Gas Stove Makers Quietly Delete Air Pollution Warnings as They Fight Mandatory Health Labels (grist.org)
- Reference: 0179313850
- News link: https://news.slashdot.org/story/25/09/17/1211234/gas-stove-makers-quietly-delete-air-pollution-warnings-as-they-fight-mandatory-health-labels
- Source link: https://grist.org/accountability/gas-stove-makers-quietly-delete-air-pollution-warnings-as-they-fight-mandatory-health-labels/
> That claim is at the heart of a lawsuit the Association of Home Appliance Manufacturers has filed against the state of Colorado to stop it from requiring natural gas stoves, which burn methane, to carry health labels not unlike those on every pack of cigarettes. "Understand the air quality implications of having an indoor gas stove," the warning would read.
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> The law was to take effect August 5 but is now on hold, and state officials did not respond to a request for comment. In its federal lawsuit, the Association -- whose board includes representatives of LG Electronics, BSH Home Appliance Corp. (which makes Bosch appliances), Whirlpool, and Samsung Electronics -- asserts that the labeling requirement is "unconstitutional compelled speech" and illegal under the First Amendment. It calls the legislation a climate law disguised as a health law and, most strikingly, it claims there is "no association between gas stoves and adverse health outcomes."
[1] https://grist.org/accountability/gas-stove-makers-quietly-delete-air-pollution-warnings-as-they-fight-mandatory-health-labels/
Sigh. (Score:5, Insightful)
No, no, that's fine.
You've just testified before a court of law that there are no adverse health effects. Noted. You all stand by that statement, right?
Because then when the lawsuits start to fly, not only can you be charged with whatever charge it would be, we can add perjury to the list too.
[1]https://www.theguardian.com/en... [theguardian.com]
[1] https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2024/oct/28/pollutants-from-gas-stoves-kill-40000-europeans-each-year-report-finds
Safety reasons (Score:3)
Gas stoves/ovens are being banned around the world, to prevent houses catching fire. It's a very rare event but electric heating is much less dangerous. This means everyone needs a portable gas-stove or barbecue stove (and lamp) for the stormy/windy season.
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Anytime you make heat you can have a fire. Given that the overwhelming number of Americans would rather die than cook, I doubt cooktops, ovens, and ranges are causing a significant number of fires. Me? I prefer cooking on electric coils but I also have a gas range, and it's fine.
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While technically true, the odds of any fires started by induction ranges is orders of magnitude smaller than even conventional electric ranges. In fact in terms of general family safety and being burned by the stove when it is turned off, induction ranges are the only way to go.
That said, I have a gas range presently and have no plans to replace it anytime soon.
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> Anytime you make heat you can have a fire. Given that the overwhelming number of Americans would rather die than cook, I doubt cooktops, ovens, and ranges are causing a significant number of fires. Me? I prefer cooking on electric coils but I also have a gas range, and it's fine.
"Cooking caused an average of 158,400 reported home structure fires per year (44 percent of all reported home fires in the US). These fires resulted in an average of 470 civilian deaths (18 percent of all home fire deaths) and 4,150 civilian injuries (42 percent of all reported home fire injuries) annually. Ranges or cooktops were involved in 53 percent of the reported home cooking fires, 88 percent of cooking fire deaths, and 74 percent of cooking fire injuries. Households with electric ranges had a highe
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And what exactly does this mean? The implication that I was responding to was that the range itself had a failure in it, which caused a fire. If I deep fry potatoes and don't cook them properly, the oil boils over and starts a grease fire, that's operator error NOT a failure in the electric or gas range. Who is the cretin here, exactly? Not me.
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My aunt went on vaction. Her cat turned on the electric stove and it burned her house down. I have an iduction range. If you turn it on it will "search" for metal and if none is found in 30 seconds it turns itself off. No heat generated. Just some magnets cycling.
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I simply switch the circuit off when I go away.
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> Gas stoves/ovens are being banned around the world, to prevent houses catching fire.
That is a worthy, but ultimately small, side benefit. (There's also eliminating the [1]risk of explosions [wikipedia.org], which seems pretty obvious.)
The real benefits are, as this article points out, not having methane in your indoor air, nor the byproducts of indoor combustion (CO2, NOx, and - especially if the combustion is poor and incomplete - CO and soot). And before the nay-sayers crow "those are all the result of shoddy insta
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ronan_Point&oldid=1311729076
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> Finally, there is reduced cost to the end user: an electrified home doesn't need a separate gas hookup and internal gas plumbing, which reduces construction cost; nor does it have a gas meter or gas utility bill. Electricity prices are much less volatile than natural gas'. Many residences can generate their own electricity via solar, which is substantially cheaper than what you'll get from the utility.
While that might work for those in mild climates an all electric house is impractical for any region that sees snow on the ground regularly.
My older sister and her husband live where snow is pretty rare so they have an air source heat pump as the primary heat, electric resistance heat as backup, and a nice wood stove because they like how it looks and wood to feed it is cheap and plentiful for them than any real need for it to stay warm. Here in the Midwest USA though the size of electrical service to meet
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It's a very rare event but electric heating is much less dangerous.
You might think that. However, from [1]this Home cooking fires [nfpa.org] report, Ranges or cooktops were involved in 53 percent of the reported home cooking fires, 88 percent of cooking fire deaths, and 74 percent of cooking fire injuries. Households with electric ranges had a higher risk of cooking fires and associated losses than those with gas ranges .
I just found that with a quick search, so I haven't read the report in detail to look into nuances or
[1] https://www.nfpa.org/education-and-research/research/nfpa-research/fire-statistical-reports/home-cooking-fires
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That's an interesting link, thank you.
The "nuances or causal factors" do show up -- somewhat -- farther down that report:
> It is sometimes less obvious when an electric burner is turned on or is still hot than it is with gas burners. In addition, once turned off, it takes time for an electric burner to cool. UL 858, Household Electric Ranges, which took effect in June of 2018, includes requirements for electric coil ranges to prevent the ignition of cooking oil. Compliance may be demonstrated by either not igniting cooking oil in a cast iron pan or keeping the average temperature of the inside bottom surface of the pan below or equal to 725F (385C). All electrical coil ranges being manufactured now must meet these requirements. Because ranges last a long time, it could be years before these safer ranges become common in US homes.
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I can believe that with traditional electric ranges. But induction should mitigate all off that. A boil over of oil will hit no heat source to ignite. There are no elements to hold heat like electric coils. Without a pan no heat is generated if they are turned or left on. So I'd believe in terms of risk it could be electric, gas, induction in that order.
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> Gas stoves/ovens are being banned around the world, to prevent houses catching fire.
Errr no. Can you cite an example of a place that has banned gas stoves due to fire risk specifically? I've never heard of that. It's mentioned occasionally as a side note, but I know plenty of places that are banning gas stoves for several other reasons:
a) policy to eliminate gas use.
b) reduction in CO2 emissions (electrification + greening of the grid).
c) health.
How about instead (Score:2)
How about spend the money that would be spent on lawyers, legalfights etc and put out those canadian wildfires? Seeing the often hazy horizon, they're turning rural areas into smoggy inner cities. The pm2.5 and 10 are sometimes concerning.
Digressing, If anything these stoves should have carbon monoxide warnings, right? "Air pollution" ?
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Its actually nitrogen dioxide that is the biggest polluter from gas stoves, though I'm sure it depends on both the purity of the gas and your stove.
This should go well. (Score:2)
I definitely can't imagine any issues running a functional market economy under the theory that the first amendment allows you to make or conceal any claim you like about a product.
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You are referring to the market failure known as [1]information asymmetry. [wikipedia.org]
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_asymmetry
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> I definitely can't imagine any issues running a functional market economy under the theory that the first amendment allows you to make or conceal any claim you like about a product.
If we have to warn people of every tiny possible chance of harm then we get the laughable labeling requirements where nearly everything has a "product contains chemicals that are known in California to cause cancer" warning. The labels are so ubiquitous that they get ignored. The California government wanted these labels on bottled water that had highly purified water with a pinch of salt to control for pH or something. Teeny tiny amounts of arsenic could be detected in the water so California wanted war
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First amendment has long been held to not apply to commercial speech the way it does to other speech.
Vesuvius of Laughter v. Pompeii of Philosophers (Score:1)
Well, what does the actual [smirks uncontrollably for a half-second] science say about this? Surely such a pragmatic matter won't be [purses lips forcefully for two seconds] politicized by culture warriors with a [exhales spasmodically] ulterior agenda to push?
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Do you really think that CO or NOx or excess CO2, in a modern tightly sealed house, are particularly good for you? Not to mention the global climate system?
More About Sending Gas to Europe (Score:2)
When Europe had a gas shortage because of Russia, suddenly, natural gas was he devil. Here in California, Pacific Gas & Explosion cannot seem to handle gas, or electricity without killing people.
No 1st amendment (Score:2)
This is no different than requiring the manufacturer to include a warning about the stove tipping over if there is no anti-tipping bracket installed. Consumers are being warned of the issue.
If they're going to whine about this, might as well whine about every other warning they are required to provide with their product.
house label (Score:2)
Maybe we need warning labels on houses that are so air-tight that they do not offer adequate ventilation for comubustion by-products of gas stoves. To be posted at front and back doors.
For those getting pitchforks ready (Score:5, Insightful)
I'll explain. New home or apartment construction is more air tight than it used to be and companies cheap out and don't install real exhaust vents over stoves. Just a fan and a cheap filter. Now what happens when you burn hydrocarbons in an enclosed space? You get byproducts that tend to be harmful to air breathers. See this article for more info. [1]https://www.scientificamerican... [scientificamerican.com]
For those still angry, let me tell you about the miracle of induction cooking. If the three Michelin star restaurant French Laundry can use induction, so can you.
[1] https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-health-risks-of-gas-stoves-explained/
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I love my induction and won't go back, I can make my coffee in my mokapot in 2 minutes flat and subsidize the cost with solar and still cook a fine hollandaise or use a wok.
If you have a gas stove and think there's no pollution, I recommend you get a cheap air quality detection that does PM and TVOC and etc and then tell us there's no pollution.
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I love my induction too, but you need an externally-venting range hood anyway.
Take your cheap air quality detector and sear a steak on your induction without the fan on.
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When you cook something at high temperatures you let off particulate.
The point is you are putting off less in an enclosed area if you're not burning hydrocarbon based fuel, or are you saying something different that I'm not understanding?
Never let perfect be the enemy of good (Score:2)
I think the idea here is that yeah it's bad to breathe in cooking fumes even the stuff coming off what you're cooking but it's still better to reduce those fumes by not using gas unless you have proper ventilation.
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Correction, you don't NEEEEDDDD it , but its certainly a highly recommended item to have because it addresses smoke/fumes/odors/etc... But most homes do not have an externally venting hood..(there is no legal requirement to have one)
Re: For those getting pitchforks ready (Score:2)
Flat bottom pans, certainly, but I'm still not convinced you can properly use a proper wok on an induction hob.
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Well yes, induction requires an area to induct, inverse square law applies etc. You'd have to do this yourself I guess since I'm not going to convince you, I have a proper wok with a small area flat bottom and use it on an induction stove top all the time. You can find videos of wok experts even seasoning a new wok on an induction - [1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=uDx9wym1NmM [youtube.com] or specific dish [2]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OuBQywzTO0 [youtube.com].
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=uDx9wym1NmM
[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OuBQywzTO0
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Coffee in a moka pot takes 3 minutes on an electric stove ...
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I do it in that or less on my gas stove, and I need to use a smaller flame to match the pot size.
On my my list of worries, death by gas stove emissions is pretty low.
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New home or apartment construction is more air tight than it used to be and companies cheap out and don't install real exhaust vents over stoves.
I've heard this touted as the reasoning, and it seems plausible at first glance, but I don't that better ventilation is going to make a significant difference for the following reasons:
1) In my personal experience, people tend to only turn on vents when what they are cooking is smelly or smoky in some way. The hazards as I understand them are from the burning met
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1) A lot places require an if the lights are on the fan is on or even an always-on bathroom fan exchaust fan ducted outside now. You could easily require appliances to have a relay to trigger the hood fan.
2) Ok study it, we pay taxes, this one seems like a useful activity. Sure there will be some extremist that object because there always is but I can't really imagine even the more right-leaning political operators would mount a whole lot opposition to investigating the safety of appliances found in just
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If you have induction, how do you feel about the sound of the range? I still have an ancient gas burner (though I did install a good ventilation fan), but when I've cooked on an induction stove elsewhere, it both made an annoying high-pitched squeal (think old CRTs but louder) and had fan noises kicking on and off. It annoyed the crap out of me.
I don't want to get another gas burner, and technologically induction does seem like the clear winner, but the noise thing is really throwing me off. What's your exp
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My only experience with induction is at the house of a family member, but I've never noticed any sound like that coming from their range. I used to be able to hear CRTs, but perhaps I've lost that part of my hearing in middle age. Not sure; haven't been around CRTs in a long time. But I have a really annoying USB wall adapter that I can hear whining.
Re: For those getting pitchforks ready (Score:2)
I've heard the squeals. In my experience, they can happen if the bottom of the pan isn't flat to the cooking surface. Sometimes, merely reorienting the pan or slightly adjusting the power level will make it stop. Once, a metal spoon was the problem and removing it was the trick.
However, also in my experience, the squealing is very, very rare. Perhaps you've just been unlucky in hearing it so often. ðY
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I love my induction. It 'clicks' on high but who cares? I'm cooking stuff is sizziling and things are making noise. The control over the heat is amazing, the bridging is great. I can boil water faster than anything. I'm never going back.
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If you cook in a wok you need gas.
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> If you cook in a wok you need gas.
Bollocks. You can use a modestly flat-bottomed wok (made of carbon steel) on an induction burner. You can also purchase counter-top induction burners meant to receive spherical-bottomed woks. Five seconds of Google, my friend.
Or are you referring to the jet engine burners you find in a Chinese restaurant? Do you have one of those at home? Got a fryolator, too? Restaurants have all kinds of equipment that home kitchens don't.
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You've probably never actually cooked in a wok. To make the types of cuisine that are typically cooked in a wok requires temperatures that electric elements (induction or otherwise) just can't reach.
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You're correct. Most home stoves, even gas, are useless for true wok cooking. Buy a [1]wok stand [google.com] for a propane tank and cook outside.
[1] https://www.google.com/search?&q=wok+stand+propane
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I have an induction oven that can melt the steel your wok is made of.
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You have an induction range.
Most of the oven parts are just normal convection ovens, though some are infrared. That means it's just a normal electric heating element and a fan. it might be fancy and have a top fan to force air down like an air fryer, but it could just be marketing BS and having convection = air fry.
The latest marketing BS I've seen is "air sous-vide". AKA a normal oven. Sous-vide works because water holds temperature better than air, and the food won't be overcooked because it is only broug
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It is an induction furnace, actually, made specifically to melt metal.
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No, you don't.
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> You've probably never actually cooked in a wok. To make the types of cuisine that are typically cooked in a wok requires temperatures that electric elements (induction or otherwise) just can't reach.
I do, in fact, cook with a wok on occasion. But I don't consider myself an expert, nor do I have one of the countertop units I mentioned.
On the other hand: [1]these guys [youtube.com] do fancy themselves experts (for what that's worth on the Internet), and readily demonstrate several styles of wok cooking using these count
[1] https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=induction+wok
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I can heat my carbon steel pans to 600F in about 70 seconds on my induction range. I can boil my largest pot of water in 3 minutes.
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> real exhaust vents
I'll do you one better. In many parts of the world actual exhaust vents in the kitchen preclude you from having a high energy rating as it is air replacement without heat exchange. In many parts of the cold world which cares about home efficiency, you will have a recirculating range with a carbon filter. The only exhaust happens with central air handling in the house via a heat exchanger, and that typically triggers on CO2 and moisture, not on PM2.5, VOC, or NO2.
In many cases people need to manually crank u
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> I'll do you one better.
Why is Gamora?!?!?
But they never ask, "how is Gamora?" :^(
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> New home or apartment construction is more air tight than it used to be and companies cheap out and don't install real exhaust vents over stoves. Just a fan and a cheap filter.
If someone is going to "cheap out" on new construction for a home or apartment then they will not install a gas stove. By comparison it is more expensive to run a gas pipe to a kitchen than a 40 amp (or whatever) 240 VAC circuit, if only because by running the pipe they need to call in another contractor to run the pipe than just have the same electrician that is putting in the lights also install an outlet for the stove. Gas stoves may be cheaper than electric resistance but that is almost always offset
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> Any new home will have to meet building code on ventilation if it has a gas stove.
Which is a good idea. But only for gas stoves? Have you ever seen the air inside an all electric kitchen when someone forgets to turn on the fan? Forget the relatively small amounts of CO2, CO, NO2 that come from a gas flame: Take a look at the stuff that comes off the food. An assortment of burned, partially burned or just vaporized organic molecules. It's doubtful that any of this stuff is healthy to inhale. And only the largest grease particles stand a chance of being trapped by a recirculating filter fa
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> Which is a good idea. But only for gas stoves?
Apparently. I'll see hoods over stoves but they vent back into the kitchen, running the air through some kind of filter than I doubt gets cleaned often enough. I'm quite a bit taller than average so to me these fans just blow the exhaust into my face, something I find undesirable on many levels.
> It's doubtful that any of this stuff is healthy to inhale. And only the largest grease particles stand a chance of being trapped by a recirculating filter fan.
I doubt this is an actual thing but it's possible that a recirculating stove hood could have a catalytic converter like ventless fireplaces to remove any toxic fumes. I'll see people that believe ventless fireplac