Fly Brain Breakthrough 'Huge Leap' To Unlock Human Mind (bbc.com)
- Reference: 0175187865
- News link: https://science.slashdot.org/story/24/10/03/2345201/fly-brain-breakthrough-huge-leap-to-unlock-human-mind
- Source link: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c0lw0nxw71po
> They can walk, hover and the males can even sing love songs to woo mates -- all this with a brain that's tinier than a pinhead. Now for the first time scientists researching the brain of a fly have [2]identified the position, shape and connections of every single one of its 130,000 cells and 50 million connections . It's the most detailed analysis of the brain of an adult animal ever produced. One leading brain specialist independent of the new research described the breakthrough as a "huge leap" in our understanding of our own brains. One of the research leaders said it would shed new light into âoethe mechanism of thought." [...]
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> The images the scientists have produced, which have been [3]published in the journal Nature , show a tangle of wiring that is as beautiful as it is complex. Its shape and structure holds the key to explaining how such a tiny organ can carry out so many powerful computational tasks. Developing a computer the size of a poppy seed capable of all these tasks is way beyond the ability of modern science. Dr Mala Murthy, another of the projectâ(TM)s co-leaders, from Princeton University, said the new wiring diagram, known scientifically as a connectome, would be âoetransformative for neuroscientists." [...] The researchers have been able to identify separate circuits for many individual functions and show how they are connected. The wires involved with movement for example are at the base of the brain, whereas those for processing vision are towards the side. There are many more neurons involved in the latter because seeing requires much more computational power. While scientists already knew about the separate circuits they did not know how they were connected together.
Anyone can view and download the fly connectome [4]here .
[1] https://slashdot.org/~fjo3
[2] https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c0lw0nxw71po
[3] https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-024-07686-5
[4] https://flywire.ai/
check your work (Score:2)
The obvious next step is to emulate this connectome in a virtual fly and see how it behaves. I'm willing to bet it won't even be able to move properly. The chemicals that energize the connections are many and varied, and this counts. They need to map beyond organelle right down to localized chemical gradients before it will approximate a living fly.
Re: (Score:2)
True enough, but it is still progress. If you want to simulate a brain, you need to go to a much simpler creature. Let's start with a planaria and work up from there.
Re:check your work (Score:4, Interesting)
> If you want to simulate a brain, you need to go to a much simpler creature. Let's start with a planaria and work up from there.
We've already started with nematodes, specifically C. elegans. [1] Caenorhabditis elegans [wikipedia.org]
The entire genome has been mapped, and some behaviors can be simulated. And it's all open source. [2]OpenWorm [wikipedia.org].
The cool thing about C. elegans is that all worms of the same gender (there are three genders) have the same number of neurons and identical connectomes. So, you can pick apart the brains of multiple worms and combine the results.
Disclaimer: My daughter is a biologist. Worm brains are a normal dinner table conversation topic for my family.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caenorhabditis_elegans
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenWorm
Re: (Score:1)
Ask your daughter how come worms only have 3 genders but humans have 76. Is that a result of humans being more complex creatures? What about all the other more complex mammals which only have 2 genders?
Re: check your work (Score:2)
We know where the neurons are, we still don't know how they work. We know how a lot of it works.
Re:check your work (Score:4, Interesting)
> The obvious next step is to emulate this connectome
NOPE.
Anyone with experience in emulation will tell you that trying to emulate the system at bus level logic requires exponentially more computational power than the real hardware itself has. Each one of these neurons is effectively it's own processor. (Able to process input signals and generate output.) Operating independently of all of the others. 130,000 of them. Even the best CPUs on the market don't have that kind of core count, let alone with their own independent cache. A supercomputer might get you there, but it will be very slow, and that's with high-level emulation where common functions and code are substituted with precompiled instructions in the host system's native instruction set. Which we cannot do here.
Nevermind the need to accurately simulate the timing between neuron firings and getting "data" (simulated chemical signals) to the right places. Which isn't uniform due to different timing requirements for construction of the various chemical compounds and the differing amounts and positions of available raw materials to construct them. (Don't forget variance between individual neurons!) A modern computer really doesn't have a step like this, as the needed electrical levels are maintained passively. (Yes, the system can turn things on and off. It's a broad over simplification for the sake of those reading this.)
TL;DR: We don't have anywhere near the artificial processing power to do this for a fly, let alone anything bigger.
One other thing, even when emulating bus logic you still need the raw data and firmware or that massive undertaking isn't going to be doing much once it's fired up. We only have the hardware connections. We still need to dump a copy of Fly BIOS and OS, and figure out where that data goes physically, before we can do anything useful with it.
I had to read the title twice (Score:3)
"Fly Brain Breakthrough"... For a second, I thought it was a RFK Jr. story and it wasn't just worms.
Progress (Score:2)
It took over a decade to get the first map of a brain, and that one only had 300 neurons. The brain mapping technology is improving dramatically. [1]https://singularityhub.com/201... [singularityhub.com]
[1] https://singularityhub.com/2019/07/18/the-first-complete-brain-wiring-diagram-of-any-species-is-here/
This is what I've been talking about (Score:2)
This sort of research represents the first steps in the direction that AI research needs to go if we're ever going to achieve real full-blown AI.
Re: (Score:1)
Let's assume true "strong AI" is possible. (I don't think so but let's grant it for the moment).
Why exactly would we want computers that have independent thoughts, personalities, and so on? In other words, be people.
I get the science-fiction coolness effect but in the real world, what for? What use would they have?
To say nothing of the ethical and moral implications of having self aware computers. Can they vote? Do they have other rights? If they want to quit and move to another job or just retire to
Won't get us anywhere (Score:2)
A fly's brain is far more advanced than a human's, how can it possibly have similarity to dumb-ass human brains?
Jeff Goldblum approves (Score:2)
It wasn't science fiction; that movie was predictive.
"Help me" (Score:2)
> It wasn't science fiction; that movie was predictive.
it was also a remake.