Our car is 8 years old so we're considering changing it. EV doesn't even enter the equation. We live in rural Scotland, with no charging infrastructure nearby, our house roof is unsuitable for panels due to dormers, and we tow both trailer (2200KG) and caravan (1800KG).

There's nothing on the market, EV wise, that can tow the above AND that we can afford.

Meanwhile, we can choose from hundreds of 2nd-hand diesels.

Don't get me wrong, getting away from oil is the right thing to do, but EV just isn't the solution, at least not yet.

Sometimes I think we made a mistake by choosing batteries over fuel cells, but I’m no expert.

Fuel cells are picky and, to the best of my knowledge, don't run on existing pump fuels. So they require an entirely new fuel manufacturing, distribution and storage system just to be viable. Meanwhile we already have fairly widespread electricity distribution.

Fuel cells are idiotic.

Hydrogen is a dead end. It's either dirty and energy intensive to produce, or clean but INSANELY energy intensive to produce. We don't have enough clean electricity to even consider it as a possibility, and won't for the foreseeable future.

Batteries are the only practical choice.

If you have enough surplus renewable the inefficiency of hydrogen production is outweighed by the benefits.

Compared to millions of lithium batteries it is a model of green and low environmental impact.

True, but how does the safety picture look? Are we likely to have more car fires in high speed crashes where hydrogen leaks everywhere and ignites with a spark? As it's a gas I'd imagine it would be worse than petrol to control in that kind of situation. Plus what effect could it have on people trapped in a vehicle if it fills the cabin?

Hydrogen fuel cells make really no sense for passenger cars for a number of reasons:

- Expensive infrastructure. Way more expensive than an EV charger or petrol filling station as you need a 700 bar compressor, cryo storage and pumping kit, and precise leak detection all the way from the tank to the user. In California, where a few hydrogen stations exist, the cost per kg of hydrogen is around 8x the cost of gasoline, and there's no tax on it...

- Too expensive to manufacture. At £60k for a Toyota Mirai, it's estimated that Toyota are spending at least that much on manufacturing each fuel cell. That makes them wildly impractical for average cars. All hydrogen cars are effectively electric vehicles, with an onboard hydrogen generator which is used to charge up a small battery (typically around the size of a hybrid battery).

- Efficiency is ludicruously bad. An EV from well-to-wheel is about 65% efficient. A hydrogen car is around 30%.

- There's no sustainable plan to produce the amount of hydrogen required from electrolysis. Freshwater is necessary, otherwise you have to desalinate first, which further impacts efficiency. Most hydrogen is currently produced from natural gas.

- Vehicle packaging. ICE and BEV cars both offer good packaging for the size of the vehicle. In a BEV, batteries can be placed on the floorplan. In an ICE, you just need to find somewhere for 50L of fuel. A hydrogen car needs somewhere to pack the multiple hydrogen tanks. If you look at the legroom and cargo volume in something like a Mirai sedan, it carries only four people and has cargo volume of 272L, but a Model 3 which is 50cm shorter carries 5 people and has cargo volume of 594L.

- Whilst hydrogen ICE is possible, it presents a number of considerable limitations, notably the high compression ratios required which produce large levels of NOx much like diesel engines. And a hydrogen ICE still needs cryo-stored fuel so the tank limitations apply.

Hydrogen does make sense in a few areas. Long-distance trucking, construction machinery, possibly aviation. But it will be competing with synthetic and biofuels in that category which are already being adopted, whilst hydrogen seems to be left behind, possibly because of the added costs compared to hydrocarbon fuels which can be stored at room temperature and pressure, don't leak through at the atomic scale, and can be combusted in regular ICEs and turbines.

It's not a solution for all, in the same way hatchbacks aren't suitable for your towing requirement, but that doesn't mean they're not a solution for others.

For the vast majority of the population, the average journey is something like 7 miles, and they don't tow things, so EV is a solution, just not a solution that covers everything.

Certainly not, as anyone able to take a rational position on this will agree. The trouble is, they're being progressively forced on us (via ZEV mandates) as the only solution, way before the requisite generating, grid, and charging infrastructure is in place.

I much prefer the carrot approach (incentivise buying an EV) to the stick (penalise ICE vehicle drivers or phase out combustion vehicles)

It would still require a major effort to build up a charging infrastructure adequate to support ICE replacement in the time-scale governments want that to be done. That's what needs to be incentivised.

The carrot approach will take too long. We're well past time for the stick (mandated end to ICE production and no registration of new ICE vehicles).

The only question now is whether we're already too late. I mean, we definitely are for some coastal cities.

Ditching ICE isn't enough, of course. We've also got to commit to ending ALL fossil fuel use within a fairly short timeframe - or just give up, and billions will die from the coming famine.

We're already close to the 1.5C global temp threshold, we've hit the first year of the planet that much warmer, and we're well on the way to 2C. If the methane under the ice caps gets released, humanity's future isn't looking fun.

And the sad part is that ICE vehicles have fuck all impact on that.

[1]The 1.5°C target is dead, but climate action needn't be

[1] https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg26335052-800-the-1-5c-target-is-dead-but-climate-action-neednt-be/

...my traction engine can run on either sticks or carrots (dried helps).

p.s. that is a bank-holiday special - being behind a traction engine pulling a touring caravan.

Quite right. These Internal Combustion Engine fan-boys dismissing electric vehicles when clearly they are the misguided ones. (For not sticking with readily available energy sources like coal/wood/fuel-oil to run a steam-engine/ECE.)

It's not the length of average journeys that count but that of the longest journey to be made. If you can't drive your car for week-end or holiday trips then that car is not suited for you.

You don’t have to make that longest journey without stopping though, unless (like one of the posters above) there’s simply no charging infrastructure en-route.

"unless... there’s simply no adequate charging infrastructure en-route."

It's adequacy that matters. It's no good saying that you can recharge in the time it takes to stop for coffee unless there's a charger free when you stop. In practice that would mean that most if not all parking spaces at a motorway service station or the like would have to have chargers capable of charging at that rate and the supply to the service station would have to be capable of supplying that much power.

Not forgetting that public chargers are criminally overpriced. The cost per mile for an EV works out significantly higher than petrol or diesel unless you can charge at home.

This is true if you use the PAYG price at most chargers.

But, if you can stop at Tesla chargers (50% are open to non-Tesla now), or Ionity chargers and have their membership for ~£7/month, the cost is about 2/3rds that of petrol.

I actively route away from the expensive chargers - and from my experience I'm not the only one.

Public chargers are priced roughly the same actually, although it's still overpriced.

"Average" petrol car, current french petrol prices: assuming 36mpg = 12.7km/l, at about €1.78/l means 1000km is about €139

My Kia EV6 gets 3.8kW/km, and last year Ionity network was €0.49/kWh, so the same range would be €128.

But assuming you can charge at either end of the trip off a domestic supply, you'll normally start full and end empty, so it does work out quite a bit cheaper. And as Tom pointed out, there are ways to make this considerably cheaper if you do lots of milage, like Tesla or Ionity membership, or just aiming for cheaper chargers.

And if they're in working condition. If you look at a map of the US chargers which are broken it's a significant minority, and I imagine the situation is similar in the UK. Plus you get ones which are derated due to a technical fault with the charger, or they've got the wrong socket on etc etc.

Technology Connections & Aging Wheels did a roadtrip video on YouTube talking about this, well worth a watch. There may be more info in the Technology Connections videos on electric vehicles, I can't remember which video has the info above in it and I'm at work so can't look into it.

"the average journey is something like 7 miles, and they don't tow things, so EV is a solution, just not a solution that covers everything"

Most people need their car to cover everything. It the occasional longer journey isn't supported by the charging infrastructure then EV isn't a solution. The present refuelling infrastructure for ICE driven vehicles took decades to build up. It would take a major drive to replicate that in the time-frame that governments want to replace the ICE fleet.

I live in rural Ireland with no charging infrastructure nearby - except the electricity supply to the premises.

We have a cheap EV *and* one of those secondhand diesels: a 4WD Duster. The Duster does about 5% of our household miles, because the EV saves so much money

Since I commute we needed two cars anyway, but diesel compared to cheap-rate electricity is a no-brainer. It really is

The only reason we would not have an EV is if we couldn't charge overnight at home

That right there is the reason for so many people to stick with ICE.

But the EV only saves money because it is effectively subsidised to a high level.

That is not sustainable.

Cheap off-peak electricity isn't subsidised: it's cheap because there's usually an excess of power at certain points in the day, especially at night, and it incentivises consumers to shift their operation to charge then rather than at peak times.

I intend for my next car to be a BEV but I'm happy to continue getting use out of my 12 year old dinosaur burner while waiting for a step change in energy density, battery stability and sustained performance. I don't know how long I'll be waiting but I hope it's not too long...

I've been saying that for a decade, and BEVs appear barely any nearer to affordability and practicality than they were in 2014. But affordability and practicality matter not - the government is moving pell mell on it's net zero economic self-crucifixion, and the penalties on car makers for not selling a big enough proportion of EVs are so draconian that car makers will themselves withdraw ICE from the market over the next few years.

So in a few years if you can't afford to drive an EV, stay at home and huddle round your wildly expensive heat pump, and reflect on how you're saving the planet.

"BEVs appear barely any nearer to affordability and practicality than they were in 2014"

Affordability for second-hand BEVs is substantially better than the situation in 2014 when you could choose between a Nissan Leaf and a very small number of others, all at a high premium second-hand.

Likewise range has increased markedly from the very optimistic "about 100 miles if you're lucky, only when the battery is new" to a reliable 200 miles+ that will last for many, many years of battery life. I know this from personal experience.

However, we live in a free society and I support your God-given right not to like stuff. As we used to say at the end of the 20th century, YMMV.

"BEVs appear barely any nearer to affordability and practicality than they were in 2014"

I disagree with this statement. If you go back to 2014, the only EV you could get with 200 mile range was a £90k+ Tesla Model S. They were truly rich person's toys... and not particularly well built. The cheap EV was something like a Nissan Leaf: 80 mile range, 40kW charging, £35k after grant.

This is now available on a £25k Fiat 500e / Peugeot e-208 / Vauxhall corsa-e, or an MG 4, and these cars charge as fast as that Tesla did (100kW+) and there's no plug in grant any more to lower the price, that's the price they're selling for new on forecourts right now.

On the used market, a friend of mine recently purchased a second hand e-208 for £12k, there are many others on the market for that price. Used EV prices have softened significantly. They are now essentially at price parity with comparable ICE vehicles.

Of course, if your idea of a cheap car is £5k and a good MOT history, they're still out of reach, but I do expect that segment of the market will fill out in the next five years. All cars depreciate.

I know what you mean. My current car is a 2008 Honda Accord EX CDTi with 120k on the clock. I've owned for over 5yrs now and put 20k on the clock. It gets me low 40's around town and low 50's on a long run with a loaded car.

I paid £1800 for it, thanks to covid, it's worth about £2000-2400 on the used market now. I practice what I call 'bangernomics' I buy a used car that's about 9-11yrs old with roughly 100k on the clock for cheap money and run it until it's no loner economical to keep on the road... Usually 3-5yrs on avg. I've done for a long time now, at times having a 2nd sporty car at the same time (I used to run a car owners club)

I know that my car is coming to the end of it's life... but it passes ever MOT without issue. It failed the last one on headlight adjustment after I stripped and repolished the lights and never connected the electric motor properly on one side when refitting them. Emissions are good, there's no blue smoke to indicate turbo wear, no sooty black smoke.

I have solar and battery storage on the house, and they provide up to 80% of my energy for the year (we avg 5300kwh/yr and generated 4100kwh last yr). This year I even expanded battery storage so that we can go for an entire month with only a trickle of energy import... May & June was 42kwh of import over 61 days and we earned enough from export to cover the entire June bill inc standing charges.

But I still wouldn't get an EV... It's not because I'm cheap, it's because it's not suitable for my driving. Assuming the figures are correct and that it takes a family sized EV upto 50k miles just to offset it's production cost, and I drive 4-5k miles a year. It would take me 10yrs just to be neutral on emissions. Up to that point, I've just shifted them somewhere else. After 10yrs... those batteries are kinda done and down to 60-70% capacity... At least the batteries in my home are larger than rated... the 8.2kwh is actually 10.2kwh so that it doesn't degrade over the 12yr warranty and I've got 2 batteries bought a year apart.

I am looking at hybrids though... I might even go for a smaller car... So long as I can get 60-70mpg avg and have heated seats (good for my bad back in winter)... a car is a tool for getting from A-B... outside of that... it just has to be built in Japan because their build quality is superior to anything else I've ever owned in 32yrs of driving.

I've not even mentioned the fact that somewhere between 30-40% of homes are unsuitable for home charging... the figure varies greatly, the infrastructure is poor (there's 6 chargers within a 15m radius of where I live).

I really wish fuel cells had been given the attention and investment... Now, I think FC vehicles should be used for longer range transport like trucks and coaches, public transport too.

Until we get away from the idea that everyone needs to own a car... we'll never do anything to reduce pollution from them. Cheap, subsidised public transport run as a not for profit industry, build cycle routes and eliminate cars from city centres.

I live in a rural setting on the edge of a small town... 65k people live in an area about 260sq/miles... getting a bus to the town 6 miles away, takes almost 2hrs and 1 change... and it goes on a 23m trip. I bought an ebike a couple of years ago and today did an 18 mile ride for pleasure in the sunshine. Stopped at the shops and picked up enough groceries to see us through the weekend. No need to use the car for the 4m roundtrip to buy food for the next 10-12days as we usually do. It's one of the ways I've reduced my car use down to 4-5k a year.

EV's are not the answer... they're the capitalist answer to generate more profit and speed up the destruction of out planet.

> Nicholas Farhi, a partner at OC&C Strategy Consultants, put the decline down to worries about range

The right-wing media FUD is unfortunately very effective

Imagine how many perpetuum mobile devices we would have today if only people trying to build them ignored the right wing $cientists telling it will not work.

And flying cars. I blame Trump and Putin that we don't have those

None, irrespective of whether advice is ignored or not.

Do you really think the people buying vehicles aren't capable of knowing what their longest journeys are nor are they capable of looking around them to see what the existing charging infrastructure is and combining those too pieces of information? Range would not be a problem if available charging capacity matched petrol and diesel refuelling capacity.

If I could be sure of rolling into a motorway service station and finding an unoccupied, working fast charger I'd be confident to buy an EV. I can't therefore I'm not.

My barrier is that no one is making a sensible small, non-luxury BEV (that can be purchased in North America).

There are small electrics around (IIRC you can get an all-electric Vauxhall Corsa) but the problem is that EV drivetrains are hard to fit in small cars while providing sensible range due to the size and weight of the batteries.

You CAN'T get a Vauxhall Corsa in North America.

Not that much of anyone would, small slow cars aren't practical here.

The problem isn't that small EVs aren't available here. The problem is that cheap EVs aren't available here.

And the biggest problem is that other than California there's no deadline for the end of registration of new ICE cars.

Australia is awash with cheap and cheerful Chinese EVs. Indeed, the Chinese have stolen a march on almost everyone when it comes to EVs, especially Japan which is falling a long way behind.

Even the Teslas we can buy here are all manufactured in China.

Is it a trade sanctions thing in the US?

Is it a trade sanctions thing in the US?

It is.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/article/2024/may/15/joe-biden-us-tariffs-chinese-evs-electric-vehicles-details

What really grates is he smug anti-EV youtubers were right.

My plan was to get an EV when I could charge from home. While that happened this year, I had already witnessed friends describing it as their biggest financial mistake (apart from getting married).One friend waited six months for a "part" before being told they could not source the part and they would buy the car back of her for .... 20% of the purchase price (after two years). This is NOT "eco"!

There is to much kid-ology going on and we all need to admit we were duped (like with 3d TVs)

3D TVs aren't 'duping'. The technology works, it just has its implementation specific limitations. Some of the auto 3D generation from LG TVs is very impressive.

The issues are more that people don't like wearing extra equipment to watch TV, it's not always a good solution if multiple people are watching, and it can affect brightness and contrast - but it does work.

3D stereoscopy simply goes through phases of popularity - 3D screenings at cinema are now minimal. People won't pay much extra for a 3D showing, and aren't fussed in seeing films in stereoscopy after the novelty wears off, even when it's well implemented.

Every twenty-thirty years, regular as clockwork. Since not so long after 1840...

(You wouldn't believe the way the Victorians did 3-d movies! Bowden cables to shutters on eye-pieces.)

Is this a problem with EV’s as a concept or shitty manufacturers?

"Is this a problem with EV’s as a concept or shitty manufacturers?"

It's a problem that the technology and infrastructure (at a system level) is immature, but government have made it clear to manufacturers that a winner has been chosen (by the government, not the market) and the manufacturers transition to that or find another business to be in. As with most instances of government picking winners, it'll work out very costly, even though the technology can ultimately be made to work.

I would say both. EV tech, regardless of if the specific concept is good or not, needs significant infrastructure and support to be usable, and both aspects are still pretty weak right now compared to the alternatives. The EV market is still in its infancy; there is a lack of aftermarket/secondhand cars and parts, few third-party repair shops, iffy software with considerable privacy concerns, and chargers sparsely dotted around unless you're in a bigger city.

The lack of a mature market also makes one very dependent on the manufacturer, and with these EV companies sprouting up and failing over and over again, I imagine it's difficult to get consumer trust—not just with specific brands and companies, but with the industry and EVs as a whole. For example, manufacturer repair centers are basically the only places that can realistically service your car, and wait times can be incredibly high due to the lack of technicians and centers. Tesla owners can wait months on parts and service, and that's a non-starter for many people. Hell, only recently has a unified charging standard come about; previously, you would have to look for specific chargers that supported your specific brand of car, which is absurd. Naturally Tesla dominated the market, and they didn't share their charger design with anyone until recently, when they contributed to the new charger standard. But even then, not all chargers and cars have been updated—some can't be, and require the development and vendor/consumer purchase of adapter kits.

The best hope for the solidification of the EV market is to further standardize, and get more EVs into consumer hands to drive the need for more infrastructure... But manufacturers are still fighting over innovation, and you can't convince consumers to buy EVs without confidence in the infrastructure, so...

Sadly this. ^^^

Overall, everyone who could afford an EV has bought for now. A plateau was inevitable. And the cheap Chinese EV's have been effectively locked out of the U.S. market.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/article/2024/may/15/joe-biden-us-tariffs-chinese-evs-electric-vehicles-details