Core Python developer suspended for three months
- Reference: 1723203851
- News link: https://www.theregister.co.uk/2024/08/09/core_python_developer_suspended_coc/
- Source link:
Citing the recommendation of the Code of Conduct Working Group, Python developer Thomas Wouters revealed on behalf of the Steering Council that the unidentified developer was deemed to have repeatedly violated the Python Software Foundation (PSF) [1]Code of Conduct .
The suspended developer is Tim Peters, who told The Register it was fine to name him but declined to comment – beyond observing that one of his objections to the governance process is the secrecy involved.
[2]
The [3]cited objections include the following:
Making a significant number of posts (47 out of 177) to a discussion of a change to bylaws, "which created an atmosphere of fear, uncertainty, and doubt, which encouraged increasingly emotional responses from other community members."
"Defending 'reverse racism' and 'reverse sexism', concepts not backed by empirical evidence, which could be seen as deliberate intimidation or creating an exclusionary environment."
"Using potentially offensive language or slurs, in one case even calling an SNL [Saturday Night Live] skit from the 1970s using the same slur ' [4]genuinely funny ', which shows a lack of empathy towards other community members."
"Making light of sensitive topics like workplace sexual harassment, which could be interpreted as harassment or creating an unwelcoming environment."
"Casually mentioning scenarios involving sexual abuse, which may be inappropriate or triggering for some audiences."
"Discussing bans or removals of community members, which may be seen as publishing private information without permission."
"Dismissing unacceptable behavior of others as a 'neurodivergent' trait, which is problematic because it creates a stereotype that neurodivergent people are hard to interact with and need special treatment.
"Excessive discussion of controversial topics or past conflicts, which could be seen as sustained disruption of community discussions."
"Use of potentially offensive terms, even when self-censored or alluded to indirectly."
"Making assumptions or speculations about other community members’ motivations and/or mental health."
[5]Numerous [6]discussions [7]played [8]a role in this decision.
In one titled "Inclusive communications expectations in Python spaces," Peters pushed back on the notion that "Python old-timers are troglodyte reprobates" and expressed concern about Python's Code of Conduct enforcement process. "I can tell you for a fact that more than just a few PSF members are terrified by the possibility that the CoC WG [Code of Conduct Workgroup] will ruin their careers," he [9]wrote .
I don’t feel comfortable with that kind of power being wielded in that much secrecy
Steering Council member Gregory P Smith answered that proposition by [10]writing : “I recognize that there are some who think that way.”
"It makes me sad,” he added. “But that attitude as phrased is entirely backwards. If a conduct-related enforcement action happens and that 'ruins their career', the responsibility for that lies entirely on them. It was their behavior that got them there in the first place."
[11]
[12]
Echoing Peters' concern about secrecy, Chris Angeligo [13]countered : "I wish I could 100 percent trust that this was the case. But there is a complete lack of transparency. How can we know that the responsibility truly does lie with that person? At present, what we have is 'trust me, there’s problems, and we need to deal with them, but we can’t say anything.' I don’t feel comfortable with that kind of power being wielded in that much secrecy."
"Codes of conduct can be weaponized just like anything else. Secrecy creates dangerous weapons."
[14]Under-fire Elon Musk urged to get a grip on X and reality – or resign
[15]Faulty instructions in Alibaba's T-Head C910 RISC-V CPUs blow away all security
[16]Anaconda puts the squeeze on data scientists deemed to be terms-of-service violators
[17]DARPA suggests turning old C code automatically into Rust – using AI, of course
A 2021 [18]academic study from researchers at University of Texas at Austin and Carnegie Mellon University - "Code of Conduct Conversations in Open Source Software Projects on GitHub” - found that codes of conduct are useful to help govern open source software projects, but are not without challenges.
"[A] controversial moderation act is capable of inciting mass community feedback and backlash," the paper states. "Project maintainers balance the tension between disciplining potentially offensive forms of speech and encouraging broad and inclusive participation."
[19]
Online toxicity has taken a toll on numerous software projects, as for example [20]occurred in the Perl and [21]Rust communities in 2021.
Judge, jury, and executioners
With regard to Peters' 47 posts, the Python Software Foundation Board [22]proposed three changes to its bylaws. One of these proposals would "allow for removal of [Python] Fellows by a Board vote in response to Code of Conduct violations, removing the need for a vote of the membership."
The issue is that Python Fellows are awarded membership for life and the only mechanism to remove them – if they've been found to have violated the CoC – is seeking a vote from the full Python Community. This is undesirable, because it would "subject members of the community – including people directly impacted by that violator's behavior – to undue distress."
Peters said he supported the proposal in principle but [23]argued for a more stringent test than a simple majority vote.
He was not the only one who [24]expressed reservations about the proposal – which was ultimately [25]adopted .
[26]
The Python Software Foundation and the Steering Council did not immediately respond to requests for comment. ®
Get our [27]Tech Resources
[1] https://policies.python.org/python.org/code-of-conduct/
[2] https://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/jump?co=1&iu=/6978/reg_software/devops&sz=300x50%7C300x100%7C300x250%7C300x251%7C300x252%7C300x600%7C300x601&tile=2&c=2ZrY9ICU6MzFOUgoNLKRj9gAAAMU&t=ct%3Dns%26unitnum%3D2%26raptor%3Dcondor%26pos%3Dtop%26test%3D0
[3] https://discuss.python.org/t/three-month-suspension-for-a-core-developer/60250
[4] https://discuss.python.org/t/for-your-consideration-proposed-bylaws-changes-to-improve-our-membership-experience/55696/150
[5] https://discuss.python.org/t/inclusive-communications-expectations-in-python-spaces/57950
[6] https://discuss.python.org/t/how-can-we-better-support-neurodivergent-newcomers-to-the-community/58724
[7] https://discuss.python.org/t/python-s-supportive-and-welcoming-environment-is-tightly-coupled-to-its-progress/59232/2
[8] https://discuss.python.org/t/python-s-supportive-and-welcoming-environment-is-tightly-coupled-to-its-progress/59232/2
[9] https://discuss.python.org/t/inclusive-communications-expectations-in-python-spaces/57950/6
[10] https://discuss.python.org/t/inclusive-communications-expectations-in-python-spaces/57950/11
[11] https://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/jump?co=1&iu=/6978/reg_software/devops&sz=300x50%7C300x100%7C300x250%7C300x251%7C300x252%7C300x600%7C300x601&tile=4&c=44ZrY9ICU6MzFOUgoNLKRj9gAAAMU&t=ct%3Dns%26unitnum%3D4%26raptor%3Dfalcon%26pos%3Dmid%26test%3D0
[12] https://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/jump?co=1&iu=/6978/reg_software/devops&sz=300x50%7C300x100%7C300x250%7C300x251%7C300x252%7C300x600%7C300x601&tile=3&c=33ZrY9ICU6MzFOUgoNLKRj9gAAAMU&t=ct%3Dns%26unitnum%3D3%26raptor%3Deagle%26pos%3Dmid%26test%3D0
[13] https://discuss.python.org/t/inclusive-communications-expectations-in-python-spaces/57950/12
[14] https://www.theregister.com/2024/08/07/elon_musk_chamber_progress/
[15] https://www.theregister.com/2024/08/07/riscv_business_thead_c910_vulnerable/
[16] https://www.theregister.com/2024/08/08/anaconda_puts_the_squeeze_on/
[17] https://www.theregister.com/2024/08/03/darpa_c_to_rust/
[18] https://par.nsf.gov/servlets/purl/10347026
[19] https://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/jump?co=1&iu=/6978/reg_software/devops&sz=300x50%7C300x100%7C300x250%7C300x251%7C300x252%7C300x600%7C300x601&tile=4&c=44ZrY9ICU6MzFOUgoNLKRj9gAAAMU&t=ct%3Dns%26unitnum%3D4%26raptor%3Dfalcon%26pos%3Dmid%26test%3D0
[20] https://www.theregister.com/2021/08/13/perl_resignations/
[21] https://www.theregister.com/2021/11/23/rust_moderation_team_quits/
[22] https://discuss.python.org/t/for-your-consideration-proposed-bylaws-changes-to-improve-our-membership-experience/55696
[23] https://discuss.python.org/t/for-your-consideration-proposed-bylaws-changes-to-improve-our-membership-experience/55696/20
[24] https://discuss.python.org/t/for-your-consideration-proposed-bylaws-changes-to-improve-our-membership-experience/55696/25
[25] https://discuss.python.org/t/psf-board-election-proposed-bylaws-changes-results-announcement/58465
[26] https://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/jump?co=1&iu=/6978/reg_software/devops&sz=300x50%7C300x100%7C300x250%7C300x251%7C300x252%7C300x600%7C300x601&tile=3&c=33ZrY9ICU6MzFOUgoNLKRj9gAAAMU&t=ct%3Dns%26unitnum%3D3%26raptor%3Deagle%26pos%3Dmid%26test%3D0
[27] https://whitepapers.theregister.com/
Re: Sad day
Agreed , Inclusion has become the new silver bullet which allows a company to constantly define new rules , which are almost impossible to adhere to and which ensure that the only result is complete division.
It is basically a reciprocating means of ensuring societal collapse. Big groups get split into smaller groups, new rules are created and further division ensues, and infinitum.
Eventually the snake has no other option than to eat it's own head.
Re: Sad day
Ah for the good old days of racism, misogyny and bullying in the workplace. Golden times.
Re: Sad day
I was trying to approach this with an open mind. The question of whether CoC was being implemented by either fascists or whiny little babies who have no sense of humor, balanced against trollish offensive posting of public comments, is likely to have tipped over in favor of the "accused" on this one.
Sad because CoC's should not even have to exist, nor whiny baby activists who seem to want to write them way too much...
Re: Sad day
Bollocks.
Defending offensive behavior as "neurodivergent traits" is offensive, demeaning, and damaging to people who are neurodivergent, especially when the people being excused / excusing themselves very rarely have any diagnosis to support their claims. It's become the "go to" for assholes and dinosaurs to defend bad behavior.
Re: Sad day
You have just exemplified my case
"It was their behavior that got them there in the first place"
As a species, we are going to have to accept that what we say is our responsability.
The Internet has been, and still largely is, a haven for idiots mouthing off ignorance and hatred. And wokism is not helping.
That has to stop.
I say that regardless of whatever happened to that core developer. I don't know him, I didn't follow him, I'm unaware of the specifics.
But, globally, people need to shut the fuck up.
Re: "It was their behavior that got them there in the first place"
Ironically, shutting Tim and others up is exactly what the CoC achieved.
And it's worth looking Tim up: clever, erudite and friendly, and who even has a sorting algorithm named after him. He's one of the people who made Python what it is. Nowadays there's an increasingly committee feel about decisions with it apparently being as important to tick boxes as to solve real world problems.
Re: "It was their behavior that got them there in the first place"
Broadly agreed, just...
> And wokism is not helping.
Perhaps it might, depending on which definition is being used...
Woke (adj.)
1. African American slang (1980s; aspirational, motivational): Alert to social injustice
2. Illiberal slang (2000s; derogatory): Perceives social injustice where there is none
3. Reactionary slang (2010s; catch-all, insulting): Not reactionary; disagrees with my way of thinking
It'd be helpful if people could be clear on which version they are deploying.
Re: "It was their behavior that got them there in the first place"
"wokism" = anything that happens that that the right doesn't like.
Well, it's one more way to self-destruct. From what the steering group has said (per the piece) that's the likely end result.
I can’t comment too much on this specific incident due to some of the relevant posts being hidden, but a lot of people don’t seem to realise that outstanding technical contributions to a project don’t mean you’re immune to the consequences of being a piece of shit.
Actually, we're generally very aware of them. But it's not pertinent here. I read Tim's e-mails, which were well reasoned and written and not offensive. However, the thread did contain posts from the usual group of people more than happy to take offence on behalf of other people. Both Eric Raymond and Richard Stallman are arseholes but that doesn't mean everything they did is shit and not worth considering.
I've been at Python conferences where keynote speakers will talk about the need to get people around the world to attend their conference but who, strangely, don't offer support for poor people in their own countries. And I've been censured at a conference for saying "Java is shit". If these fuckers ever get hold of El Reg, 99% of the comments will have to go.
Don't like that? Fine by me: feel free not to use my software.
"but a lot of people don’t seem to realise that outstanding technical contributions to a project don’t mean you’re immune to the consequences of being a piece of shit."
Tell us what you think about the likes of Steve Jobs, or Jeff Bezos.
Bad journalism
"Using potentially offensive language or slurs, in one case even calling an SNL [Saturday Night Live] skit from the 1970s using the same slur 'genuinely funny', which shows a lack of empathy towards other community members."
He _did not_. He said - and you link to his exact words, so I don't know how you could have fucked this up:
It was about kicking a package off of PyPI, because its docs repeatedly used a word that Dan Akroyd used to apply to Jane Curtin (brilliant comic actors from America’s “Saturday Night Live” TV show, but back in the days when it was genuinely funny :wink:).
He calls SNL in the 70s genuinely funny. He said nothing about the actual skit - just noting that it existed.
PS: The word in question rhymes with cut and slot. What a load of nonsense over nothing. Tim didn't create the package, he just didn't see the need to censor it.
Re: Bad journalism
If Tim doesn't understand the need to remove a word that (a) adds nothing of value and (b) is offensive to plenty of people to the point that he is *actively defending it*, then it is increasingly clear that he is indeed the problem here.
It also makes me increasingly distrustful of the defenses of his other posts.
Re: Bad journalism
Belgium!
Re: Bad journalism
"If Tim doesn't understand the need to remove a word that (a) adds nothing of value and (b) is offensive to plenty of people to the point that he is *actively defending it*, then it is increasingly clear that he is indeed the problem here."
Anyone that is so thin skinned should remain out of contact with people because eventually they will find offense in something said by someone, it's unavoidable due to us being humans and not machines.. And if they can't manage to find offense they will eventually create a new offense in order to keep the victim machine turning, as per the current tradition.
It's an endless game of being a victim, and everyone loses. There is nothing positive or fruitful with this stupid game.
Re: Bad journalism
"cut" sounds just like a very rude word in Dutch. Maybe it's time to ban "cut & paste" :-D
Donald Knuth noted that "names are hard".
Re: Bad journalism
He _did not_. He said - and you link to his exact words, so I don't know how you could have fucked this up:
There’s also a link to the [1]cited reasons these were a direct quote of.
It was the python people who misunderstood.
[1] https://discuss.python.org/t/three-month-suspension-for-a-core-developer/60250
Re: Bad journalism
Aw, shoot. Beat me to it!
El Reg's only addition to that particular point is the link to the 'genuinely funny' quote (hopefully the same one being referred to by the allegation).
I'm hopeful that it was merely an instance of incompetence rather than malice, but don't suspect that it would have changed anything if the allegation had been removed entirely. The remainder of the list would still have more elements in it than one.
"Dismissing unacceptable behavior of others as a 'neurodivergent' trait, which is problematic because it creates a stereotype that neurodivergent people are hard to interact with and need special treatment.
I am classed as 'neurodivergent', having been diagnosed with Asperger's, and I do need special treatment. I need people to be direct, blunt and to disregard tactfulness. I don't get subtlety, and I can also be very blunt and tactless.
People can also be critical of me, as I know my behaviour sometimes appears inappropriate and I appreciate having my occasional blunders pointed out so much can try to avoid them. Criticism that might evoke anger or resentment in most people are handled very differently by someone like me - it triggers an analytical process to try and understand the reasons for the criticism.
Yes, it would be great to be treated no differently than anyone else, but that would make my life much harder. Surely it's much more sensible to acknowledge differences in perception and reasoning, and not end up with the awkwardness that would otherwise result?
The usual woke reply to that would be that you're not truly 'neurodivergent', because your personal situation does not fit into their narrative.
I have never been diagnosed so I don't know if I fall into any of the categories/spectrum etc but if I did I would probably be pretty close to your situation.. I prefer the honest/direct approach, it's something that I can understand , not the subtle one which is impossible to interpret.
Self-Awareness
As a techie friend once put it, "Do I fuckin' look like a people-person?!"
> The usual woke reply to that would be that you're not truly 'neurodivergent', because your personal situation does not fit into their narrative.
Are you confused, or am I? I would have thought that "woke" people would defend the neurodivergent as a potentially oppressed and bullied minority (but see [1]my previous post ).
But hey, what do I know? Personally, I'm subtle as fuck.
[1] https://forums.theregister.com/forum/all/2024/08/09/core_python_developer_suspended_coc/#c_4910344
"The issue is that Python Fellows are awarded membership for life and the only mechanism to remove them – if they've been found to have violated the CoC – is seeking a vote from the full Python Community. This is undesirable, because it would "subject members of the community – including people directly impacted by that violator's behavior – to undue distress."
What a creative and novel way of saying we would get absolutely battered in a vote.
So Tim got suspended for three months due to misbehaviour.
And is the "problem" gone now? Will Time "behave" in the future? Only time will tell.
People communicate. People get emotional. People say things.
One should realise that situations like this one only get better if parties keep communicating - not ignore or lock out for a period of time.
It is people we are talking about, not computers. People are way more complex than computers.
Take that CoC and shove it, you ignorant slut?
The article nicely illustrates " the tension between merit-based OSS culture and the growing emphasis and call for inclusivity " imo (from the linked academic study's Conclusion section). We know that folks who achieve great things in IT can also exhibit "borked" social interactivity (Richard Stallman[*], Hans Reiser, ...), as can happen in other fields too (eg. Oscar Pistorius). For [1]Tim Peters (Python Distinguished Service Award 2017), arguing to keep the slut package[**] in PyPl (linked under 'genuinely funny'), based on SNL's [2]Jane, You Ignorant Slut Weekend Update sketch, was surely not socially smart (a funny sketch, but not a good name for a package to be broadly distributed, to any and all Python users, of all age groups, ...).
Here's to hoping we can have more project folks who are simultaneously technically meritorious and socially bearable, to help advance OSS, without the need for ever stiffer CoCs (my 2-penses)!
[*] (mentioned also by earlier kommentards)
[**] (removal [3]Approved 6-4-1 by IRC vote, 31 January, 2014 )
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Peters_(software_engineer)
[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c91XUyg9iWM
[3] https://www.python.org/psf/records/board/resolutions/
Sad day
This goes to show that Tim and others were right in their fears as to where this change in the bylaws would lead. I'm on the mailing list and read Tim's e-mails which were typically well-phrased and to the point. But, for years now, the PSF has been pushing "inclusion" above everything else: the very worst of well-intentioned West Coast liberalism. As always happens, this will probably lead to some kind of split and the detriment of the whole ecosystem.