News: 0175457321

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US Senate To Revive Software Patents With PERA Bill Vote On Thursday (eff.org)

(Tuesday November 12, 2024 @05:50PM (msmash) from the up-next dept.)


[1]zoobab writes:

> The US Senate to set to revive Software Patents with the PERA Bill, with a vote on Thursday, November 14, 2024.

>

> A crucial Senate Committee is on the cusp of voting on two bills that would resurrect some of the most egregious software patents and embolden patent trolls. The Patent Eligibility Restoration Act (PERA), S. 2140, would dismantle vital safeguards that prohibit software patents on overly broad concepts. If passed, courts would be compelled to approve software patents on mundane activities like mobile food ordering or basic online financial transactions. This would unleash a torrent of vague and overbroad software patents, which would be wielded by patent trolls to extort small businesses and individuals.

>

> The EFF is [2]inviting members of the public to contact their Senators.



[1] https://slashdot.org/~zoobab

[2] https://act.eff.org/action/tell-congress-we-can-t-afford-more-bad-patents



Yeah, right. (Score:5, Insightful)

by Black Parrot ( 19622 )

> The EFF is inviting members of the public to contact their Senators.

Be sure to offer them more money than the lobbyists did.

Patents should have a litmus test. (Score:2)

by lsllll ( 830002 )

Gather 5 people in the field who have never heard of the patent or its solution and propose the problem to them. If 3/5 come up with a similar way to do the thing, then the patent should not be granted.

Re: (Score:3, Funny)

by Anonymous Coward

That's a great idea. We'll call it the 3/5ths compromise.

Re: (Score:2)

by GoTeam ( 5042081 )

> That's a great idea. We'll call it the 3/5ths compromise.

... yikes

Re: (Score:3, Informative)

by ClickOnThis ( 137803 )

Patents can't be obvious, and they can't be prior art. It is not clear to me how the current bill threatens those criteria, but sorry, I haven't read it.

Your 3/5 proposal is unworkable. It could take years to develop a patent. You can't ask 5 practitioners to spend that much of their lives creating something that won't even be used. Instead, a patent application is assigned to an examiner whose job is to compare the claims in the patent to those that exist already, either in other patents or in open literat

Re:Patents should have a litmus test. (Score:5, Informative)

by lsllll ( 830002 )

I understand about the complex patents you're referring to, but I'm talking about trivial patents, like those in TFS. "Mobile food ordering" should just not be patentable, because it's straightforward. You show a selection, people put things in cart, pay, and expect delivery. You can do all sorts of addons, like pay more for faster service, accept coupons, opt for "green" delivery via bike, repeat my order every Tuesday, give another copy of my food to a homeless shelter, etc. None of those should be patentable.

Re: (Score:2)

by ClickOnThis ( 137803 )

You don't patent ideas. You patent systems.

You can't just patent a food-ordering app. You need to describe the entire system around the app that allows it to function. It may not seem complex, but it's definitely not "trivial."

Re: (Score:2)

by suutar ( 1860506 )

_You_ don't patent ideas. Companies try to all the time and the patent office sometimes lets them

Re: (Score:2)

by mysidia ( 191772 )

You need to describe the entire system around the app that allows it to function.

Which is trivial, because there are only a few straightforward ways to accomplish a Food ordering app.

The exercise is Not invention of a food ordering app. It's Invention of patent language.

And by the time you are done drafting the language your claims will be broad enough to cover any app that lets consumers order services at retail.

Patents are already written in this deliberately overbroad language designed to expand the c

Re: (Score:2)

by Kiddo 9000 ( 5893452 )

This is a good idea, but you forget that government bureaucracy would result in this process lasting until the heat death of the universe.

Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

by ClickOnThis ( 137803 )

> This is what ya'll voted for.

We're still in the Biden administration, dickhead. Not that I'm looking forward to the next one.

Re: (Score:1)

by Anonymous Coward

> We're still in the Biden administration

Y'all voted for that one too! All the pain is self inflicted.

Re: No bitching (Score:2)

by KermodeBear ( 738243 )

The new administration doesn't enter office for a few more months, but okay.

Re: No bitching (Score:2)

by ArmoredDragon ( 3450605 )

Reminds me of that time when some Muslim dude couldn't go to Disneyland right after the Trump election and both he and the mass media blamed it on his Muslim ban, even though he wouldn't even be in office for another few weeks and couldn't possibly have done anything to instigate that.

Or like how in the 2004 primaries all of the Democratic candidates were throwing around "Bush caused a loss of three million jobs" ad nauseum even though that particular recession had begun the December prior to his inaugurati

Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

by coopertempleclause ( 7262286 )

I'm not even from the US, and even I know that the senators that started in 2023 will be there until 2025.

Re: (Score:3)

by ZipNada ( 10152669 )

> started in 2023 will be there until 2025

US senators have 6 year terms of office, not 2 years.

[1]https://www.senate.gov/about/o... [senate.gov]

[1] https://www.senate.gov/about/origins-foundations/senate-and-constitution/term-lengths.htm

Re: (Score:3)

by ThumpBzztZoom ( 6976422 )

In Kentucky, the senators are known, but that doesn't help. If Rand Paul or Mitch McConnell had a non-zero chance at listening to any non-large-scale-donor constituent, or doing anything but what fits their agenda, it might be worth it. In reality, there could not be a more useless activity than expressing an opinion to them.

Re:Senate (Score:4, Insightful)

by ravenshrike ( 808508 )

Posts like this are why we need Civics classes in school.

Civics (Score:3)

by JBMcB ( 73720 )

I'm a fan of watching police bodycam videos and court videos on Youtube. What is striking is how few young people understand how the legal system works. I mean, at all. They don't understand how courts work, they don't understand how hearings work, they don't know what police can and can't do. This is all basic stuff we covered in my freshman civics class in high school.

Re: (Score:2)

by KiltedKnight ( 171132 )

> "members of the public to contact their Senators."

> It might help if we knew who our senators were. We've just had an election, and the results haven't been certified yet.

Senators elected in November, 2024, will not be sworn in and seated until January 3, 2025. For now, contact the one who was not up for election or the one who ran for reelection, whether that person won or lost the bid.

citizens united, the gift that keeps giving (Score:4)

by sdinfoserv ( 1793266 )

Yet more fallout from legal bribery known as Citizens United. The SCOTUS decision that equites political donation as the right to petition.

Re:citizens united, the gift that keeps giving (Score:4, Informative)

by Zak3056 ( 69287 )

> The SCOTUS decision that equites political donation as the right to petition.

Citizens United was about the broadcast of a film before an election, where the film was an advocacy piece against one of the candidates. That's, unequivocally speech, and political speech at that, obviously protected by the first amendment.

While Justice Stevens' dissent does raise some excellent points, the solution to those is a constitutional amendment, not SCOTUS ignoring the plain language of the constitution. "Congress shall make no law... abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press" is unambiguous. To decide otherwise would create a situation where e.g. the New York Times (a corporate entity) was not protected by the freedom of the press.

Re: (Score:2)

by DarkOx ( 621550 )

Let's also not forget that even if you ignore all the important details (the left always does) and the courts holding actually was just "derp derp 1A derp you can spend unlimited money on derp campaign derp derp"

We can see clearly from this most recent election that all the money in the world, can't actually buy the office. Harris proved that however important money might be in politics past a certain point it won't move the needles. Democracy actually isn't for sale.

Re: (Score:2)

by ravenshrike ( 808508 )

Harris' campaign burned through over 1 billion in less than 3 months and ended up 20 million in debt.

Re: (Score:2)

by dfghjk ( 711126 )

"We can see clearly from this most recent election that all the money in the world, can't actually buy the office."

We can see clearly that you can, your argument relies on a lie.

"Democracy actually isn't for sale."

Says the people who buy it.

Re: (Score:2)

by cstacy ( 534252 )

>> We can see clearly from this most recent election that all the money in the world, can't actually buy the office..

> Really? Remind me again which side had the richest person on the planet on their side?

Please cite the campaign contributions from each side and the total amount each side spent, so we can compare them. They are all documented publicly, as per the law.

I think you will find that the Democrats had huge donors, Musk didn't really do anything in that area, and that Harris outspent Trump by a huge factor.

How do you feel about when Harris was begging people for a $25 donation, and then spent millions and millions of dollars on paying for those celebrities (like Oprah, who got over a million, and th

Re: (Score:2)

by dfghjk ( 711126 )

"Citizens United was about the broadcast of a film before an election, where the film was an advocacy piece against one of the candidates. That's, unequivocally speech, and political speech at that, obviously protected by the first amendment."

Pure misinformation. The case was about unlimited campaign contributions. From [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]:

"The court held 5–4 that the freedom of speech clause of the First Amendment prohibits the government from restricting independent expenditures for

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens_United_v._FEC

Re: (Score:2)

by DarkOx ( 621550 )

> You say this because you know constitutional amendment has not been a viable remedy for any issue in many decades. More bad faith comments.

Waaah I can't get enough people to agree with me to change the process thru the mechanisms that were democratically aproved, waaah, but muh democracy...

The only people acting in bad faith are the people advocating for abandoning our ruling document without following the proper process, because they can don't like the results.

Maybe we should just take a page from you'alls playbook and call you "Il Duce"

Re: (Score:2)

by sconeu ( 64226 )

> The only people acting in bad faith are the people advocating for abandoning our ruling document without following the proper process, because they can don't like the results.

Like those who want special protections for Xtians?

Citizens United decision explained, in two words (Score:2)

by zooblethorpe ( 686757 )

"Money talks."

That's it. That's the basis of the whole decision. Money == Speech.

I happen to think that's a royal load of bullshit, but sophistry and bad argument are what the SCOTUS has been doing for years. And here we are.

Re: (Score:2)

by ClickOnThis ( 137803 )

> Enjoy all the patent wars in the near future not even linux is going to be protected

Linux is protected by copyright , not patents.

Re: (Score:2)

by ArchieBunker ( 132337 )

All it takes is a fancy RV and an Alaskan vacation to get around that.

Re: (Score:2)

by ClickOnThis ( 137803 )

Explain. I'm genuinely curious. No, really.

Re: (Score:2)

by ArchieBunker ( 132337 )

Justice Thomas was forgiven on a $250k loan for a luxury RV. [1]https://www.finance.senate.gov... [senate.gov]

Justice Alito accepted a luxury vacation from a billionaire who later had a case heard by the court. In any other instance a judge would have recused themselves from the case. Or at the minimum that would give you grounds for appeal. [2]https://www.propublica.org/art... [propublica.org]

The same court also ruled that "gratuities" are not illegal. You just have to pay your bribe after the favor is complete. [3]https://www.crowell.com/en/in [crowell.com]

[1] https://www.finance.senate.gov/chairmans-news/wyden-statement-on-clarence-thomass-forgiven-quarter-million-dollar-rv-loan

[2] https://www.propublica.org/article/samuel-alito-luxury-fishing-trip-paul-singer-scotus-supreme-court

[3] https://www.crowell.com/en/insights/client-alerts/supreme-court-rules-gratuity-insufficient-for-conviction-under-federal-bribery-law

Re: (Score:2)

by ClickOnThis ( 137803 )

Oh, I see now. Yeah, those two guys are rotten.

I think it's appropriate to fear the cabal that the Supremes may (will?) form with the White House in the months to come. Democracy hangs in the balance, folks.

Re: (Score:2)

by Cyberax ( 705495 )

That's the going rate for SCOTUS justices.

Re: (Score:2)

by Digital Avatar ( 752673 )

Linux is protected by IBM, not copyrights.

Re: (Score:2)

by ClickOnThis ( 137803 )

> Linux is protected by IBM, not copyrights.

[1]IBM certainly likes Linux, but IBM doesn't own it. [ibm.com]

IBM has contributed to Linux, and I believe it holds the copyright on its contributions. I don't think they could protect any code on which they don't hold copyright. [2]See here, under "Open source software and intellectual property." [ibm.com]

[1] https://www.ibm.com/think/topics/linux-kernel

[2] https://www.ibm.com/topics/open-source

Re: Enjoy (Score:2)

by zoobab ( 201383 )

IBM is one of the companies shadow writing this bill, together with Qualcomm. Tillis organized a press conférence years ago where it was clear who participated in the drafting.

I patent useing the letter e in software (Score:1)

by Joe_Dragon ( 2206452 )

I patent useing the letter e in software fee $00.250 per use.

And for wheel I want $250 per E

Why now? (Score:3)

by DrMrLordX ( 559371 )

Is there some reason to force this bill to the floor for a vote before the Senate and White House changes hands? What are the Dems doing?

Re: (Score:2)

by dfghjk ( 711126 )

How dare they do the work of the people. They should be like Republicans and only operate in ways that suit their grip on power.

Re: (Score:2)

by ArchieBunker ( 132337 )

> What are the Dems doing?

Perhaps you should ask republican senator Thomas Tillis who sponsored the bill. [1]https://www.congress.gov/bill/... [congress.gov]

[1] https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/senate-bill/2140

Re: (Score:2)

by Mousit ( 646085 )

> Perhaps you should ask republican senator Thomas Tillis who sponsored the bill. [1]https://www.congress.gov/bill/... [congress.gov]

Or, from your own link, ask Democrat senator Chris Coons who is [2]the bill's co-sponsor [congress.gov].

Fucking everyone over for fun and profit is one of the few things that pretty reliably receives bipartisan support.

[1] https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/senate-bill/2140

[2] https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/senate-bill/2140/cosponsors

Re: (Score:2)

by DrMrLordX ( 559371 )

This bill wouldn't make it to the floor without Schumer allowing it. Plus check the co sponsor.

Its just the committee (Score:2)

by ZipNada ( 10152669 )

These bills might get out of the Subcommittee (why does that word have so many double letters?) on Intellectual Property, but that doesn't mean they will pass in the full Senate.

[1]https://www.judiciary.senate.g... [senate.gov]

[1] https://www.judiciary.senate.gov/committee-activity/hearings/the-patent-eligibility-restoration-act_restoring-clarity-certainty-and-predictability-to-the-us-patent-system

so lets crap ourselves again...? (Score:1)

by unfriendlyLLM ( 10459763 )

Lets revive the environment that allowed patents to shield things like private sector crypto speculation.

Re: (Score:2)

by drinkypoo ( 153816 )

That is probably exactly why Trump wants it, for his crypto platform.

Trump has been communicating with everyone all along, including republicans in congress and other fascist world leaders, his hand has never come off the wheel on the reich hand side of the garbage truck.

Software should be copyrighted, not patented (Score:4)

by Tangential ( 266113 )

This is beyond stupid. Software is written and written things are copyrighted. Putting a patent on software would be like putting a patent on the concept of a novel that’s a mystery with a female detective. Then no one else could write that exact kind of book.

Re: (Score:2)

by radarskiy ( 2874255 )

The problem with saying that software should get copyright protection it that the more you think about software vs. hardware the harder it becomes to tell the difference.

I can start with a single of set primary inputs and implement: native code; behavioral model; gate-level model; transistor level model; FPGA configuration; integrated circuits. Any of those implementations can be inserted into a physical system into such a way that the user cannot tell which implementation was used. Try to justify why some

Re: (Score:2)

by codebase7 ( 9682010 )

> the more you think about software vs. hardware the harder it becomes to tell the difference

Software is just instructions executed by a hardware state machine. Those instructions may be interpreted a thousand different times by other instructions before executing any physical change on the state machine itself, but at the end of the day, it remains just that. Instructions.

That's the problem with software patents. The whole purpose of a patent is to ensure the public won't loose access to developed technology though a lack of documentation on it's construction. I.e. The instructions on how to ma

Re: (Score:2)

by PPH ( 736903 )

> the concept of a novel thatâ(TM)s a mystery with a female detective. Then no one else could write that exact kind of book.

The courts would have to establish a legal precedent as to the definition of "female".

everything in the summary is wrong (Score:4, Funny)

by dfghjk ( 711126 )

"...two bills that would resurrect some of the most egregious software patents..."

The legislative branch cannot "resurrect" any patents, they have no power to do so.

"...courts would be compelled to approve software patents on mundane activities ..."

Courts do NOT approve patents.

"This would unleash a torrent of vague and overbroad software patents, which would be wielded by patent trolls to extort small businesses and individuals."

Well, it wouldn't because courts don't approve patents.

The US patent office is part of the executive branch. In this pathetic summary, the only claims made are that the legislative branch "resurrects" patents and the judicial branch "approves" them, neither of which can possibly be true. Classic /.

Re: (Score:1)

by Jrabbit05 ( 943335 )

Yep. EFF praying on their supporters' lack of civics.

Re: (Score:2)

by PPH ( 736903 )

Well, the bill won't "resurrect" any patents. But going forward, it might enable a flood of new junk patents. Many of which the courts will have to litigate. Or legitimate businesses won't risk a court case and avoid areas where such blocking patents have been granted, driving business overseas.

Re: (Score:2)

by serviscope_minor ( 664417 )

You've managed to write a post which is technically correct but also completely wrong at the same time.

The legislative branch cannot "resurrect" any patents, they have no power to do so.

[Ignoring that the legislative branch can do anything that's not forbidden by the constitution]

A bunch of utterly garbage patents were applied for and granted. These have been rendered unenforceable by various court rulings, but most of the patents haven't actually been struck down and removed from the books.

They are zombie

Re: (Score:2)

by jonwil ( 467024 )

The courts ruled that various of these bogus software patents are invalid under current law. (courts rule on whether something is illegal under the law as it stands all the time) This new bill would change the law so that the bogus patents are valid (congress passing laws that overturn court rulings is not unusual). And then if the bill is passed, there will likely be court cases (where the people who's patents were declared invalid under the old laws go back to court with a new lawsuit under the new laws)

Thanks for the gift (Score:2)

by ukoda ( 537183 )

For pure software I wonder if this will simply lead to an up tick in off shore software companies. If you company has no physical presence in the USA and is selling online then I don't see how USA patent law could be applied.

If so this could simply be a gift to other countries to help build up their software industry.

Re: (Score:2)

by ClickOnThis ( 137803 )

> For pure software I wonder if this will simply lead to an up tick in off shore software companies. If you company has no physical presence in the USA and is selling online then I don't see how USA patent law could be applied.

Patent laws are territorial, and affect the commerce of the country in which the patent resides. So, an offshore company might ignore a US patent, but then it could not sell its products in the US.

There are international agreements and treaties that simplify obtaining a patent simultaneously in multiple countries. However, that's not what you're talking about.

Re: (Score:2)

by ukoda ( 537183 )

I realise there may be points I have overlooked but I don't see how the USA government can stop me selling to people in the USA unless they find a way to pressure my government or cut off payment methods. Both are blunt tools that are difficult to apply so would be largely ineffective against a large number of small players.

As for " international agreements and treaties that simplify obtaining a patent simultaneously in multiple countries " that is only going to cover patents that meet conditions of those

Re: (Score:2)

by ClickOnThis ( 137803 )

> I realise there may be points I have overlooked but I don't see how the USA government can stop me selling to people in the USA unless they find a way to pressure my government or cut off payment methods. Both are blunt tools that are difficult to apply so would be largely ineffective against a large number of small players.

Well, it turns out you have a point. Short story is [1]it's complicated, [foley.com] but importing into the USA a product that violates a US patent may be illegal, and likely is. Other situations aren't clear either, such as manufacturing a product or parts of it in the USA and exporting it, or other transactional complexities like having the goods pass through a foreign subsidiary first. The article covers many of them.

[1] https://www.foley.com/insights/publications/2016/04/can-foreign-sales-infringe-us-patents/

Did this pass the House? (Score:2)

by Cpt_Kirks ( 37296 )

If not, this is just Dems blowing smoke before they lose control, and this is a stupid thread.

Re: (Score:2)

by PPH ( 736903 )

> this is just Dems blowing smoke

Sponsored by both an R and a D. I suspect that you will have to follow the money down a deep rabbit hole to find the actual beneficiaries.

Okay, let's look at the actual bill(s) (Score:2)

by ClickOnThis ( 137803 )

I support the mission of the EFF. However, I'm confused as to what they object to in these bills. The link in TFS is not very helpful. It mentions two bills:

The [1]Patent Eligibility Restoration act, or PERA; [congress.gov] and

The [2]Promoting and Respecting Economically Vital American Innovation Leadership Act, or PREVAIL. [congress.gov]

I don't read the first one (PERA) as though it lets someone patent mobile food ordering -- at least not without something special added. See the following in Section 101, Part (b):

> “(1) IN GENERAL.—Subject to paragraph (2), a person may not obtain a patent for any of the following, if claimed as such:

> [...]

> “(B) (i) Subject to clause (ii), a process that is substantially economic, financial, business, social, cultural, or artistic, even though not less than 1 step in the process refers to a machine or manufacture.

> “(ii) The process described in clause (i) shall not be excluded from eligibility for a patent if the process cannot practically be performed without the use of a machine or manufacture.

You can order food without a

[1] https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/senate-bill/2140/text

[2] https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/senate-bill/2220/text

Re: Okay, let's look at the actual bill(s) (Score:2)

by zoobab ( 201383 )

PERA has a similar wording as the list of exceptions to patentability in the European Patent Convention art52.2, although the category of 'computer programs' is missing from the exceptions. And it's written by people who want to abolish the Alice SCOTUS jurisprudence.

Re: (Score:2)

by PPH ( 736903 )

> You can order food without a mobile app

But it's "using the Internet".

Never mind that "the Internet" as a general class of communications technology is already effectively in the public domain. Any subclass of these claims is trivially obvious and not deserving of patent protection.

Bad for Open Source (Score:2)

by hirschma ( 187820 )

Suing for patent violations requires visibility - in other words, if someone is violating my patent for widget mechanism, tear down the offending example and show the similarities.

Software is a different story, at least for closed-source. You can't (easily) go on a fishing expedition and get access to someone's source code just because you suspect something.

For Open Source Software, different story. The source is available, and it means that there is no expensive discovery process, or motioning back and for

Re: (Score:2)

by PPH ( 736903 )

> In short, this could kill off OSS pretty easily.

Or kill off closed source software. If you can't see the source, examine it for similarities and place it into the public record* as a part of the court case, then it's not provably similar. Case dismissed.

*I'm against private parties using our courts for their private gain (civil cases) but sealing evidence and concealing it from the public (for whom the courts serve). If you want to settle a dispute on your own terms, have a fist-fight in the parking lot.

Re: (Score:2)

by ClickOnThis ( 137803 )

Open-source software protects itself with copyrights , not patents.

If an open-source project violated someone else's claim protected by a patent or copyright, then the remedy is to remove the offending code and use something else.

If a patent-troll filed patents for processes on which an open-source project already depends, then the open-source project could object on the grounds of "prior art."

If a patent-troll succeeded at obtaining a patent that blocks an existing project (open-source or otherwise) then ye

Re: Bad for Open Source (Score:2)

by zoobab ( 201383 )

"could object on the grounds of "prior art.""

If you find "prior art".

But you suppose that software is worth patenting in the first place, which it should not be.

Software developers don't deserve protection of their speech under the 1st amendement?

Why should they be bothered to read and respect patents?

Re: (Score:2)

by ClickOnThis ( 137803 )

> But you suppose that software is worth patenting in the first place, which it should not be.

I agree: it should not. I was just engaging in a "what if" reflection.

Re: (Score:2)

by hirschma ( 187820 )

A patent-trolls like to go after the weakest "violator" to force those with deeper pockets to settle.

So, they'll go after the project first, since they can't afford to fight in most cases. Then they'll leverage that "victory" to attack anyone making money with that software.

Hope I'm wrong.

WTF are these assholes doing? (Score:2)

by gweihir ( 88907 )

And it is not even Trump in power yet. At least have the decency to wait for him before you make more crappy laws.

This will be a memorable month -- no matter how hard you try to forget it.