Maybe this is because those who buy second hand are wary of the technology?

Now we come to the main reason, they are simply far too expensive and most are far too large.

Most of the buyers until now have been corporate leases for no other reason than tax incentives. It is nothing to be with an EV being "Green", it is ways of saving corporate money and increasing people's perks.

A survey recently (European & US I believe, I cannot find the link) showed that those who where proponents of EVs were generally much better off financially, lived in property that meant charging was not an issue and had access to other vehicles that were ICE.

"Now we come to the main reason, they are simply far too expensive and most are far too large."

Applies to all cars...

> Applies to all cars...

No it doesn't. E.g. my Kia Rio is reasonably sized, not too heavy, decent mpg, I bought it 6 years ago second-hand for the price of an [1]electric bicycle , and it has served me very well.

[1] https://www.e-bikeshop.co.uk/products/electric-bike-haibike-hybe-cf-11-2024?variant=43588618125550

And the iMiev is still 5 door, but is lighter...

Of course there are lighter and heavier cars of all sorts, but to pretend that EVs are the cause of vehicular obesity is to ignore the last 30 years of "development"

I don't think anyone has suggested that EVs are the cause, all cars are getting bigger as they're inflated with extra safety features, it's just that batteries have a far lower energy to size/weight ratio than liquid fuels. For small sizes of car the batteries take up proportionately more space, and add more weight, so there's a real problem of diminishing returns. For something like a Fiat 500 the EV version carries a 40% weight penalty over the petrol version (1400kg versus 980kg), and has 1/3 the range. Look at a family saloon-sized car & the difference is less marked, as is the price differential. A small EV makes little sense economically.

Agree. I've never bought a brand new car in my life. A second hand ICE vehicle will have some wear and tear, but if the previous owner maintained it - should give me a lifetime of use.

Maybe I don't know enough about second hand EV batteries, but I don't feel that would be the same with an EV.

Perhaps I just need to look at it differently - instead of the cost of engine servicing over a longer term, put that cost towards new batteries?

Actually, your only valid point is the EV battery issue.

In all other respects, EV cars are much simplar and more reliable. ICE cars are way more complicated mechanically, and more prone to more numerous drivertrain issues. I'd always hated buying second hand ICE cars (someone elses problems they are offloading onto the unsuspecting) Nah.

Contrasting reports on EV reliability fixate on Software issues, Climate Control (geesh) and "build quality" - none say the actual driving the car part is less reliable as clearly that's not true its the opposite.

The problem is it's not the "driving part" that goes wrong, is it? Every single car I've owned has developed some sort of electrical fault at some point. The difference is that older cars you just go "Well, I guess the steering wheel adjustment is staying where it is now then." or "Do I really care that the climate control in the rear seats isn't working independently?" hell, if the car is old enough it's "I guess ABS was an optional extra on this model anyway so it not working on this one is no worse than me buying one without it..."

In modern cars (and, yes, this does apply to modern petrol cars as much as EV's) they have an annoying tendency to go "Satnav's not working. I shall sit here and refuse to co-operate until you go through a 15 step dance with the infotainment system to put it into Maintenance mode so you can drive it at a maximum of 30mph to the nearest manufacturer approved service centre"

It's no good the batteries and motors working perfectly if the bloody computer system that runs it all has sat down and had a tantrum because the sensor that tells it the boot lid isn't properly closed has decided to pack up.

In addition to this with older cars you could usually find a wiring diagram and debug a fault or get the ECU to blink lights and go hunting from there. Now everything has multiple control units, CAN everywhere, more error codes than you can count, each control unit has to be programmed... the list goes on.

Pine hollow auto diagnostics on youtube is a great channel if you like serious electrical debugging.

And superfastmatt who did a video on the evolution of the Tesla door handle from OMFG insanely complex to just normal stupidly complex.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bea4FS-zDzc

ICE cars are way more complicated mechanically, and more prone to more numerous drivertrain issues.

Over the past few years I have run into the ground and scrapped a Nissan Micra K11 (160,000 miles at the end), a VW Golf (285,000) and a Citroën Berlingo (150,000). In each case the terminal disease was rust - the engines and drivetrains were absolutely fine. Electric vehicles are certainly simpler, but the car industry has had a hundred years to make IC powertrains pretty near bombproof.

It does seem from some of the early Tesla failures and even more recent EV failures that lessons learned about keeping various fluids within or outside of certain components has been lost. I've seen a few EV batteries incl a merc and an MG one which were pretty soggy on the inside. I think it is a tesla pack where there is a steel cover that rots and lets the water in. And issues of cooling water mixing with oil in motors.

For at a good 30 years now ICE cars have not felt the need to mark their territory every time you park up.

"IC powertrains pretty near bombproof."

When regularly serviced by a competent mechanic, and fed a regular diet of oils and other fluids...

Which is much harder to do outside of a garage nowadays - a friend's WAV had to be taken away for two weeks because she dared to but 5l of AdBlue into it, rather than the 10l which is supposed to be added each time... Note that the AdBlue tank is one thing that was modified as part of the WAV conversion, so...

"A second hand ICE vehicle will have some wear and tear, but if the previous owner maintained it - should give me a lifetime of use."

Unpredictable. Years ago I bought a 2nd hand Sierra with 60k on the clock - suspiciously exact but that might have just been good fleet management - which was up to about 180k when it finally had to go. This was at the time when I was freelancing and tearing up and down the country a good deal*.

In 2013 and already long retired I bought a new Skoda Superb thinking that that, carefully maintained, should probably last out my driving days. The famous VAG build quality & all that. It was scrupulously maintained despite not doing that much mileage, what with Covid & all that. Last autumn it started using oil and it was discovered that the sump was rusting through & leaking - something I'd never experienced before in nearly 60 years of driving but which the garage tells me is frequent these days**. It hen started using oil again, no good reason, it was just starting to burn it. I decided it was time for it to go. So from brand new and well maintained, to less miles on the clock than that old ex-fleet Sierra and already showing signs of engine wear. Maybe my new Subaru hybrid*** will see out my driving days instead - it should certainly get up the hill in snow rather better.

* There was an episode where it refused to engage 1st at M1 junction 37 - seized 1st motion shaft. On thinking back the last geat change had been M40 Junc 9

** Quite possibly old engines used to lose a bit of oil through breathers etc so the outside of the typical sump was too oily to rot.

*** I did look at a Tucson PEV but it was even bigger than the Skoda which I considered as more or less the limit for narrow lanes. In consequence I miss the boot size of that the Skoda and Tucson had. The Subby only just fits my friend's wheelchair.

"a lifetime of use"?

Are you telling us you've got a terminal illness?

Most ICE vehicles struggle to get past 20yrs. I recently retired a 20yr old Audi diesel (only 200k miles though). Engine was still fine, but corrosion was starting to get a grip. Plus the electrics were increasingly haunted.

Even if you manage to protect the metalwork of the car, the various plastics become brittle over that time period and start to crack and fail

I considered an electric, and the battery was the least of my worries to be honest. The chemistry and thermal management has progressed a lot, and loss of capacity seems to be less than forecast in most cases. However you can still get issues (eg kia Niro EVs with gearbox failures), plus corrosion and plastic embrittlment will hit EVs too over a couple of decades

EV batteries report of their state of health much better than an ICE does - and they degrade gracefully (unlike an ICE which can fail suddenly and hard)

It will take a very long time before a new battery is needed, and it might be that you choose to sell on to someone who doesn't need as much range as you do and get a newer second hand vehicle.

Take the total cost of ownership - Servicing, fuel, insurance, vehicle tax, finance/depreciation, warranty...

No, you're quite right. Here in the US even new ICE cars lose almost 10% of their "value" as soon as they get a few hundred meters from the dealer showroom. And they lose another 10% per year for the first few years of ownership. Financially, the optimum strategy clearly is to buy a three or so year old low mileage used vehicle. Preferably a model that hasn't proven to be a reliability disaster in its first few model years. I don't imagine that the situation is much different in the UK.

Currently, EVs and PHEVs are, not unreasonably, even worse than ICE/HEV depreciation wise. I'd quote some numbers, but the ones I find online seem to me to be probably distorted by Hertz-Rent-a-car dumping a large number of EVs into the used market, Musk's aggressive price cutting, and high interest rates. Ignoring all that, EVs are still quite costly to begin with, and it's not all that clear what maintenance costs on an elderly EV/PHEV are going to be whereas it's pretty clear that a ICE (or older HEV) without excessive miles may well last well into its second decade before it becomes too aggravating/unreliable to keep on the road.

For me, a EV via salary sacrifice is a good deal

The SO is looking at getting a new car, and for the cars she is after there is next to no difference between petrol vs BEV.

Should have said this is 2nd hand

DS DS 3 crossback, Citreon C3 Aircross

This comment is going to be pretty negative but I am a supporter of a move from fossil fuels. Just seems like it's not being led by consumer desire, which is the best way. Same with heat pumps.

My relative has just taken delivery of an EV. EVs were the only option as her company car. I strongly suspect it is this fleet management policy that is driving EV sales. If large company fleets only offer EV then the figures are (artificially?) buoyant. That said she has gone from £400 a month company car tax on a petrol car to £25 a month tax on an EV, so pretty happy. She went for a plug-in hybrid, as a tiny baby step towards electric travel. Hybrids that charge the battery as you drive were not available. I promise you the car will never be running in electric mode because she does not have a charger at home. Instead her miles-per-gallon for petrol usage will take the hit of having to carry a huge battery around. Doesn't matter financial to her - company car with petrol included - does matter environmentally but I'm not blaming the drivers/buyers.

I was quite astounded to get a lift in a hybrid the other day and found out that it did 38mpg ... My smelly old Fiat will do 52mpg and my older diesel would breach 70mpg ... To me, hybrids are a great idea but mostly implemented to get a green badge ...

There's something very wrong there. Our family sized, hatchback Honda hybrid, with aircon almost always on gets 40-50 mpg easily. Slightly less in very cold weather, significantly more on decent runs of more than a couple of miles. Certainly 70+ on motorway runs.

Honda hybrids have always been very good although a bit quirky! (Gen 1 Insight, I'm looking at you!) Although the 2011/12 and newer Honda hybrids are starting to exhibit BMS failure issues.

Some of the PHEVs seem to have been tuned for getting the best around town CO2 figures when fully charged and there is little scrutiny of their pure ICE performance once it runs out of elec.

As mentioned in the article, there's no doubt it's fleet sales driving the EV numbers - the tax incentives for the driver are too good to ignore. Even ignoring that factor though, going EV for a company car makes sense for me - we have charging points at work so that's not a problem and "my" car (Kia Niro) is a very nice drive (and has the bonus of not looking like it fell off the cover of a 60's sci-fi novel!).

I've got an example of a company moving its fleet to EV. Refunds for hotel nights skyrocketed because of the lack of autonomy of EV compared to ICE so people couldn't get home. The company went backwards for the sake of family life of its employees.

With electricity cost rising fast, I'm not sure the difference with gas in term of cost is so important nowadays.

There's no absolute truth, each case must be evaluated to make a choice not based on dogma.

"Refunds for hotel nights skyrocketed because of the lack of autonomy of EV compared to ICE so people couldn't get home"

Not an issue with autonomy, but with uneducated users.

"With electricity cost rising fast, I'm not sure the difference with gas in term of cost is so important nowadays."

Petrol is ~1.45, Diesel is ~1.50 at the moment (RAC) - that's £6.58/£6.80 per gallon.

Domestic charging is 7p for ~4 miles (1.75p/mile)

For cost parity that needs 376mpg or 389mpg - and the UK average is just 36/43 (nimblefins). So petrol is more than 10 times as expensive, and diesel 9 times.

It's entirely true that most (non Tesla) DC charging stations are much more expensive - they end up at about the same cost as petrol (Tesla often a little over half that).

But they also account for a *tiny* proportion of charging... And should only ever account for a tiny proportion of charging.

Recently a bank of DC chargers has appeared at a shopping centre near me, and it infuriates me. Sure have a couple, but also have an entire area (or more) of the car park supplied with AC units - same max power demand, but much more useful for most people. They're substantially cheaper to buy and install, so the energy cost can be commensurately lower.

I'd go further and drop VAT on AC charger supplied electrons to 5% (or even 0%) to match domestic supply.

"Refunds for hotel nights skyrocketed because of the lack of autonomy of EV compared to ICE so people couldn't get home"

Not an issue with autonomy, but with uneducated users.

Domestic charging is 7p for ~4 miles (1.75p/mile)

Users on business trips are, by definition, not going to be within range of domestic charging, so that's a pretty nonsensical comment. Even an educated user on such a trip would have to charge the car at a public charger, where they're more likely to be paying 60p/unit, and that assumes they can be without the car for long enough on a business day to put a full charge in.

I'd go further and drop VAT on AC charger supplied electrons to 5% (or even 0%) to match domestic supply.

Very nice, for all the taxpayers who'll be subsidising it.

I'd leave the VAT at 20%, the same as for petrol/diesel, and then add the 35% fuel duty charge as well. That would be a more level playing field.

You want a 2016 Outlander PHEV. No road tax . Otherwise, a pretty miserable hybrid, so a normal, slightly thirsty SUV.

"No road tax."

Hasn't been for nearly a century

Not to mention that no country has the power generation required to replace all ICE cars with EVs.

But hey, not to worry, we'll all do like Germany and build new coal-powered energy stations to power all those wonderful climate-respecting EVs, right ?

Care to name any of the new coal-powered plants? The lifetimes of some are indeed being extended but there are no plans for new ones. Mind you, I don't know what half of Europe is going to do in cold, dark winters in the future.

Yes.

I have often wondered where does all the electricity for these vehicles come from? Speaking to a member of the Green Party at the recent general election he said that the hope was it would come from renewables like wind and solar, hah. Hope, that will have to do for now. In the mean time we have to rely on gas and oil power stations and (shudder) nuclear.

It might be a nice to get a little green sticker for your number plate but the pollution is hidden away at the power station.

Oh, thinking about those smug little green stickers. Wasn't one of the reasons the UK didn't fully embrace the blue EU badge was because there wasn't enough room on the plate? Yet there *IS* room for a green "badge of honour"?

Yeah, the whole nation is going to switch to EVs overnight, and the power grid is going to stay exactly as it is.

Some how or other I suspect, given the human capacity for adaptability, we will find a way of making things work, even if it's not what either of us are expecting.

Well our grid is already running at a lower capacity than it did twenty years ago by more than enough to cover all car driving in the UK.

Of course there is lower generation capacity now, but we're not going to switch in ten minutes, it'll be ten-twenty years beyond the final ICE vehicle sale.

.... to some potential buyers' decision-making

Cost of vehicles, yes. But also, public charging costs, too.

The already expensive EV will cost about 30% more per mile for drivers who don't have home charging. i.e. a significant proportion of house owners/renters in towns and cities, and all flat dwellers if they (can) charge in the street.

It is of course much cheaper for the lucky ones with off-street parking and a home charger.

It's expensive to be poor.The Vimes' Boots Theory raises its head again

The irony is as to how brands of politicians in the UK, who are supposedly on the side of the poor, introduce taxes that are retrospective in effect, and a form of regressive taxation on the poor.

I bought a second-hand car back in 2002, with a 1600 cc engine, that was low to midsize, and fairly economical for the range available at the time. After purchase, the then chancellor introduced a new form of car taxation based on the relatively new "fairer" concept of tailpipe CO2 emissions. Rather than introduce this on all cars manufactured after a certain date, hence a market signalling and forewarning, this new set of rates applied on all cars, irrespective of age. My car just fell into an upper category of emission, so I ended up paying more tax than previously.

Although I am not "poor", it did strike me as to how the tradesman/night worker often uses a second-hand vehicle to perform his/her job, and was caught by this.

A strange definition of "fairer".

The irony is as to how brands of politicians in the UK, who are supposedly on the side of the poor, introduce taxes that are retrospective in effect,"

I think that the word you are looking for is regressive.

Retrospective would be if the government started charging for things that had happened in the past.

Oh, see also HMRC and its shenanigans.

That's not how car tax works. I think you are remembering that incorrectly.

If the car is X reg or lower it's still on the [1]old 1549cc and below or 1550cc and above two tier system. It changed to the CO2 based system in march 2001, and then they changed the bands on that system in march 2006 before changing it entirely in 2017 so that you payed relative to CO2 emissions for the first year, and then a static cost in the second year plus a "Big expensive car" add on that you have to pay for the first 5 years.

[1] https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-tax-rate-tables/rates-for-cars-and-light-goods-vehicles-registered-before-1-march-2001

Don't forget insurance: one of my cars is a ford mondeo estate, deisel. Current insurance for business use/20,000 miles/on road parking: £400.

Equiv EV: MG 5 estat, 2nd hand cost: £12,000 roughly the same as the mondeo. insurance for the same level: business use/20,000 miles/on road parking: £2,500

There are several things that could, and should, be done to bring charging costs down for those who can't charge at home.

BUT - a significant majority can (RAC research)

And there are other places to charge... Work, supermarket, literally any car park in fact.

And DC charging should *not* be the norm. and pricing for AC charging should *not* be at business rates +VAT.

The home charger doesn't actually *need* to be more than a standard socket, though obviously you can get more electrons in each night if you have more - but even at 2.4kW (10A, which is well within a 13A socket) you are adding ~10 miles an hour, and since the average daily milage is 20 miles... you actually only need ~2 hours a day... call it 3 to give a good margin.

Just (last week) took delivery of a new ICE car. It was noticeable that once I said at the outset that I was not interested in an EV, they weren't mentioned again during the process of buying it.

My reasons for an ICE were: EV's far more expensive, lack of public chargers, cost of fitment of home charger, and most of all, lack of range compared to the 450 mile range of the petrol tank. Oh, and the length of time to "refill" the damn battery. That's all apart from not knowing the "life" of a battery, and its cost of possible replacement. As for the EV Car Tax, that will go up to current ICE levels, much like unleaded did once 4-star became less common.

"As for the EV Car Tax, that will go up to current ICE levels"

gov.uk: "Electric and low emission cars registered on or after 1 April 2025

You will need to pay the lowest first year rate of vehicle tax (which applies to vehicles with CO2 emissions 1 to 50g/km). From the second tax payment onwards, these vehicles will pay the standard rate. This is £190 for 2024 but is subject to change for 2025."

Already been on the books.

Some of your arguments may very well be true on this day in the UK, but all of them have completely been erased in the past 3 years in the Netherlands. Sure, sometimes you'll have to drive to the next corner to put your car on a charger at a destination but in my experience this is improving daily.

And the wait time to refill the battery? I'm not sure about you, but I don't stand next to the dishwasher for it to finish, I get on with my day when the car is charging.

- EV's far more expensive

They're a little more expensive, but not all that much if you look at TCO (even over just one year)

- Lack of public chargers

Not been an issue for a while, sure we could always use more, but where do you think there aren't enough?

- Cost of fitment of home charger

Then use a three pin plug, or you know, look at that TCO again.

- Lack of range compared to the 450 mile range of the petrol tank

How often do you do more than that range in a day?

- Length of time to "refill" the damn battery

Well I've just done 300 miles on a long weekend for a wedding, with effectively zero time required for charging.

I charged before I left (took maybe two additional seconds last time I parked at home), and it took me another second to plug in when I got home.

What will really drive you crazy is that the battery isn't even full at the moment, I only half charged it the night I returned, I'll do the other half tonight, and then on Thursday I'll do another 300 miles, without ever having to make a special journey (or part journey) to a smelly refuelling station, or spending several minutes standing to refuel.

So that's two seperate three hundred mile journeys in a week with no time spent charging.

And don't forget the CO2 breakpoint for a new EV. The extra CO2 emitted by the manufacturing process (viz. the battery) is a lot higher than an ICE vehicle, and depending on size of car, source of leccy, etc., it takes roughly a minimum of 30,000 miles, some say 50,000 or more, to offset the extra manufacturing CO2 during use, meaning you're not actually saving CO2 in the first 2 to 5 years of use.

This is also why hybrid is sensible, the smaller batteries don't cost as much CO2 (or ££) and are adequate for many local trips, plus you have range in the ICE tank when needed. It's why the hybrid sales are up in spite of the impending ban.

I only wonder how and when governments will row back on the unrealistic targets they've set which have NO chance of making it into the real world.

In terms of environmental friendliness, hybrids are probably the worst of all worlds: the car has to have both batteries and an ICE drivetrain but the batteries are piddling and their range correspondingly tiny. And if that's all you need, great but why not just have a small EV?

Drive them as normal vehicles and you're going to have to pay to move all that extra weight, which is what most of the journeys are. But, with some creative environmental accounting, you can pretend people use the batteries much more than they do, which is just what companies with government incentives are doing.

Hybrids greatly simplify the ICE side of things. Mine doesn't even have a *gearbox* in the sense of a way to vary the ratio between engine and road, its just a single fixed ratio and the engine only directly drives the wheels above 40mph (and then only when there isn't enough stored charge). The 12V electrical system is pared down to the minimum needed to boot up the ECU's, no alternator, no starter, tiny aux battery. And you also don't need a dedicated high powered charger since the battery is relatively modest and can fully charge in under 4 hours from a 13A plug, avoiding the ass-fucking your wallet takes to have a man come round and nail one onto the side of your garage.

Since I got it about half of my miles are fueled from the plug (I do religiously plug it in after use and its on a timer to charge *overnight*) and my petrol usage is about a third of what it was. I can do all the short range journeys to the shops etc wholly on electric or with very minimal petrol usage and I still have the option to go from one end of the country to the other practically non-stop should I need to.

Everyone's pattern of use is a bit different but I believe for many this *is* the sweet spot at this point in the adoption cycle. If everyone could reduce their fossil fuel usage by 2/3's whilst not requiring a fully built-out and economical public charging infrastructure then we'd be well on our way.

Depends on the hybrid. A good hybrid has a smaller than normal ICE engine and uses the motor for extra grunt when needed. You can cruise on the small ICE and silly MPG but still have good acceleration and use the motor for regen braking to charge the battery.

The overly complex hybrids and PHEVs have an electric only mode so you need a battery and motor that is capable of accelerating and powering the vehicle all on its own AND you need a bigger ICE to keep good performance when the battery has run down due to running in all electric mode.

30-50k might be true for the Hummer monstrosity - but it's closer to 15k for normal vehicles.

According to recent statistics most HEV driver do not charge their batteries. Mostly, because it is inconvenient or would require more planning and effort to use available charging infrastructure and since they make sure that fuel is in the tank there are no consequences. Instead people simply drive heavier cars than necessary, which adds more to the carbon footprint than if they simply had bought a pure combustion engine. What a world! We definitely have conflicting goals here: it's the earth against humans - I wonder who is going to win ...

Eh... yes and no.

Massive hybrid SUV's (which does seem to be most things these days, to be sure) are a nightmare in every case. If you do a lot of urban driving tho, small hybrid cars like the Yaris make a certain amount of sense. They' really just leveraging that electric assist to keep the engine spinning in that economy RPM sweet spot so it's not being stressed doing constant idle->power band changes. The second you take them on a long drive the benefit disappears, but not everyone actually does that. Hybrids can work to improve fuel economy, but most of them don't because they weren't designed to. They were designed to sell into specific tax bands.