Unpublished Slashdot Submission Dragged Into Reddit Drama About C++ Paper's Title
- Reference: 0175534405
- News link: https://meta.slashdot.org/story/24/11/24/2055208/unpublished-slashdot-submission-dragged-into-reddit-drama-about-c-papers-title
- Source link:
Back on Reddit's C++ subreddit (which has 300,000 members), a " [4]direct appeal " was submitted to the moderators to unlock Reddit's earlier discussion (drawing over 100 upvotes). But there's one problem with this drama, as Slashdot reader [5]brantondaveperson [6]pointed out . "There appears to be no independent confirmation of this story anywhere. The only references to it are this Slashdot story, and a Reddit story. Neither cite sources or provide evidence." This drew [7]a response from the person submitting the potential story to Slashdot:
> You raise a valid point. The communication around this was private. The complaint about the [paper's] title, the author's response, and the decision to expel were all communicated by either private email, on private mailing lists or in private in-person meetings. These private communications could be quoted by participants in said communications. Please let us know if that would be sufficient.
The paper had already drawn some criticism in a [8]longer blog post by programmer Izzy Muerte (which called it "a fucking cleaned up transcript of a ChatGPT conversation".) It's one of six papers [9]submitted this year by Tomaszos to the ISO's "WG21" C++ committee. Tomazos (according to his [10]LinkedIn profile ) is "lead programmer" of videogame company Fury Games ( [11]founded by him and his wife). It also shows an earlier two-year stint as a Google senior software engineer.
There were two people claiming direct knowledge of the situation posting on Reddit. A user named kritzikratzi [12]posted :
> I contacted Andrew Tomazos directly. According to him the title "The Undefined Behavior Question" caused complaints inside WG21. The Standard C++ Foundation then offered two choices (1) change the paper title (2) be expelled. Andrew Tomazos chose (2).
A Reddit user Dragdu [13]posted :
> He wasn't expelled for that paper, but rather this was the last straw. And he wasn't banned from the [WG21] committee, that is borderline impossible, but rather the organization he was representing told him to fuck off and don't represent them anymore. If he can find different organization to represent, he can still attend... Tomazos has been on lot of people's shit list, because his contributions suck... He decided that the title is too important to his ViSiOn for the chatgpt BS submitted as a paper, and that he won't change the title. This was the straw that broke the camel's back and his "sponsor" told him to fuck off....
There was also some back-and-forth [14]on Hacker News .
> bun_terminator: r/cpp mods just woke up, banning everyone who question... this lunatic behavior.
>
> (Reddit moderator): We did not go on a banning spree, we banned only one person, you. After removing the comment where you insulted someone, I checked your history, noticed that you did not meaningfully participate in r/cpp outside this thread, and decided to remove someone from the community who'd only be there to cause trouble.
[1] https://slashdot.org/submission/17330375/c-standards-contributor-expelled-for-the-undefined-behavior-question
[2] https://www.reddit.com/r/cpp/comments/1gyiwwc/c_standards_contributor_expelled_for_the/
[3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42226250
[4] https://www.reddit.com/r/cpp/comments/1gyo81u/a_direct_appeal_to_ufoonathan_to_unlock_the/
[5] https://www.slashdot.org/~brantondaveperson
[6] https://slashdot.org/comments.pl?cid=64967945&sid=23530261&tid=384
[7] https://slashdot.org/comments.pl?cid=64967945&sid=23530261&tid=384
[8] https://izzys.casa/2024/11/on-safe-cxx/
[9] https://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2024/#mailing2024-09
[10] https://www.linkedin.com/in/tomazos/
[11] https://fury.games/about
[12] https://www.reddit.com/r/cpp/comments/1gyo81u/a_direct_appeal_to_ufoonathan_to_unlock_the/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
[13] https://old.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1gynl1v/c_standards_contributor_expelled_for_the/lyq647s/
[14] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42226250#42226376
Maybe I'm just not caffeinated enough... (Score:4, Interesting)
I read through that entire summary, but I still have no idea what this is actually about.
Re: (Score:2)
Been a while since Slashdot got involved in internet drama, though.
Feels nice.
The Unpublished Submission (Score:2)
Maybe they should have published it in TFS at least, to avoid such confusion:
> [1]suntzu3000 [slashdot.org] writes:
>> Andrew Tomazos, a long-time contributor to the ISO C++ standards committee, recently published a technical paper titled [2] The Undefined Behavior Question [open-std.org]. The paper explores the semantics of undefined behavior in C++ and examines this topic in the context of related research. However, controversy arose regarding the paper's title.
>>
>> Some critics pointed out similarities between the title and Karl Marx's 1844 essay [3] On The Jewish Question [marxists.org], as well as the historical implications of the [4]Jewish Question [wikipedia.org], a term associated with debates and events leading up to World War II. This led to accusations that the title was "historically insensitive."
>>
>> In response to requests to change the title, Mr. Tomazos declined, stating that "We cannot allow such an important word as 'question' to become a form of hate speech." He argued that the term was used in its plain, technical sense and had no connection to the historical context cited by critics.
>>
>> Following this decision, Mr. Tomazos was expelled from the Standard C++ Foundation, and his membership in the ISO WG21 C++ Standards Committee was revoked.
[1] https://meta.slashdot.org/~suntzu3000
[2] https://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2024/p3403r0.pdf
[3] https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/jewish-question/
[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_question
Re: (Score:2)
Me: Should I learn Rust now or brush up on modern C++?
Me: /reads this about paranoid Leftists running C++/
Me: Well that settles it.
It appears that the White House warning about unsafe languages has driven the C++ community mad.
This installment is just the latest example.
I don't even care technically. A safe subset of C++ would have been welcome by almost everybody. Like I haven't had to update codebases a dozen times to get warning-free compiles. 95% of those warnings were legit too.
"Asking tough question
Re: (Score:2)
I didn't know about that Marx essay, but I'm certainly offended by the C++ paper title, because it reminds me of the [1]Karelian question [wikipedia.org]. I really wanted to be a C++ programmer, but now I'm forced to stay away from the language that disrespects my Karelian roots.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karelian_question
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
There is a small NGO called "The Standard C++ foundation" [1]https://isocpp.org/about [isocpp.org] . One director is Stroustrup, one funder is Microsoft. Andrew Tomazos is a programmer paid by them to work on the C++ standard. Tomazos wrote a paper entitled "On undefined behavior question".
The paper is the transcript of a conversation with ChatGPT, where he asks questions like "give examples of UB in C++", "how should C++26 answer The Question" [2]https://wg21.link/p3403 [wg21.link]
(My opinion is) the paper is an obvious piece of shit. W
[1] https://isocpp.org/about
[2] https://wg21.link/p3403
Re: (Score:2)
> Tomazos wrote a paper entitled "On undefined behavior question".
Actually entitled [1]The Undefined Behavior Question [open-std.org].
I'm beginning to think that some people's need to appear slighted are making them see offenses that aren't really there. I'm leaving it up to the reader as to whether I think C++ needs more work or I'm being anti-Semitic. Go ahead. You have two opportunities.
[1] https://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2024/#mailing2024-09
The explanation (Score:1, Troll)
Someone submitted [1]a paper [open-std.org] with the title "The Undefined Behavior Question". It talks about about whether an undefined behaviour in the C++ language should affect the visible results of previous code; ie - whether undefined behaviour should have visible side effects. (I think, it's pretty... um... well, let's just say that's the impression I got.)
The title was thought to be too close to "The Jewish Question", a hot topic of debate in the 19th and 20th century, culminating in Nazi Germany with the "Final Solu
[1] https://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2024/p3403r0.pdf
Re: (Score:1)
So no one can call anything "The X Question" (where X = anything) ever again??
Re: (Score:2)
Yeah, I have no idea. It’s like the summary was written by Vicky Pollard from Little Britain [1]https://youtu.be/K4vgtBHpA1I?s... [youtu.be]
[1] https://youtu.be/K4vgtBHpA1I?si=Bv8T7wwzCUGyZGHb
Re: (Score:2)
Interesting that the C++ committee is so well-versed on Marx the they would even know to make the connection.
Re: (Score:2)
No it's not "interesting". I instantly saw it like that because it's really fucking well known. Don't pretend that it isn't and the committee are somehow Marxists (as that somehow matters) for spotting something that's obvious.
Anyway someone had a private word and he chose that full to die on, and die on that hill he did.
See the thing is if you write something with unintended connotations, that's fine. If you are told about them and insist on sticking to them, then they are no longer unintended. You at that
Sounds like ... (Score:2)
... it's the Night of the Long Cancel Culture over at the Standard C++ Foundation.
Don't post drivel like this (Score:4, Insightful)
Seriously. This is pure garbage. Who cares what's going on at Reddit. If I cared, I'd be over there. I'm sure there had to be something better to post then this.
Re: (Score:2)
Hehe, it's like an infomercial - "Wait, there's more ..."
This seems like garbage (Score:2)
It's just idiot drama. I'd love more activity on Slashdot, but not with unnewsworthy crap.
WTF is going on? (Score:2)
Where is the story? Is there a story? Is the story that someone is having an internet argument about something that never made it to Slashdot? Like really WTF is this incoherent psychobabble?
This has got to be the most dysfunctional summary of what sounds like a dysfunctional story I've ever seen on Slashdot.
Re: (Score:2)
> Where is the story? Is there a story?
I take it the story is that /. had a brief brush with relevancy for a hot minute.
Re: (Score:2)
Seriously, yes. I was already feeling mentally fatigued by the time I reached the start of the second paragraph. I think that a personal record, for Slashdot articles.
Re: (Score:2)
"...I think that's a personal record..."
Yeah... no, let's not do this (Score:3)
Let's not do this. Not here, nor anywhere.