I feel like I should mention here that the Shinkansen trains run on dedicated tracks that are ONLY for the Shinkansen Trains. Almost no switching, no needing to worry about non-Shinkansen trains on the tracks, etc. Hence Automation for these is/should be significantly easier, than it is for most European train networks.

Still if Automation has to start somewhere, this is as good a spot as anywhere. And once it's proven on the Shinkansen, it can likely be expanded to other more complex systems. So go for it Japan!

Indeed, if only HS2 had been designed like that. ASLEF/RMT-free rail travel, one can only dream.

Nonsense.

If time on a train matters that much, then you are wasting too much time on a train.

The real q you should be asking is why am i wasting my life on a train.

So Shinkansen never cross regular train tracks with they are in a city and travelling too or from the fast tracks ?

That is my understanding. Where a non-shinkansen track would cross a shinkansen track, then one track goes either over or under the other. There are supposed to be absolutely no crossings.

Obviously I cant confirm that, (not working for Japanese Trains), but a very quick search on Google says that is the case.

Whilst this seems like such a brilliant solution, I feel like in 99% of cases in Europe, it's too late to redesign the network to accommodate such a system. The cost to retrofit such a design would be massive, so unfortunately we have to live with what we've got... :/

Hence Automation for these is/should be significantly easier, than it is for most European train networks.

Automation isn't the hard part of Unattended Operation, although integrating with legacy lines and non-automated rail certainly makes it harder. Most undergrad engineering students could throw together an autopilot that follows signals to start and stop.

Note that Unattended Operation is distinct from "Driverless", e.g. the Docklands Light Railway is "driverless" but still requires a crew member on board. (See [1]Grades of Automation. )

The hard part is managing the Train-Platform Interface, which - put simply - is ensuring noone falls into the gap, nor gets their clothing trapped in the door. This is the job that Tube drivers do on lines with "Automatic Train Operation". They're ensuring the train is safe to dispatch (if this isn't done correctly, a person can be dragged down the platform to their deaths. This has happened). On Unattended systems like the Copenhagen or Singapore Metros, this is done with straight (not curved) platforms which assure step-free and gap-free level boarding, and [2]Platform-Screen Doors (PSDs) (which also feature in newer Tube stations just because they improve platform safety). PSDs prevent anyone being outside the train without also being outside the screen.

You also have to consider emergencies and evacuation. On an Unattended system, the tunnels are wide enough to accommodate a walkway alongside the train. The energised third rail is under a protective cover on the opposite side of the tunnel/tracks. On legacy systems like the London Underground, the trains fill the narrow tunnels and evacuation is through the end of the train - walking between the rails and in proximity to the exposed third rail. You need a driver or crew member to check the system is dead and safe to get passengers out. Without reboring the tunnels wider, it's basically impossible to bring them up to spec retrospectively.

In terms of the Shinkansen, these are big, relatively modern platforms (nothing Victorian), and they're running on dedicated lines. The ATO is the easy part (the drivers are probably already just managing the doors). The platforms are also straight, which suits installation of PSDs, at which point you can do Unattended Operation.

Mixed traffic and curved platforms are why it is broadly impossible to make conventional rail networks Driverless or Unattended. Even the London Underground will not go fully Unattended because of curved platforms (dangerous gaps) and narrow tunnels. When you hear politicians talking about making the Tube "Driverless" in response to strikes, they're actually talking about GoA3, which still requires a crew member (who can go on strike!), but they know the media will lap it up because "Driverless" doesn't mean what the public thinks it means.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_train_operation#Grades_of_automation

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platform_screen_doors

It's just a really really really fast Docklands Light Railway.

In Paris there are metro lines without a driver now. It has been like that for a few years already. A train, technically, is just a metro with longer times between stops. In the metro in Paris, they are upgrading stations to build barriers between the tram and the people, so as to guarantee that people won't be able to suicide themselves by jumping in front of an incoming tram. Obviously, an actual train will not have that kind of protection, much less a high-speed one, but it would seem that there are a lot less people who jump in front of trains rather than trams. No idea why. In any case, I think automating trains is a good idea, because I know that train drivers on France's TGV are basically button-pushers. They have to press a button every minute to prove that they are awake.

There are apparently more interesting jobs out there . . .

The Victoria Line has been automated since it opened in 1968 (and the technology had been tested on the District Line since 1963) and now many other lines don't technically require a driver for all or part of their operation, so the reasons we still don't have driverless metros in the UK [1]are worth considering .

Basically, we have the technology but lack the infrastructure you need to deploy it successfully. Britain in a nutshell.

[1] https://rail.nridigital.com/future_rail_sep23/driverless_trains_the_tube

The Victoria Line has been automated since it opened in 1968 (and the technology had been tested on the District Line since 1963) and now many other lines don't technically require a driver for all or part of their operation, so the reasons we still don't have driverless metros in the UK are worth considering.

There is [1]a significant difference between Automatic Operation and safe Unattended Operation .

When that article says:

This is one of the key issues holding back the automation of the Tube, according to the TfL document. In order to have driverless trains, the operator would have to adjust the platforms and the tracks to make them the same level.

TfL would also have to introduce platform-edge doors in order to make on and offboarding driverless trains easier and safer for passengers. These prerequisite barriers would ensure that fewer people would jump or fall onto the rack.

What they're saying is "rebuild from scratch". Nothing in London pre-1960s can be retrofitted for full Unattended Operation (GoA4) unless you commit to boring the tunnels wider for self-evacuation walkways that don't require a crew member to check the third rail is actually dead so you can walk along the tracks. You'd also need to straighten out the curved platforms, which means boring entirely new tunnels and realigning routes (which will impinge on other tunnels and infrastructure). "Adjust the platforms" and "install platform-edge doors" sounds like a matter of money and political will. And I suppose it is. But these are not upgrades. These are rebuilds!

Platform Screen Doors prevent people falling onto tracks, but to be useful for Unattended Operation you need straight platforms, so that there is minimal gap between the train and screen doors (and no risk of being trapped in the interstitial space). Unfortunately, most of the older lines in London have at least one curved platform on their length which would leave a dangerously large gap (the gap between platform and train is already large enough that "Mind the Gap" is a cultural touchpoint).

It is not a simple job to upgrade London's infrastructure". You'd be quite literally reboring and rebuilding entire lines to straighten them out. It would honestly be cheaper to start from scratch.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_train_operation#Grades_of_automation

yes. hmm. You wouldn't be FrenCH by any chance, would you? Or work for their tourist board?

The Shinkansen is the Lord's method of land-based travel. Leaving work and paying the extra £10 for Her to take me to my loved one in 15-20 mins over 300kph making a 1 hour journey in said time.

Not matter how your day went, Shinkansen-sama is 5-star. Smoking my menthols in the smoking carriages as the fields of rice and a world of Canary Wharf-like Tokyo downtown blurred by. Watch that Brad Pitt film. The Concorde of land.

The French one is nice but it has one flaw: customer service is infamously bad. So much so there is a condition that affect Orientals caused by Fr3nch waiters believing they conquered the globe, not us - despite all the clear evidence. Linga Franca anyone, for starters. Invented chu chu's too. Of course we encourage others ot exceed our achievements. That is the key th English success which is seen in sports, too.

Trains here are the same as France. Japanese ones and now Chinese are another world. See James May - he loves them

Really the lord wastes his time travelling ?

I would have thought the smartest thing was not needing to travel in the first place.

Only idiots waste their lives commuting... just look at yourself you didnt ask the q why am i travelling soo much that it matters.

There are many reasons other than commuting for travel. Including just travelling for the sheer unalloyed pleasure of it, meandering across the face of the globe on a whim, no schedule, just The Journey.

GJC

I'm glad the Shinkansen have such a good safety record. I'd hate to see it get broken because of a software bug.

Especially in a country where failures that bad often result in, er... "train delays".

happened to a friend once and made local news as was 18 minutes late. He got given a 'train late, we are so sorry and will torture our souls to seek your forgiveness (in Japaense)' ticket for work. He still has it 20 years later.

They even [1]apologise when they are too early , but then "It is rare for trains in Japan, which has one of the world's most reliable railways, to depart at a different time to the one scheduled."

[1] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-42009839

Because you don't need to go the full 200mph

Meanwhile in Blighty HS2 will hit 225mph.

One day.

In the meantime Birmingham /Manchester (81 miles 65ch according to railmiles.me) and 99mins travel time gives an average speed of 49.58mph, despite all trains being capable of 125mph and the pendolinos being able to do 140mph. But that's the norm for train services outside London. At full speed that 125mph is 39mins, not 99 mins. A pendo (needs in-cab signalling, like the US has used since the 1920's)

Of course they do have to share the loopy, hoopy built-in-the-19th-century route with freight trains whose top speed (75mphs maximum) hasn't changed since the late 60's and was set for trains with rigid (no springs) suspensions and braking only on the locomotive and the brake car at the back. All British freights since the mid 80's have had sprung suspensions and all wagon braking (although a lot of the US system still does it old school. That lead to the Palestine chems train derailment). Tests on some have shown 90mph is a safe speed on these, but that's still not been applied across the network.

BTW 80+ parameters are needed to set a speed limit on the UK rail network and there is anecdotal evidence that there is no routine review of speeds across the 10 000 miles of network to systematically identify spots areas where an improvement scheme would raise the average speed for all commuters and freight services on that line.

High Speed Rail? I think a lot of folk would settle for full speed rail.

but England is much much smaller than Japan. It might not look it, but Japan is massive. We dont have the same need. Normal train from Tokyo to Fukuoka takes a long time with quite a few changes. Non-Shinkansen for long distance isn't even considered there. Not the same here with Sotland being the longestg and that isnt even a real sleeper.

Electric motorways that charge might be better. Electric is great for just the noise reduction alone. Here in Kensington, almost all are electric and the difference is wild. A lone ECU is a roaring monster in our square now.

500 in China and new Shinkansen is something wild like 700kph

Would you believe I was all set to indignantly sputter about your ignorance and then went and looked it up and to my surprise: Japan has nearly twice the land area than the island of Great Britain (*)!

Have an upvote as apology! That said, those insane speeds are tests with maglev trains from what I've read.

(*) UK readers please forgive me: I'm shirley not alone in getting confused about UK vs GB - and just what the septic isle is called, when you don't include Northern Ireland, various islands, etc?

but England is much much smaller than Japan. It might not look it, but Japan is massive. We dont have the same need.

The most heavily trafficked routes are those like Tokyo-Osaka, which are very much on a UK-scale (London-Newcastle, Edinburgh).

Not the same here with Sotland being the longestg and that isnt even a real sleeper.

We're attached to this landmass called Europe. Under a non-insane political leadership, it would be possible to board a train in Brum or Manchester and got off in Paris. This would be quicker (door-to-door) than enduring the misery of airports and sitting for an hour on the RER to get in from CDG at the other end. This is even without considering the environmental cost of short-haul aviation.

High Speed Rail also opens the possibility for HIgh Speed Sleepers . London to Istanbul is about 1800 route miles. A sleeper averaging 160-180mph over a 200-220mph capable track could make the distance in about 10-11 hours - board at 7pm and arrive at 7am, rested and ready for breakfast. This is almost certainly a more comfortable and practical way to travel than spending hours in an airport, and then sitting on a plane. You save a night in a hotel, and you don’t lose a “travel day” doing it!

Electric motorways that charge might be better. Electric is great for just the noise reduction alone. Here in Kensington, almost all are electric and the difference is wild.

For inter-city travel? Where do you park your car when you get there? Westminster? Princes Street Gardens? Cars don't work for ultra-urban transit and they don't scale. If you replaced the Underground with cars, you'd have to pave over most the places people were trying to get to! Cars are great. They're liberating. But let's be real - the future of transport is improved public transit with cars reserved for family outings, reps with arbitrary travel needs, etc. Nobody should be needing to commute by car. Kids should not be driven to school. These are failures of transport planning.

And notwithstanding full-self-driving cars (further away than fully-unattended trains), 16 year olds can't legally drive. Nor can those with disqualifying disabilities. Or those without a licence. Are they to be excluded from civic life because they don't have access to a private car? (The de facto answer is "yes - screw the disabled").

And some of us just like to read a book or get some work done if we're travelling for 5 hours - not having to deal with people who haven't picked up a copy of the Highway Code for 30 years and have no idea how to behave on "smart" motorways, or even the basics like zipper merging.

That was the main reason for building HS2, to have a dedicated track where trains could run at full speed. With no need to share tracks with expresses they could then also run more stopping trains as well.

In the meantime Birmingham /Manchester (81 miles 65ch according to railmiles.me) and 99mins travel time gives an average speed of 49.58mph,despite all trains being capable of 125mph and the pendolinos being able to do 140mph. But that's the norm for train services outside London. At full speed that 125mph is 39mins, not 99 mins.

But that would presume that you make no stops. Which is why the WCML's average speed is lower than it's top speed. It turns out that people in places like Coventry, Crewe, Stafford and Reading also like to get the train sometimes.

This of course is the entire f-ing point of HS2 - to segregate long-distance express services from stopping traffic and enable those non-stop services which get to top speed and sit there until the next city, whilst giving back the legacy network to local and regional travel so that stations like Polesworth, Norton Bridge and Barlaston can be reopened, and lots of little stations that are notionally open can get more than 1 train every 90 minutes (i.e. be actually useful!).

and all wagon braking (although a lot of the US system still does it old school. That lead to the Palestine chems train derailment).

The derailment was caused by a 'hot box" -- an overheated wheel bearing. Like all normal trains in the USA, the train had all-wagon-breaking. Reports indicated that the train had a "civil war era braking system" --- in the USA, that means Westinghouse air brakes on every car: the civil war ended in 1865 and the Westinghouse automatic air-brake system was patented 4 years later in 1869.

The Westinghouse automatic air-brake system is pneumatically controlled. The Westinghouse system means that brakes are applied very quickly when required (not a feature of the older pneumatic-control designs), and are applied automatically when there is a brake fault (also not a feature of the older pneumatic-control systems).

Modern rail air-brake systems are electronically controlled, not pneumatically controlled. Electronically Controlled wagon brakes are only being introduced as wagons are replaced. Some countries never even legislated the Westinghouse control system, and still have archaic pre-civil-war error positive-control not-fail-safe air-brakes, or, like the UK until the 1960s, are still using "loosely coupled" unbraked wagons. That's not the USA, and it's not what lead to the Palestine derailment.

It's about time that lazy, overpaid UK train drivers were replaced with automation. If cars can be self-driving (to a certain degree) I see no reason why trains going along fixed rails cannot be more easily made self-driving.

Sydney has driverless trains, about 100kph under the harbour the network is extensive, you can look out the front window.

If cars can be self-driving (to a certain degree) I see no reason why trains going along fixed rails cannot be more easily made self-driving.

They can. The driver serves the same role as the driver in a partly self-driving car - ensuring that the vehicle is safe to depart, nobody is stood on the platform with their clothes trapped in the door, and that nobody is trying to retrieve fallen items from beneath the vehicle ("Mind the Gap").

The "Platform-Train Interface" is the hardest problem in automation and is borderline impossible to retrofit on many legacy networks without basically rebuilding the network. In fact, no legacy system has ever been upgraded to [1]Unattended Operation (GoA4) . The Copenhagen and Singapore Metros, and the driverless lines in Paris were all built that way from the start, with necessary accomodations for platform and tunnel infrastructure. No curved platforms, over-bored tunnels with self-evacuation walkways, etc. Good luck squeezing an evacuation walkway into the tunnels on the Northern Line!

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_train_operation#Grades_of_automation

I highly recommend watching Japan Railway Journals on YouTube (courtesy of NKH), it's enlightening to see how the railways work in Japan.

It's also quite sad. You do see a lot of train routes falling in to the hands of volunteers to keep them alive because they just don't have the footfall of people going to and from work. Its a mix of an aging population and the young people not wanting to live in small towns where there doesn't seem to be the work for them. So you end up with special trains running different themes etc. It's just the Severn Valley Railway but much wider across the country.

Then you have some fabulous trains in Japan. There is one where the interior is nothing like you'd see anywhere else. Hardly any walls just glass all around you, with the shape of a tree over it and the interior belonging to something out of a 7 star luxury Dubai hotel, giving you near panoramic views of the Japanese countryside.