when it ruled that the Commission's primary line of reasoning was based on erroneous assessments.

Whos' erring the erred?

Don't kid yourself, the courts are only fighting over which from of corporate welfare is allowed: the "Double Irish" or the 'We'll pretend that we collect taxes on the rich but write enough loopholes so they don't really have to pay a pence anyway'.

Worldwide corporate interests will simply make sure that the next round of legislation writes the tax break Irish-style loopholes into law. And in the next election people will happily vote for the party that does it, stating that the tax loopholes breaks are "good for the economy". Rinse, repeat.

"'We'll pretend that we collect taxes on the rich but write enough loopholes so they don't really have to pay a pence anyway'."

Ireland has a tax that they do collect, but it's much lower than other locales so it's a good move for multi-nationals to "earn" their money in Ireland where they aren't subject to as much tax. These arrangements are also mainly a bit of accounting magic so Ireland charging less tax doesn't pay out as much since some of those corporations don't generate much in the way of expenses for the government. There isn't enough savings for the little guys to play this game due to the cost in blood sucking lawyers and trickster accountants. A company needs to be worldwide and into the multiple billions of revenue to make it work. Is the EU jealous that Ireland has found a way to game the system on a sovereign level? With the EU, is Ireland even sovereign anymore?

> With the EU, is Ireland even sovereign anymore?

BZZT. I was expecting this argument to pop up sooner rather than later. So firstly, let's remember that Ireland is a voluntary member of the EU, and chose to balance aspects of its sovereignty in return for other benefits, just as all other members did. They're free to leave and be as "sovereign" (i.e. isolationist) as they like, but that would cut both ways with no-one being obliged to trade or cooperate with *them* either.

But to get to my second, more important point (and I'll rehash one of my earlier comments since we've been here before)...

Ireland's taxation situation with respect to Apple *is* the legitimate business of other countries, because the entire setup depends in the first place on those other countries cooperating and permitting Apple to funnel profits from sales in *their* countries as being "made"- and hence taxed- in Ireland.

What do you suppose would happen if all those other- equally sovereign- countries were suddenly able to, and did, decide not to cooperate with the legislation that permitted that obvious fiction?

That if all those other countries decided that- while Ireland was free to tax any genuine sales within its own borders however the hell it wanted- any sales in *their* own countries were to be taxed *there* at *their* rates* and funnelling them through tax havens would be outlawed?

The whole thing would fall over quicker than a house of cards, because it was never about Ireland alone.

So, as I said back then, Ireland isn't the victim here, Ireland is the beneficiary.

> Is the EU jealous that Ireland has found a way to game the system on a sovereign level?

Evidently it hasn't, as it's been deemed to have been breaking the rules by doing so.

Apple share price is currently down of -1.65% - Not really a black Tuesday for Apple. Maybe the markets already knew Apple cheated, that this tax break wasn't deserved and should be paid back.

+300% in five years. Is there any other investment that is as profitable?

Apple has so much money it has been struggling to invest all of it. They currently have $61.8 billion in cash in their bank account.

Maybe they should invest a bit in privacy friendly AI then instead of contracting the worst privacy violators? After all, their track record so far of selling hardware and not customer data has been pretty good, and it's frankly part of why many choose their upper-end prices.

N O T E N O U G H

M O A R R R ! ! !

Then they should return to share holders!

I betting most of that is being hold offshore while they wait for a tax break before they take it back to the States, so they can avoid having to pay a lot of Tax on it.

"Apple has so much money it has been struggling to invest all of it."

Maybe they should go back into computers. Tim Cook has turned Apple into the iPhone/iWatch company and less of a presence in computers. They do lead ways of innovating obsolescence by gluing things together in a way that is nigh on impossible to service and designing products that have to be replaced as they can't be upgraded once they leave the factory in China.

> Tim Cook has turned Apple into the iPhone/iWatch company and less of a presence in computers.

Not to excuse Cook, but Apple was already heading in that direction under Jobs following the success of the iPhone, and I suspect they would have ended up there anyway. Even if- I suspect- they wouldn't have rested us much on those profitable laurels as they have under Book.

> They do lead ways of innovating obsolescence by gluing things together in a way that is nigh on impossible to service

Jobs was *always* a driver of Apple towards closed, non-upgradeable consumer appliances from the early on. (For example, the very first versions of the Mac were pretty much a closed systems with no easy way- if at all- of upgrading the original, insufficient 128K RAM. Even the later "Macintosh 128K" could only be upgraded to 512K via unofficial means).

The current hard-to-service situation with iPhones et al is just the logical conclusion of that approach.

The problem with Cook is that he seems to lack the driving vision that seemed to drive Jobs, and they haven't come out with any fundamentally new, widely-successful product lines since Jobs' death, except possibly the Watch. (And that never really set the world on fire).

The biggest innovation from Apple in recent years has been the M-series processors, but while those have made some impressive performance gains, they haven't driven fundamentally new or different product lines.

Bitcoin: +450% in the last 5 years (you can literally just google "bitcoin price" and see the chart for yourself).

I wouldn't advocate "investing" in that, either.

"Bitcoin: +450% in the last 5 years "

Fine if you were in early, but since then, you have to be very lucky on your timing to make (or not lose) money. Of course, the whole idea was to have a currency that wasn't controlled by any government so you could purchase all of your cocaine and heavy artillery anonymously. It wasn't an 'investment' but that's how people see it now.

The government of Ireland gave them a tax rate, they accepted it, now the courts are complaining about it, how is that Apple cheating? They paid their fair share, which was exactly the amount the Irish government told them.

The Irish government was not entitled to give them that tax rate. What you refer to as "their fair share" was just determined to not be a fair share.

Ignorance of the law is no defense, not for you, not for the Irish Government (which is bound by law to it's obligations under the treaties with Europe it has), not for Apple. Apple's lawyers could have looked at the law as well and said "we don't think we should take this deal because we don't think you can do that" but Apple chose to behave like an meth-head in a meth free-for-all and do the shortsighted thing instead.

And now they owe back taxes...

Don't be an apologist for these entities, they won't back you up either. Them (or anyone for that matter) not paying their taxes or dues deprives _you_ of things that you deserve.

"Them (or anyone for that matter) not paying their taxes or dues deprives _you_ of things that you deserve."

No, I earn what I have, I don't rely on money taken from others for my things. I do not "deserve" anything I haven't earned. The world would be better off learning that reality.

I strongly recommend to dig a little deeper: taxes pay for common goods, such as sewers, roads, social services, fire brigades, police, trash pick-up, etc. These things and services take money to operate!

Sure, you work hard and earn money that way, that's excellent and no-one is taking nor are they trying to take this accomplishment away from you. But there are other things you use which you only paid for through your taxes. Depriving those entities of those taxes means that those services won't get provided to you... thus entities not paying their taxes deprive you of things you have 'earned' purely by virtue of being a human that lives in a particular locality.

Unless of course you live completely off-grid, don't use public roads, don't connect to sewer, public water, etc...

There are a couple of places in the world that don't levy taxes. I don't hear great things about their infrastructure or quality of life for their people.

I will gladly point you towards [1]https://www.newyorker.com/humor/daily-shouts/l-p-d-libertarian-police-department for your further consideration, while warning you that it is intended as parody and farce, rather than a desired state of things.

[1] https://www.newyorker.com/humor/daily-shouts/l-p-d-libertarian-police-department

> I strongly recommend to dig a little deeper: taxes pay for common goods, such as sewers, roads, social services, fire brigades, police, trash pick-up, etc. These things and services take money to operate!

Don't waste your breath- that account has consisted almost entirely of repetition of the usual right-wing "culture war" talking points and positions since its inception a couple of months back.

Roads, emergency services, military protection?

You really want to forgo those? Guess what pays for them?

I take it you don't use public roads, water supply or the public Internet, were privately educated and employ your own militia to enforce the law?

Taxes pay for almost everything that you take for granted.

> The world would be better off learning that reality.

The only "reality"- basic or otherwise- you've been interested in since joining a couple of months ago is the one you set up to suit your own ideological beliefs. Your account has been dominated by the usual stereotype right-wing talking points from the start.

I remember replying to your first comment (*), "welcoming" another account whose first post jumped straight in with another "culture war" totem, calling you out on that (**) and predicting we'd see more along those lines in future.

Bingo.

(*) Unless you'd made comments before *that* which had also been deleted for the same reason.

(**) Crap that- along with the replies- was later removed by the mods (and which I won't repost here for that reason), most likely because it was on a sensitive subject.

Foreign taxes paid are a credit against US taxes.

So they will take a tax hit this quarter to reflect that payment, but will end up getting it all back by paying $14 billion less in taxes to the IRS.

More fool the IRS then!

Wait, is this the same IRS that double taxes regular people living and working elsewhere in the world if they happen to be Americans?

Americans abroad are liable for US tax. But can usually offset the taxes they pay in country against that. So long as you’re living somewhere that have a tax agreement with the US. If not, then it’s double tax a go-go.

That would be this European Court of Justice then?

https://www.lrb.co.uk/the-paper/v43/n01/perry-anderson/ever-closer-union

"Today the court remains, of all Union institutions, the most withdrawn from the public. Discreetly situated in Luxembourg, not exactly a European crossroads, and composed of judges appointed – one per country – by member states, its proceedings are hidden from public scrutiny; its decisions permit no admission of dissent; its archives grant minimal access to researchers. In modus operandi, the ECJ is the antithesis of the US Supreme Court, whose emoluments it comfortably tops"

Apple are doomed to loose this one.

>>>> Apple are doomed to loose this one.

Apple should learn to tighten better then. That way they won't lose those loose court cases.

"Apple should learn to tighten better then. That way they won't lose those loose court cases."

It wasn't Apple that lost. Apple adhered to the regulations that Ireland imposed, but it was Ireland that was disallowed by the EU court to extend the arrangement to Apple in the first place. To me, that's a bit more ominous. You can be fined for following the law if some body decides that the law was not to be allowed, retroactively.

https://www.rte.ie/news/2024/0902/1467936-leinster-house-bike-shed/

"Answers needed from OPW over €335k bike shelter"

Does it go to Ireland (who didn't seem to want Apple to pay it) or the EU ?

My guess: the lawyers

Ireland, apparently.

https://www.rte.ie/news/analysis-and-comment/2024/0910/1469335-apple-analysis/

This suggests that the options are: 1) Pay off a bit of Ireland's EUR223B National Debt, 2) add it to some infrastructure funds which were set up to deal with windfall taxes from multinationals, or 3) immediately spend it on infrastructure. Nice little headache for the politicians. And with a General Election coming up too (before March 2025).

Option 4: Give everyone in Ireland €2,500 and send them down the pub.

Send them down the pub

What would they do the following day then?

I think it is unlikely that they'll manage to spend it all in one night.

After spending €2,500 each at the pub? Not much, I'd imagine.

5) Lower Ireland's corporate taxt rate to attract more multinationals.

"5) Lower Ireland's corporate taxt rate to attract more multinationals."

That's been the sticking point, Ireland having one of the lowest tax rates of a developed nation. I'm sure there are others even lower but with a greater chance that the banks will be nationalized when the new dictator needs to replace his (it's always a he) fleet of Bentley's, Gulfstreams and luxury yachts.

A win-win for Ireland.

they offered Apple favourable terms to set up business in Ireland, from which they received a portion in form of what tax Apple did pay and income tax from Apple's employees.

and now they get the rest of the tax they would have had if they hadn't made a deal (provided that Apple still set up business in Ireland)

"Does it go to Ireland (who didn't seem to want Apple to pay it) or the EU ?"

A numbered account in a Caribbean tax haven?

Another American company getting screwed by the EU, just shut off all their damned services and leave them in the dark. Apple, Google, all the tech companies, shut the assholes down.

And forgo all the European business? Why would they do that?

Mr "Basic" here doesn't realise that the EU is bigger than the US, in terms of population. (...and rights, and living standards, etc. etc.)

To be fair, if they stopped selling Apple products in the EU, I think the overwhelming response there would be, "meh", and the overwhelming response from traders, to the plummeting stock price on the NASDAQ would be "AAAAAAARGH!"

Apple are unlikely to relocate their EU headquarters and all their staff to another EU country offering more favourable tax terms, unless it's really in their benefit to do so, and the costs of doing so would be huge, especially since I'm sure Irish employment law is much fairer to employees than US "at will" employment law, so there would be massive severance and relocation pay costs.

Europe is responsible for occupying countries for centuries. If you look at history, they started the slavery system and initiated two world wars. Now, they are trying to start a third one with Russia. The European mentality is like Hitler’s. Maybe it’s time for the USA to avoid the EU and join with Russia and China.

Wow.

Consider it as going on strike. Apple, Google, Microsoft, Amazon. Shut down the services in Europe, and when everyone's phones and computers simply stop working, maybe the politicians will stop trying to screw the American companies. It's just a strike for fair laws. Until then, no phones, no email services, nothing.

"Consider it as going on strike. Apple, Google, Microsoft, Amazon. Shut down the services in Europe, and when everyone's phones and computers simply stop working, maybe the politicians will stop trying to screw the American companies."

It's more that these companies will move their major corporate offices someplace else taking a load of high paying jobs with them and leaving behind an expensive high rise that landlords will find impossible to lease to new tenants until it's ordered demolished being an eyesore and covered in dozens of layers of spray paint.

American companies are screwing you every single day and would screw you even harder if they could and are relentlessly trying to do so.

But keep licking that boot.

" Until then, no phones, no email services, nothing. "

Listen for the screaming of the stock exchange as cutting off a bloc with a larger population than the US would likely slaughter share prices in an irrational act of self harm.

I, however, would welcome it. Sure, there will be short term pain and plenty of chaos (who can read a map these days?), but maybe just maybe European providers will get up off their fat arses and start to provide services so that we are no longer beholden to the privacy-pillaging offerings from overseas.