"As for this non-Tesla household of modest ways and means, we struggle to see our offspring behind the wheel of anything more glamorous than a 2000s Ford Fiesta when they come of age."

A rather interesting conumdrum for parents of children in the UK is "does your child need a manual licence?".... I think it's a useful thing to have for the next 10 years or so... but after that, will new manual licences gradually disappear? In my family, we can't afford to buy and insure a second hand electric car for our learner driver offspring, and have bought a small car that's just outside the bracket of being an old banger for them to practice in. If we could afford a more expensive electric car and the accompanying insurance, would we still have bought the same old small ICE car with a manual gearbox, just so that they can have practice with a gearbox and not end up with an automatic only licence?

Honest question, as someone who has only driven manual until just a few years ago - is it really that difficult?

I mean, driving well enough not to increase wear & tear, yes maybe, but surely learning that you have to shift up when the engine goes braaaaa and shift down when it goes brabrabra is not rocket science?

Clutch control - it takes time to learn.

It makes learning to actually drive much harder, since there is a whole additional set of things to think about, because you have to actually think about the physical control aspects of driving a vehicle. Being able to learn to actually move a vehicle around with all the observations required without having to concentrate on other things makes it much easier.

When I (finally) get around to getting a licence, I'll be going for a manual. I think the hard part is understanding how to feel the engine and when to do the shifting in a number of short lessons whilst also filling your mind with all the other trivia that is necessary to remember. However I have been driving for a while now in a little no-licence car (limited to 45kph/29mph) so I have already come to grips with roundabouts, various road signs, overtaking tractors, and remembering what side of the road I'm supposed to be on. Which, hopefully, will mean more time to get to understand when to change gears.

[my Playmobil car has a Go pedal and a Don't Go pedal, and a gearbox for This Way and The Other Way; driving my mower is more complicated!]

> little no-licence car (limited to 45kph/29mph) so I have already come to grips with ... overtaking tractors

Clearly not the supercharged tractors we get whipping around the place, opening up the throttle as soon as the B roads are wide enough for a dotted line down the middle!

After playing video games set in America that include driving, I've had moments where I've been unsure about which side I should be driving IRL.

I've only ever driven a manual. Both my parents have made the transition to automatic petrol hybrids at this point and my Father, never the keenest driver, absolutely sings the praises of having an automatic.

Personally I'm an absolute control freak when it comes to the two-ton metal box I'm trusted to drive, and I am actively nervous about losing fine control over low speeds in an automatic. I get that they're probably not that bad, and as I said above, I've only ever driven a manual, but not being able to shunt the car around on the clutch just feels wrong :/

Have you ever driven an auto, or more importantly an EV?

I don't feel that I have any less control at low speeds. The only thing that causes that is auto hold on the brakes (which can be disabled easily enough).

I'm looking at cheaper EVs for exactly that reason at the moment. I don't see any issue with getting a clutchless license and then adding manual along with towing etc when they're needed - in fact it should make the licensing process easier.

Can't have them learn in my car, because motability insurance reasonably limits drivers of some vehicles to 25+

I don't see my kids needing to drive hundreds of miles on a regular basis, so older vehicles are fine - but even a few thousand miles of town driving make a substantial petrol budget which could be allocated to buying an EV instead. £1.45/l and 40mpg* and assuming just 5k miles, which is over £800 - in a small EV** that would be under £90 (1250kWh).

That's a substantial factor in the cost of a cheap vehicle, even if a chunk of it is taken out by slightly higher insurance.

It's a good number of months before I need to make a purchase, so I'm keeping my eye on things.

* Whilst a fiesta is theoretically capable of better than this, a learner is likely to be doing more stop/start and less efficient driving anyway.

I've left the UK average here for simplicity.

** Again, a small EV should get better than average, but I've stuck with my default 4m/kWh. Stop/start hurts EVs alot less than ICE.

Big #vimesboots warning at the top here....

Just had a look at comprehensive insurance for an EV on AutoTrader... adding two parents and a (fictional) 17y/o learner who has just got their provisional license.

Total cost for the year... £750. So the saving on fuel completely pays for the insurance.

TPFT was £ 652, TP only £ 664 (yes, that's more than TPFT - go figure)

All three ended up being Admiral - just the top quote on CTM, no major research.

Looking at a Fiesta with nearly three times as many miles on the clock and it's fractionally *more* expensive... I really wasn't expecting that.... 795/683/693 (again, all Admiral, top quote etc)

Obviously those are quotes that apply in my particular circumstance, but the pattern was what I was interested in.

For reference the Fiesta was £1800 cheaper than the EV - but had substantially more than twice the miles on the clock.

If 5k miles/year is expected then that's a little over two years of usage - and since we've been a one car household for many years (15+) having a second runabout could be useful occasionally.

I might even look to add "Any named driver" to the policy so that it can be used by others as well....

I don't expect maintenance costs to favour the ICE, nor car tax etc... I have far more confidence in the EV reliability than I do the ICE, I only just got out of the "no mot", "non runner", "spares/repairs", "clutch slips" section of Auto trader to find that Fiesta.

At least, [1]according to Toyota , whilst with Dodge you [2]can even get an exhaust !

Hmm, one day knowing how to drive manual will become the preserve of the rich and stoopid who want to drive "special" cars, like a faked-out Charger, and of the scrotes who steal them.

True rednecks might want to keep manual, or manly-ual, but will give it up when they realise they can futz the batteries to run hot and do the "rolling coal" with added smokey flavor.

[1] https://electrek.co/2023/12/12/toyota-thinks-its-a-good-idea-to-put-a-fake-manual-transmission-in-an-ev/

[2] https://electrek.co/2022/08/17/dodge-shows-banshee-electric-charger-concept-an-ev-with-exhaust/

Apparently insurance for automatic-only license holders is currently significantly more expensive, because many people that have them aren't very good drivers (often turning to the automatic-only license after multiple failed attempts at a manual test), and have a higher percentage of crashes.

Unfortunately this makes it a self-fulfilling prophecy as if you have the choice between needing a few more lessons to pass a manual test, versus over £1000 more on insurance, anyone with half a brain is still going to take the manual test.

It's about time the car insurance was completely overhauled. If you've got a license that entitles you to drive a vehicle, that should be the end of any questions about the type of license. Their over-use of statistics and profiling is criminally unfair.

Well that might be enough reason to get a clutch license as well, bit of a stupid profiling though.

I do wonder when it will become more common, as EVs become more and more available for learners over the next decade or so.

License needs an overhaul in many directions - I'd like to see graduated licenses (cf+ motorbikes) where a court could fairly easily downgrade a license where they are currently loathe to revoke one.

You misunderstand the concept of insurance, the idea of insurance is to share the risk among a population so if you are higher risk, you pay more. The option to do a manual test even if you only intend to drive automatic cars means it is your choice to be in the same group as risky drivers. The complication with car insurance is that unlike other insurance it is a legal requirement so even if you are higher risk, there is a tendency for some to see it as unfair, that younger people and people of modest means are often paying higher premiums. The only way that we can get around that is government intervention like the NHS in the UK or medicare and medicaid in the US, and its been many decades since that actually improved anything so this is the least worst option. The other thing that would in the long run reduce premiums is safer cars and continuing driver education from government that actually works but again that involves multi national firms and governments coordinating to do good, I just won't hold my breath. Forcing low risk drivers to cover the cost of insuring high risk ones without subsidy from the government will reduce the number of low risk drivers on the road as it gets too expensive and push everyone's premiums and accidents per 1000 miles/kilometers up even further.

The electric vehicle BRAND.

Bad enough El Reg is being Americanised, but now we're supposed to read French as well.

Well, there were such things as letters of marque...

...icon for obvious reasons,

> letters of marque

Hmm, tend to think of Tesla's approach as being more cowboy than pirate, but if that is the way they want us to think of them, happy to oblige.

The Musketeer is a suid afrikaneer. Trekboer, not cowboy.

Hmm, wouldn't you rather have a vehicle with a decent Hallmark or Maker's Mark, rather than treating it like cattle on an American ranch?

(Even I'm not going to suggest going straight for the British equivalent of cattle branding, recognising the manufacturer by the colour of sheep dip they used).

I'm driving my son's manual 2006 Skoda with 105k miles on the clock at the moment as my Tesla is in the garage getting it's rear motor replaced after 96k miles. That's progress!!!!!