(Apart from the fact it would never work): wow, that's a retarded idea, if I ever heard one.

National Service for the youth, massive pension hikes, and now phone bans for kids

What next ... ?

https://newsthump.com/2024/05/28/from-asbestos-to-white-dogshit-six-cherished-things-of-our-past-the-government-is-pledging-to-bring-back/

*And only four channels that on a Saturday afternoon when you're not at school, showed nothing but boring sports and a black and white film*

Though now I've matured I would be glad of that source of black and white movies (apparently a fair few films that the BBC showed back in the 1980s haven't had dvd releases). As a child, TV was boring enough to drive us outside to climb / build / break / ride / set fire to something.

Talking Pictures TV...

(they even have some in colour)

Fireball XL5... Those test-cardy programmes about mangelwurzel harvesting in Basingstoke...

"National Service for the youth"

They seem to have taken the first episodes of Tes Minister (getting rid of rthe difficult bit in the title) and now Yes Prime Minister (national service) as a source of ideas. Did nobody tell them it was saire?

"massive pension hikes"

Anyone old enough to remember YM and YPM is probably in favour of this.

That last line is going to be the reason you will get all the downvotes on this.

It's as if the Tories are not even going for the pretext of trying to win...

Free llamas for every school! Compulsory beards for chicken farmers!

It's obviously causing these out breaks of ghastly frightfullness among the youth.

Yours

Col Throat Warbler Mangrove (retd)

Only this morning I witnessed hijinks on the thoroughfare outside. It's these rappists with their rap music to blame. Since teachers lost the ability to break children's limbs for insolence it's been downhill. Never did me any harm.

Karen Piers-Morgan

Broadmoor, Berkshire

I agree, ban books.

Kids today reading this disgusting filth from Chaucer and not practicing their archery

Also ban hoodies. And bring back the birch. And national service!

Way too "woke" and "wishy washy pc liberal" - even the gallows isnt firm enough, bring back burning at the stake and breaking on the wheel I say ( /s )

Gallows? We used to dream of gallows. We had to be hit by meteorites until we had a hole. Then we had to live in the hole.

Bring back capital punishment in schools - Nail em up I say, nail some sense into them

Do you really want to bring back Mary Whitehouse ?

The problem is not smart phones, it is social media and their algorithms. If the lower age for kids to use social networking is 13 (by their own conditions), turn it into law and prosecute if it can be shown that they allow under-13s onto their site. It only takes one.

The problem is not smart phones, it is social media and their algorithms.

Yes and no. Smartphones enable a level of online bullying which can be difficult to detect and address. This can often take place in social platforms such as group chats in messenger services. But it's also endemic in straight messaging platforms like WhatsApp. Kids taking photos or mocking videos, sometimes of other bullying events and sharing them across a school becomes trivial (although so does evidence gathering - save to phone & screenshot the chats).

Obviously kids scrapping in a back alley will always will be a thing, but there's half a chance someone will pass by, or parents will notice the bruises when they walk in as opposed to "are they acting a bit odd?" as their child quietly has a mental breakdown from the barrage of ugly messages. Moreover, traditional bullying is unlikely to exist much out of school and certainly not in a child's own home (abusive domestic situations notwithstanding). But with a phone they're tethered to the bullying and get to take it home with them.

Many of us will turn our work laptops off at the end of the day, or leave the work phone at home when we leave on holiday. Do we let kids "unplug" from what's going on at school in the same way?

This is basically unavoidable with any personal messaging device. Dumb phones with limited media capability would stem it to harsh words rather than videos, but the fact is that kids can be vile.

On the flip side normalising the idea of being required to turn over a phone "for inspection" is equally problematic as it de-sensitises the child to surveillance capitalism, loss of privacy, and could be dangerous for kids in a domestic abuse situation.

Schools which ban phones during the school day and require them to be handed in or left in lockers are basically doing the right thing. That at least limits the opportunity for in-school shenanigans, taking videos in changing-rooms or anything like that (which should and probably is handled on a zero-tolerance basis - read them the riot act on "this is basically a sex offence").

In terms of banning phones for under-16s, I'm in two minds. On the one hand. Sure, why not? We all managed (albeit there used to be payphones for edge cases. W've done away with that, just like public transport - everyone drives don't they?!). Teenagers don't actually need to be permanently connected to the internet (no, really, they don't). On the other hand, in the same vein as alcohol, it's probably not a great idea for them to be dunked face-first into it on their 16th birthday. Build up a respect and understanding - half a glass of wine with dinner on a friday or whatever. Demystify it.

The key issue tends to be that it requires parenting. And a lot of people would love for "the techie coders" to develop a technical solution for a social problem. Which isn't going to happen.

--------

Tangentially related is the fact phones get in the way of kids growing up and dealing with the world on their own. I used to help with a Scout group. This was 10 years ago and kids were getting feature phones or basic smart phones. We went on one camp and a younger kid (~13, only just up from Cubs) came to us to say "someone's stolen my money. I've called my mum, she'll be here in half an hour".

Now, in the first instance - nobody had nicked his money. We found his wallet in the bottom of his sleeping bag within two minutes of actually looking.

Secondly, his first response - instead of coming to the actual adults/leaders and resolving the issue quickly - was to call home, spin the terrible "I've been robbed" story and get her to drive 90 minutes (not half an hour. This was a longer distance away camp!) to come and see us.

As a general rule we started banning phones from camps, except where we were going hiking, because although we did of course follow POR and have emergency phones, radios and backups, we always figured it didn't hurt for every kid to have a phone (on a diversity of networks) in their rucksack in case things went uncommonly sideways. Also for we sent them off to do sections or walks on their own.

>"The Education Select Committee found no evidence that 13-year-old children could understand the implications of allowing platforms to have access to their personal data online."

I have found no evidence that most of the adults I know understand this.

It stands to reason. All the adults you know used to be 13.

As a four year old kid I learned about light-speed calculations, after hearing about all of Albert Einstein's work on the BBC radio - my mother had been reading me "Old Possum's Book of Practical Cats" every night and I had heard that Macavity, the mystery cat, could defy the law of gravity so I wanted to work it all out ... with no phones in those days I had to listen to the radio all the time and every broadcast about Einstein was very helpful.

Smart phones for kids are OK but reading books is MUCH BETTER! The risks of smart-phones are not as high as walking through a herd of cows and checking that you don't step on a snake - I never got bit by a snake and always walked around the cows. I might have liked a smart phone in those days but listening to the radio was fine.

What about teaching the kids about basics of online security and not to give away their details to random people?

Might be better than some knee-jerk reaction of "The kids are using these things which didn't exist when we were their age! It must be banned!!" which is bullshit.

Politicians aren't usually in favour of teaching kids critical thinking.

My kid (now doing A-levels) has been taught online security (to a reasonably competent degree) since primary school.

Also, don't forget that for a significant percentage of 2020, school lessons were online only .

Recording videos of bullies, location tracking by parents,

Being able to phone for help if in danger.

Allowing friend to use phone to phone childline.

Making broadband and mobile service providers provide free content filtering might be better.

Thought the UK mobile providers already provided content filtering on by default.

And many of the larger broadband providers have it as an option.

Most of which is available on dumb (or feature) phones.

Recording videos of bullies

Unfortunately, more often than not used by bullies to record their bullying, circulated around the school to mock the victim or torment the kid with later on. Of course they're documenting the case against themselves, if that stuff comes to light before the victim attempts to end it all (and no, I'm not being flippant with that last remark).

location tracking by parents,

Great, assuming the parents themselves are not abusive control freaks. Seriously, we've managed for millenia. The "dragged into the bushes" routine is astonishingly rare. Kidnap/rape/murder is overwhelmingly committed by trusted adults. There's a reason the high profile exceptions are high profile - they're very, very unusual.

Also, if you're that desperate - airtags (other trackers are available).

Being able to phone for help if in danger.

Yes, I guess especially now we've ripped out all our phone boxes. But is there any evidence mobile phones have actually provided meaningful benefits to people in danger vs. the 1980s? They probably have, but the stats are probably a wash when balanced against stalkers. In terms of things like getting into trouble whilst hiking... people didn't carry a f-ing map in the 80s, and they still don't know how to give mountain rescue an accurate grid reference today. That's not a technical problem. (FWIW for Brits, the free OS Locate app [1]iOS , [2]Android gives you a compass, altimeter and OS grid ref. No mapping or nav, but it'll tell you where you are, which could save your life, although you should never go out without a paper map, physical compass and the knowledge of how to use both).

Allowing friend to use phone to phone childline.

Landlines exist?

Making broadband and mobile service providers provide free content filtering might be better.

They do. It's usually on by default as well, even for adults until you knock it off.

This doesn't stop bullying, predatory behaviour on social media or other societal ills. It's also usually quite trivial to bypass.

-------------------

At the end of the day, all this is technical solutions to social problems. We had plenty of child sex abuse in the 1980s, committed by Saville, priests and trusted adults in care homes. Those kids didn't lack for a mobile phone. They could have told a teacher or a used a payphone. They didn't because they didn't feel empowered to, or that they wouldn't be believed. The more recent grooming gang scandals have all involved kids who definitely did have phones (that's how their pimps contacted them and exerted control from a distance).

All this comes down to "do kids feel able to talk to someone about their issues?".

Like, that's actually it. The whole thing in a nutshell. If the answer is "no they don't" then the parent has failed, or the school is not creating a supportive environment - distracted with OFSTED outcomes and box-ticking than doing a good job.

"Is a kid going to come and talk to someone about it?" is the single, root consideration for basically everything from bullying to domestic abuse to grooming and external sex abuse.

Smartphones are basically irrelevant in that discussion. Sure, that's one way of doing it. Talking to a teacher, emailing an abuse support agency from school or walking into a library (remember them?!) and asking "Can I use your phone to call childline?" are all options. Kids having personal mobile phones maybe offers some personal agency in being able to call childline themselves or with a friend, and that's undoubtedly a good thing. But we shouldn't rely on it because not every child does actually have their own phone. We need to structure our society in such a way that it's easy for anyone to access these services regardless of whether they have a phone, their phone is being monitored or whatever else.

[1] https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://apps.apple.com/gb/app/os-locate/id810024913&ved=2ahUKEwiniJ_d1bCGAxXxRkEAHbghBkoQFnoECBAQAQ&usg=AOvVaw1bdnKAbT30ZKJe_CvnUjfm

[2] https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://play.google.com/store/apps/details%3Fid%3Duk.co.ordnancesurvey.oslocate.android%26hl%3Den_GB%26gl%3DUS&ved=2ahUKEwiniJ_d1bCGAxXxRkEAHbghBkoQFnoECBEQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2s8vVCw1_7yFJfR1w-lDet

People's Republic of Great Britain.

Instead of trying to implement more and more bans on more and more things and behaviours, how about trying things which make parents take the responsibilities that they have as parents seriously?

The government is not (and should not be) responsible for ensuring that your children are brought up to be responsible and functioning members of society.

And to all of you suggesting that the responsibility for constraining access to social media and the Internet in general by children is the government's problem to fix, think again. The only way to do that is to make it impossible to use the Internet without having to legally identify yourself. This is an exceptionally bad idea. An Internet with no possibility to be anonymous is something the government would love, and you are playing right into big brother's hands.

Its too late, the horse has bolted. It would be very hard to have a 17 year old who has had their phone since 14, stand next to a 16 years old who will be told "it doesn't matter what your friends have, its illegal"

Its not even kids buying the phones anyway its the parents. Which have the common wisdom of "it doesn't matter what the law says I'm their legal guardian and in will buy the phone"

Unless you want brutal police state that care more about kids having phones than actual crimes, not least those perpetrated by those handing down the same laws, there no easy way to enforce this. ID everyone with a phone regardless of age...

Oh I see now, IDs for children...

"Oh I see now, IDs for children..."

Scotland already has that via the back-door.

Look up Young Scot National Entitlement card.

Basically gives under 22's free bus travel amongst other things but all 'helpfully' taken care of by schools.

It's almost as if A) more and more of children's homework is processed in online platforms and B) there aren't enough safe options for modern kids to physically hang out with their friends with even marginal privacy from their parents.

Would they arrest parents for buying their kids phones?

Would they arrest kids for phone possession?

How much more of a police state will that country become?

This is stupid, and these idiots need to be removed from power at the earliest convenience.