Id Co-founders Carmack and Romero Respond to Microsoft's Layoffs (ign.com)
- Reference: 0184421446
- News link: https://games.slashdot.org/story/26/07/12/058235/id-co-founders-carmack-and-romero-respond-to-microsofts-layoffs
- Source link: https://www.ign.com/articles/id-software-issues-statement-following-xbox-layoffs-says-its-back-to-the-size-it-was-when-it-made-2016s-doom
> My "Microsoft will probably be a good steward of the brand" statement isn't aging well, and this is certainly going to dampen the mood of the founder reunion at QuakeCon next month.
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> I'm saddened, but I can't muster anger or outrage over it. I don't have access to the books, but I suspect that Id Software was a marginal business from Microsoft's perspective. I believe the reports that Minecraft revenues have been carrying several other studios.
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> To continue being produced long term, games need to succeed, not just be beloved. Games are competing with every other option for spending your leisure time and money, and the competition is brutal. You can't rule out the possibility that executives are idiots, but that shouldn't be your default belief. I don't think there is any obvious path that would have doubled the revenue from Id games.
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> Could they have gotten more with a different pricing strategy? Could they have created more things for fans to buy? Could they have cost effectively marketed in a way that reached more players that would have loved and bought the games? Could they have changed the game designs and broadened the appeal to more players without alienating existing ones? Could they have produced the games at a lower cost, faster or cheaper? I really don't know.
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> The game isn't over yet, and I hope the studio rallies through.
Id Software co-founder John Romero also [2]shared his thoughts on X.com :
> I'm so sorry for everyone at id Software affected by these layoffs. I know what it feels like to leave id while id goes on. It's a strange and painful thing to step away from a place that holds so much of your work, friendships and history.
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> The people at id have done a great job moving that legacy forward. DOOM, Quake, and Wolfenstein are not easy names to carry on, especially in today's industry. The last few games showed real care, skill and respect for what those worlds mean to people.
Romero also expressed his hope for "digital preservation" of Id's ongoing history (including code and assets). "I'm thinking of everyone at id today, and everyone else affected by yesterday's layoffs. Romero Games was there a year ago. I know how devastating it is, and my heart's with all of you.
"Four Xbox studios are already out the door," [3]noted IGN , but shared some thoughts about the future:
> Some have expressed concern that id Software would be unable to lead development on any new games in its current state, and that it might be relegated to support studio status. But in a new statement
[4]posted to id Software's page on X.com
id Software said it was now at the staffing level it was back when it made the much-loved 2016 Doom reboot — and insisted it was still capable of making "great games.">
> "While our studio was impacted, those changes were spread across teams. We still have the crew we need to build the games and tech we're known for... We're going to keep building the great games and tech that have defined us for the past 35 years, and we're looking forward to seeing you at QuakeCon this August."
[1] https://x.com/ID_AA_Carmack/status/2075319665564234012
[2] https://x.com/romero/status/2074432021141520860
[3] https://www.ign.com/articles/id-software-issues-statement-following-xbox-layoffs-says-its-back-to-the-size-it-was-when-it-made-2016s-doom
[4] https://x.com/idSoftware/status/2075638499412189455
ID Software their hit games are OLD ! NO NEW games (Score:3, Insightful)
They have been riding on their laurels for years ! Their latest game is still based on old game ! They haven't created anything NEW in decades ! They are deadmeat under Microsoft's heel who expects profits. What studio has done good under MS ??
The Recycling Generation. (Score:2)
New?
You say that as if a planet hasn’t been riding shotgun with Toretto through a DOZEN fucking sequels, driving furiously in search of a GTA SIX release date..
Carmack makes a good point (Score:2)
> To continue being produced long term, games need to succeed, not just be beloved.
Re: (Score:2)
There's also the issue of cost/scope. I'm not sure that Id is atypical for a studio of its age and size in terms of how its games have gotten more costly over time; but it's still very much the case that Quake was about a dozen guys crunching and Trent Reznor making creepy industrial noises; while Doom: The Dark Ages was closer to feature film level budget.
More potential players now than there were in 1996; but the production cost increase has still, on the balance, likely done bad things to your ability
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Games are succeeding. Games are selling millions of copies but that's not enough to keep the suits happy. It's enough to keep everybody who makes the games very comfortable employed but it's not enough to make the line go up.
The problem we have here is a bunch of ghouls are sucking 50 to 70% out of the economy before anyone else gets a crack at anything. So things don't have to be successful they have to be wildly incredibly mind-bogglingly successful so that they can line the pockets of the Epstein cla
Re: Carmack makes a good point (Score:2)
Oh what bullshit, the budgets for these new games are very high, and games need to be be very successful to make that budget back, and that's pretty hard these days. These big studio games need to be sold multiple millions times to make their money back, and then some to keep the studio afloat for the next game. Yeah, suits make the decision, but a studio needs to make money, it isn't a social institute, it's a business just like any other business, enough money needs to come in to survive the next game pro
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> The problem we have here is a bunch of ghouls are sucking 50 to 70% out of the economy before anyone else gets a crack at anything.
What
That's a bit of a cop out (Score:3)
> You can't rule out the possibility that executives are idiots, but that shouldn't be your default belief. I don't think there is any obvious path that would have doubled the revenue from Id games.
It doesn't need to be a default belief. We have direct evidence showing that the executives in this case are in fact very much idiots. MS went on an insane spending spree acquiring studio after studio without any plan beyond "We bought Minecraft and that made money, so this should work."
If this were a case of a single acquisition and a single layoff we may not need to blame executives. But it is a pattern that has repeated over and over again for a few years now, so at what point do we stop blaming what were very successful studios when they were running themselves for not making "all the money", and start blaming executives who seem to be able to not make any success from their acquisitions?
Re: That's a bit of a cop out (Score:3)
Oh please, layoffs like this have been rampant through the whole gaming industry, hell, every IT based industry. And MS certainly has a plan woth buying up all those studios, namely moving away from console production to game production, as consoles will go the way of the dodo, and the money had to come from selling games anyway. The current market is so full of games, people have more to choose from than time to actually play it all. The market has become oversaturated. But look at the past, it has always
"The circle of life is cruel" (Score:2)
Either you continue to be a small company and do the work you love until you grow up to keep doing it as a small company, or you sell yourself to get access to new perks, including layoffs the moment you don't generate profits compatible with what the new owner expects. A sad reality of games not made for gamers but shareholders.
(Subject is also a quote from a WoW quest)
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Microsoft spent a lot of money, they want 25% profit margins: Which for a legacy product, is not realistic. Carmack is hoping that his creation can continue to create. But a large loss of institutional knowledge requires that survivors suffer burn-out doing 2 or 3 jobs. That, is what destroys a newly acquired studio.
Technically, as long as Id Software is producing a profit, they shouldn't be making large changes. Id Software can create a new product but that means wearing the up-front cost of creatin
Romero (Score:4, Insightful)
"I know what it feels like to leave id while id goes on. It's a strange and painful thing to step away "
They aren't "stepping away" John. They are being kicked to the fucking curb
Re:Romero (Score:4, Funny)
They are being given an offer they cannot refuse of a new and exciting opportunity to go up and forward in their professional lives.
What an insightful comment... (Score:4, Insightful)
"Games are competing with every other option for spending your leisure time and money, and the competition is brutal." --John Carmack
I had never thought about games in this way before. When I fell in love with Doom (and gaming) as a teenager, I didn't have any social media & smartphones competing for my time, because they didn't exist. Lots more time for gaming. The games back then were made to reward you for investing more time in the game itself. There was a joy in it, discovering all the hidden places that rewarded you with power-ups. Finish a level only to find out you found 87% of the secrets? That's when the OCD in your brain kicks in, you re-load the level, and hit spacebar on every inch of wall space you can can muster until you find that hidden BFG-9000.
Today's "games" don't try to reward you in that classic sense anymore. They've turned gameplay into a casino, where you grind away for six hours hoping for that rare-item drop. They can't beat the addictive components that make up social media, so instead they incorporated some of them into the gameplay...If you can't beat 'em, join 'em, I guess. The only winning move is not to play.
Re: What an insightful comment... (Score:3)
Not to mention, as a kid playing Doom you either had to find the BFG or your friend Timâ(TM)s older brother could tell you the secret. Today, a million youtubers have already done full 100% letâ(TM)s plays, and every secret, 100% completion, unlock, etc., is a quick google or gpt search away.
I loved adventure games. The genre just isnâ(TM)t viable today. So many of the old hallmarks of games just donâ(TM)t work or make sense anymore. I donâ(TM)t even think thatâ(TM)s necessaril
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> They've turned gameplay into a casino, where you grind away for six hours hoping for that rare-item drop.
And that is the future Microsoft is looking at.
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Today's "games" don't try to reward you in that classic sense anymore.
this still happens today. you have people competing to "platinum" a game and get all of their trophies. exactly the same thing.
if you prefer percentages, big open world games do the same. i recall working very hard to get 100% with gta 5 and rdr 1, the only 2 games i have ever gotten 100%
Less competition (Score:1)
Microsoft fired all the engine programmers except one guy for id. This means that if you need a advanced engine and you don't have the money to build it yourself the only option is going to ever be unreal. It is painfully obvious Microsoft should not have been allowed to buy id software because of the effect on the engine market. But here we are.
The blue haired college girls were never coming for your games. Gamer gate was always bullshit cooked up by Jeffrey Epstein. The people coming for your games ar
Impending DOOM (Score:2)
C-Suite idiots or not, it seems when Microsoft gets its hands on something DOOM and gloom is the eventual outcome for the acquired.
Ok sure (Score:3)
Certainly appreciate the history of these two in the industry but Romero was canned, what, like 30 years ago because of ego issues? He obviously didn't care about the places legacy that much. Both of them are ego monsters tbh so they really must be soaking in folks asking them for their opinions here.
Carmack also didn't have to sell to Zenimax in the first place and if they were in need of an acquisition to survive then it would have been him making those layoffs instead. He also apparently made the call that Bethesda couldn't use id's engines for Elder Scrolls or Fallout, probably a mistake in the long term i think driven by ego as id had just as much if not more success as a tool develop than a game developer. And then he goes to work for Facebook of all places and threw his lot 100% with Zuck and Palmer Luckey. A talented programmer but obviously suspect judgement. He got his money.
There's a Ship Of Theseus question with game studios, once you've replaced all the key members is it still the same besides the name?
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I'm actually kindof flattered that I have triggered you to such a degree that you are doing this. Anyway, what country are you from?
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I heard Lindsey Graham died from a gay hookup gone wrong.
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I hate to say but people do change. Age brings regrets. As you said he was a good programmer, but that didn't translate well into knowing the business. You get burned out one day, yell "Sure I will sell it to Microsoft for a billion" and then it leads into a deal. Facebook maybe is excessive but Zuck is trying his best with VR oculas matter how unprofitable it is. If you could see regret/mistakes after a decision, I doubt there ever be wars in the first place.
Still, ZeniMax though. Maybe it was the le
Re: (Score:1)
"Groundbreaking" never was MS's forte, they typically let startups test ideas and then buy or swipe an idea when it catches on.