Elon Musk's latest brainfart is to turn Tesla cars into AWS on wheels
- Reference: 1714482013
- News link: https://www.theregister.co.uk/2024/04/30/tesla_ai_workloads/
- Source link:
The Elon Musk-led outfit said in its recent [1]earnings conference call for calendar Q1 that it had noticed its vehicles spend a considerable amount of their time just sitting there not moving. Many pack in a decent amount of processing power, so why not get them to do something useful and earn some cash for the company as well?
Speaking on the conference call, Musk said that he thought most Teslas were probably used for about a third of the hours in a week.
[2]
"But then there's certainly going to be some hours left for charging and cleaning and maintenance in that world, you can do a lot of other workloads," added Tesla's Director of Autopilot Software, Ashok Elluswamy.
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He claimed that AI companies have batch workloads where they send "a bunch of documents" that are run through large neural networks and "take a lot of compute to chunk through."
"And now that we have already paid for this compute in these cars, it might be wise to use them and not let them be, like, buying a lot of expensive machinery and leaving to them idle. We don't want that. We want to use the computer as much as possible and close to like basically 100 percent of the time to make full use of it," Elluswamy said.
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"It takes a lot of intelligence to drive the car anyway. And when it's not driving the car, you just put this intelligence to other uses, solving scientific problems like a human or answering dumb questions for someone else," he added.
Musk compared it to Amazon Web Services, saying that people didn't foresee that AWS would become the most valuable part of Amazon.
"They [Amazon] found that they had excess compute because the compute needs would spike to extreme levels for brief periods of the year, and then they had idle compute for the rest of the year. So what should they do with that excess compute for the rest of the year? That's kind of, yeah, monetize it," Musk explained.
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"If you get, like, to the 100 million vehicle level, which I think we will at some point get to, and you've got a kilowatt of usable compute – I think you could have on the order of 100 gigawatts of useful compute, which might be more than anyone, more than any company, probably more than any company," he mused.
Of course, all this compute capacity isn't sitting conveniently clustered together in a datacenter. It is distributed here and there, reached via a cellular connection in each Tesla, or possibly via Wi-Fi if the car is on the owner's driveway.
[7]Musk schmoozes Chinese Premier as Tesla Full Self-Driving remains parked
[8]Musk moves Tesla's goalposts, investors happily move shares higher
[9]Tesla misses the mark on all fronts in quarter of chaos
[10]Tesla slashes vehicle and self-driving-ish software prices as shares plummet
So the model Tesla would be looking at is perhaps more akin to edge computing, such as [11]Heata in the UK, which uses heat from servers in homes to provide domestic hot water and rents out the compute capacity via cloud company Civo.
Among the issues we can see is that Tesla would be effectively using electricity that the car owner has paid for to run any workloads while it is idle, so would they get a cut of the money generated?
Yes, it seems. CFO Vaibhav Taneja, said "the capex is shared by the entire world. Sort of everyone owns a small chunk, and they get a small profit out of it maybe."
Would Tesla owners be able to opt out if they didn't want their vehicle used this way? That wasn't answered but it seems likely, that is, if the plan ever gets off the drawing board. There's no guarantee that it will actually come to fruition, for various reasons.
IDC Senior Research Director for Digital Infrastructure Andrew Buss said the idea sounds technically feasible, but the potential downsides are perhaps too big to justify it being actually implemented.
"They'd not even be edge processing nodes as the code and data would have to be centrally managed and stored and then packaged and sent for processing before being returned once complete," he told The Register .
Other downsides include third-party code and data running on a private asset, Buss said, and if taking power from the battery, this would accelerate the degradation of these, which are the single most expensive and crucial part of a Tesla and need to be kept in as optimal a shape as possible for longevity and consistency of range.
In other words, Tesla might well find that implementing this idea may prove more trouble than it is actually worth for the returns it generates.
And as The Register [12]noted after the earnings conference, Elon has a habit of throwing out wild ideas when things aren't going well to distract the punters and energize investors. This could well be one of them. ®
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[1] https://www.theregister.com/2024/04/24/tesla_q1_2024/
[2] https://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/jump?co=1&iu=/6978/reg_onprem/front&sz=300x50%7C300x100%7C300x250%7C300x251%7C300x252%7C300x600%7C300x601&tile=2&c=2ZjEVotuYnZ58lon0tcjuWQAAAIw&t=ct%3Dns%26unitnum%3D2%26raptor%3Dcondor%26pos%3Dtop%26test%3D0
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[6] https://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/jump?co=1&iu=/6978/reg_onprem/front&sz=300x50%7C300x100%7C300x250%7C300x251%7C300x252%7C300x600%7C300x601&tile=3&c=33ZjEVotuYnZ58lon0tcjuWQAAAIw&t=ct%3Dns%26unitnum%3D3%26raptor%3Deagle%26pos%3Dmid%26test%3D0
[7] https://www.theregister.com/2024/04/29/elon_musk_china_visit/
[8] https://www.theregister.com/2024/04/24/musk_moves_tesla_goalposts_back/
[9] https://www.theregister.com/2024/04/24/tesla_q1_2024/
[10] https://www.theregister.com/2024/04/22/tesla_cuts_prices/
[11] https://www.theregister.com/2023/01/12/heata_offers_free_hot_water/
[12] https://www.theregister.com/2024/04/24/musk_moves_tesla_goalposts_back/
[13] https://whitepapers.theregister.com/
Perverse logic
"And now that we have already paid for this compute in these cars, it might be wise to use them ..."
No, you've paid a bit for the hardware, the user has paid a lot more for that hardware, and the user is paying for the power. I wonder when reality will register with the muskrat (or is it just that he's always looking for his own main chance)?
Re: Perverse logic
I think it is also when the reality registers with the users of said vehicles.
There appears to be a strange cult around Tesla that they are somehow light years better than any other vehicle on the road.
They are just a large battery, computer & crummy software in a convenient tin box on wheels.
Sadly I don't see that happening any time soon.
Re: Perverse logic
And not a well assembled tin box on wheels, I'll add. I hear the old old morris Minis had better panel gaps from the factory...
Farts
The problem is that whenever Musk lets one go people start running after it.
The same happened with Hyperloop and to my amazement there are still people at it. Most Hyperloop projects have shut down for lack of funding but some are still running on, mostly, inertia.
Re: Farts
The base theory of the hyperloop is sound, people have been using pneumatic tubes for around a century or longer. The problem comes in trying to scale that idea over a long distance. Trying to create a vacuum in a tube potentially hundreds of miles long is a lot different from a bank drive up teller lane of maybe a couple dozen feet.
I've a whole stack of compute power in the house. The thought of putting it to use, and potentially even getting a profit from it, has crossed my mind before. I lumped in with Team Reg on the Folding@Home drive during covid. But the fact of the matter was that, even with actual computers, permanently powered, it was generally more hassle than it was worth. I had to pause the client whenever I needed the machine for actual use, and I gradually just stopped turning it on again. When I replaced that machine, the Folding@Home client was never reinstalled.
So, on a machine that's pretty close to an optimal use case for distributed computing, by a guy who's interested in the concept, the idea still ended up being impractical. Add in the fact that the machine is now embedded in a car, with a questionable data connection, questionable ownership / control of the software and a questionable effect on the battery life of the vehicle, and you may be forgiven for coming to the conclusion that this is an idea not worth pursuing.
Let's not even think about what might happen if the car's computers' response times suddenly take a dive while driving because this "distributed computing" module decides to kick in at an inopportune time. Let's take the time to get the bloody thing working right before we distract ourselves on tangential uses, eh Tesla?
"Let's burn electricity on absolute horse shite"
It's the techbro mantra.
Tesla's used 1/3rd of the time?
That's vastly more than any typical vehicle... I struggle to see how that's even remotely possible.
Re: Tesla's used 1/3rd of the time?
Yeah, the typical American day!
8 hours sleeping
8 hours commuting
8 hours working
Let me guess...
Will it earn Tesla $30,000 dollars per year per car?
Just like the Robo-taxi? LOL. I mean, when the cars are that profitable post sale, why even bother selling the cars in the first place and just keep them for yourself along with all the annual profit, becoming the world's biggest global self driving taxi firm?
That's what I'd do, if it were even remotely true. But then I'm not a tech genius.
Re: Let me guess...
I think it depends what you mean by "Earn".
If we are talking about waffle to inflate the share price so that the crazy investors make more money then yes.
I thought the latest wheeze was to sub. your car out to other users when you're not using your Tesla. How's this tally with that equally harebrained concept?
Theft Act applies in the UK
Theft Act 1968, s.13: "A person who dishonestly uses without due authority, or dishonestly causes to be wasted or diverted, any electricity shall on conviction on indictment be liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding five years."
And that's not including additional wear on batteries and (particularly) flash memory, inflicted by all of this. Presumably, Tesla would be responsible for network charges, so there's that, I guess.
If Musk is serious about this, he'd better have a really good deal for owners in exchange for having their cars used as four-wheeled data centres, and a cast-iron opt-out if they don't want it. He'll also need a very strong way to ensure client data can't be intercepted and observed by tech-savvy car owners, because it's going to have to be processed "in the clear" (unencrypted) by the car's processors. (Will they be TEMPEST-shielded? I think not.)
Re: Theft Act applies in the UK
> it's going to have to be processed "in the clear" (unencrypted) by the car's processors.
I don't know enough to judge the the current state of homomorphic encryption efforts, but the remote processing of sensitive data is an area of active research:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homomorphic_encryption
The idea that running a workload on an otherwise idle CPU is "free" needs to die. It consumes power. Very likely, more power than you'd expect, because if you're doing this thing, your workload is going to be some highly-parallel crunch that maxes out the CPU in a way that regular usage doesn't even approach. Power is not free.
Do it for charity, for some research project you believe in, but don't do it to give someone else your money.
The fact that it runs off a battery, a component that is subject to wearing out with usage, is just adding injury to injury.
The distributed computing thing was solved a while ago, as you say for research it's a good fit. I have some machines (which have to be on all the time) running Boinc even today.
It sounds a nice idea, but it's not something they designed the compute to do. (I'm assuming they're talking about the autopilot computer, which has meaningful compute power)
1) The autopilot computer is watercooled, which seems neat and efficient if you're driving the car and need to temperature control drive motors, battery packs, passengers, etc. But running the big waterpump just to cool the compute is a huge power overhead.
2) Waterpump and cooling system wear and tear, was it designed for 24x7 use? Is Tesla going to provide an extended warranty for those who (presumably) opt in
3) Flash use - was the MCU or the AP computer designed with the wear cycles for getting a constant stream of new data to crunch, or was it intended to receive an updated model about once a month (I suspect the later) and is Tesla going to provided an extended warranty
4) Charging - those with home charging might not be particularly fussed if their car chews through battery while sat on the driveway and recharged overnight. Those without home chargers, or away on the road may feel differently... I'd say charging cycles on the battery is unlikely to be a huge issue
5) Age of chips. Yes, they're mighty fine computers, but Telsa refreshes only about every 5 years, is the 5 year old AP chip in a 2 year old car actually worth the energy cost?
There might be some who would happily accept this for a small cut, but it's definitely one of those cases where owners would need to be able to opt in/out, and I doubt much serious thought has gone into the idea, the aim is simply to distract from the declining sales.
Steve 53: please stop calling it autopilot. It’s not an “autopilot”. A mate of mine paid 7K euro a couple of years ago just for the option on his Tesla, he believed Musky McMuskFace when told that “full self-driving” was only a few years away.
Other than that : you made the effort to actually state possible issues. Why ? Based on Tesla’s past “roadmap” it’s pretty clear that they want to boost stock price with unfeasible announcements. Or maybe they’re just looking for ways to finance the manchild’s payout…
I've used that terminology as that's the terminology tesla use for their compute architecture, and making reference to elements of their architecture was required for the argument to be coherent.
terminology
Understood Steve. And your argument was very coherent, I learnt today that Tesla’s guidance systems are somewhat inefficient regarding power usage ;-)
Then again, I have no idea what the same features on my car “cost” regarding power consumption. When I got it I was mainly focused on trying to dial all the privacy-related knobs to zero… And I’m still not sure I found them all.
Re: terminology
Cool.
They're actually a pretty efficient way of doing things when driving.
The octovalve is a level of over-engineering that other companies can only dream of. It's extremely good at shunting heat around, eg in the winter the heat from the AP computer, motor inverters, etc will end up being dumped in the cabin and/or battery.
The problem comes when you want to run the compute on it's own, for example when in sentry mode or when charging (That has a 300w overhead as well, because it needs to run the waterpump to cool the onboard charger).
And, privacy settings on a Tesla, I mean, there are settings available.. But if you want things like... navigation.. to work, you're going to to adjust the privacy settings.
What do you think an autopilot does?
Autopilots are very stupid, and only work in aircraft because so much of the flight is both very boring and the risk of collisions is very small, since the enforced separations keep planes apart.
Biggest issue: if your car is charging AND running its processor/GPU at full tilt, either charging is going to go MUCH slow (due to power being actively consumed) or not charge at all.
Not really, the compute is about 300w*. A typical domestic charger is 7kw
* Approximate draw when running the compute stack for sentry mode, which means running coolant pumps, AP compute and MCU. Actual AP processor is reportedly about 72w, although it's hard to verify that from decent sources, or confirm if that's for both of the processors or each.
Doge
He's going to be using cars to mine Dogecoin, isn't he?
Re: Doge
That was my first thought, as well. Everyone into the crypto mining pool.
Re: Doge
Well somebody has got to pay for the upkeep of this place https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doge's_Palace
(pirate icon because Venice is a barely floating extortion racket and.... daaaaaaahhh!!!!!!!!).
"[A]nd they get a small profit out of it maybe."
So many weasel words, so few actual words.
The Discount is Baked In!
Want to opt-out, that will be an extra $5,000.
Ah business
So the car is like a lease except I buy it outright and still don't own it?
That sounds great for everyone excet me who bought the car?
I'll stick with my dumb as a brick non-connected car for now okay?
Not a bad idea...
....it just needs to be done right.
#1 Fair. If power and compute is being used, then equitable compensation is warranted. This could be as low-cost to Tesla as giving away their self-driving license in exchange. To balance out the extra 'wear and tear', toss in extended warranty coverage on hardware and significant discounts on battery replacement.
#2 Transparent. The amount of power consumed is reported to the vehicle owner. They know exactly what their costs are.
#3 Opt-in / Opt-out. This is off by default, and no sneaking it in to tricky legal documents either. The vehicle owner can fully and completely opt-out at any time with no penalty.
Anything less, and this idea is dead on arrival.
Dead cat on the table alert!
BoJo's tactic to distract from whatever SNAFU he was currently embroiled in
Re: Dead cat on the table alert!
Failing that, it's time for someone to drop another crotch-spawn
Example #567287 proving that Xitler doesn't know WTF he's talking about.
Get with the program Elon /s
> Elon Musk's latest brainfart is to turn Tesla cars into AWS on wheels
Get with the program Elon and all this snarking in the media and your litigation problems will just evaporate away /s
Theft
So, steal customer's energy and degrade the battery.
Wow.