And here I thought you were getting your science back into your own hands. No more EU science dictates. Just plain old UK scientific ingenuity and progress for the sake of science UK. And now you want back to the old EU guards dictating science for you? How dare you! You need Sciexit, now!

/s

EU bastards - Punishing us for leaving by letting us back in, giving us what we want.

It’s a great shame. Being in Horizon is not in our national interest, and a waste of our taxpayers money. We would be far better spending the same money on our own university R&D directly, without the incompetent middleman mis-directing the research.

However, Sunak is our prime minister, democratically elected, and entitled to act as he sees fit. And we, the electorate, are entitled to act as *we* see fit, which means he’s going to be out of office in less than 12 months. The electorate is going to punish him for this, and rightly so. Hopefully, in a decade or so time, when all the fuss has died down, some other U.K. prime minister is going to decide to stop the program again. Which we would be entitled to do unilaterally, without begging for permission.

So, b0llchit, please could you give a quick rundown of all the Nobel prizes won by FP and Horizon-funded programs? €15bn annually, thirty years of Framework Programs before Horizon, total spend roughly half a *trillion* euro. Pro rata, compared to other R&D grants, you should be able to name around *forty* Nobels. In fact, there are *zero*. Zero. All there is, is endless lies written by the Commission, like this:

https://research-and-innovation.ec.europa.eu/news/all-research-and-innovation-news/eu-funded-scientists-among-nobel-prize-winners-physics-2022-10-04_en

The work that Alain Aspect did to win his Nobel Prize was done in 1982, before any of the Framework Programmes. It was done at ESO Orsay under national French funding. Nothing to do with EU.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspect%27s_experiment

Let’s do another random lie-search:

https://sciencebusiness.net/news/european-research-council-reflects-its-formula-backing-nobel-prize-winners

What’s that? They’ve backed 15 Nobels? Really? Which ones? Ah, Novoselov and Geim, for the discovery of graphene at Manchester University. Which was funded by *EPSRC* in 2003. When did the EU get involved? An ERC “starting grant” in 2011, eight years after the groundbreaking work was done. Then the EU funded the Graphene Flagship billion euro project….in 2017. And co-funded the National Graphene Institute….from 2013. In other words, the EU decided to fund the work *once he was already famous*.

That’s just a random example of the lies the EU Commission tell you. Endless, endless lies. You should gain some expertise, in a real science, read the research programmes that are really ongoing, then you would be in a position to judge. Until then, you’re just another gullible idiot taken in by the lies.

Fantastic news, hopefully Erasmus will be restored soon too.

I really wouldn't hold your breath there.

Whilst Erasmus isn't technically dependent on Freedom of Movement, the program does rely on easy movement of people. When Switzerland voted to restrict immigration from the EU, they were suspended from the program.

Erasmus membership would require immigration controls that would make the swivel-eyed loons' heads explode. So I don't see it happening under this government.

That's not to say it's impossible. Just that the barriers to entry are very much ours, not the EUs...

> When Switzerland voted to restrict immigration from the EU, they were suspended from the program.

Thte EU is engaged in a campaign to try to bully Switzerland into doing as it is told. This was part of punishment beatings, not a required action.

If the EU was willing, it would have been trivial to find a solution to that.

The EU has simply responded to Switzerland's decision to breach agreements.

Chances are Erasmus restoration won't happen under this lot. That science got their way with Horizon is already a miracle in itself. Besides, we have the TURING scheme, don'tchaknow. Eras-who?

;-)

It is potentially possible for the UK to be a third country associated with the Erasmus programme like North Macedonia, Serbia and Türkiye are and I hope that a future government would aim for UK membership of this scheme.

Just hilarious. All that pomp about how much richer and better the country would be if we didn't have to ship untold billions to the EU. Turns out the country is too poor to stop schools from crumbling, keep roads in decent condition or meet the healthcare needs of the population.

All that Brexit hubris finally being put right one painful step at a time.

Meanwhile, those responsible oscillate from saying 'things are great' to 't'wasnt us, it was covid'. As if the UK is the only country having to deal with a pandemic it hadn't planned for.

Nobody ever said that we shouldn't cooperate with the EU on anything.

There are people opposed to this, there are people in favour of this. I have no view on that.

However I do have a view on how silly you look pretending that this vindicates your federalist ideology.

( Also if your last sentence is talking about how badly Britain has done economically since Brexit, you are a couple of weeks out of date. The ONS has substantially revised its estimates and Britain has performed far, far better than previously claimed. Perhaps try staying current. ).

> Nobody ever said that we shouldn't cooperate with the EU on anything.

Err.. so we left Horizon because we were all for co-operating with the EU right?

...'Piffle' in the words of BoJo. I never put forward a federalist ideology. And whatever the ONS data might say, just take a look at the reality - crumbling schools, failing health service, potholes galore. Yea we're doing great mate.

> Err.. so we left Horizon because we were all for co-operating with the EU right?

The EU kicked Britain out of Horizon ( despite Israel being members ). Rejoining Horizon was negotiated a few years ago but the EU decided to hold it up.

If you're going to drift off topic, the "crumbling schools" were started to be built by Harold Wilson. The problem became apparent in 1994. The urgency happened because there was an incident with this material recently meaning it was now an urgent problem. The government decided to do the right thing and close the schools affected so nobody would die from this.

The SNP in Scotland decided to just leave the schools open. Who cares if a school might collapse with the pupils still inside if it is politically expedient to just keep the schools open?

Yes, I agree, having the centre-left uniparty in power since 1997 hasn't been great, but that isn't really relevant here, is it?

The EU kicked Britain out of Horizon ( despite Israel being members ).

No, the UK could not be a full member of Horizon any more as it was not a member state any more and there was no legal basis for it to continue to be a full member of Horizon. The terms of the UK's associate status were agreed in the TCA.

Rejoining Horizon was negotiated a few years ago but the EU decided to hold it up.

There was no timeframe specified in the TCA over Horizon. However the UK did not implement many areas in the WA and TCA concerning Northern Ireland. So you're complaining about the EU taking its sweet time to do something at the same time as the UK was guilty of not keeping its side of the bargain. Oddly enough now the UK has finally promised to keep its side of the bargain the EU has stopped dragging its feet. Funny that.

The government decided to do the right thing and close the schools affected so nobody would die from this.

I suppose it also did the right thing in 2010 as well when the slithy Gove [1]decided to stop renovating the school estate in good time (aka Building Schools for the Future) meaning nobody would have been in danger, no schools would have had to be closed at all, and nobody's education would have had to have been interrupted.

[1] https://www.theguardian.com/education/2023/aug/31/english-schools-told-to-close-buildings-made-with-crumble-risk-concrete

( Also if your last sentence is talking about how badly Britain has done economically since Brexit, you are a couple of weeks out of date. The ONS has substantially revised its estimates and Britain has performed far, far better than previously claimed. Perhaps try staying current. ).

You are correct, the ONS has revised recent statistics. Which is good. The performance, as described by The Economist has gone from "abysmal" to "poor", compared to other countries - which have not yet revised their statistics in the same manner.

[1]The Economist (2023-09-04): Britain’s statisticians fix a blunder and find a bigger economy - The figures used to look abysmal. Now they’re only poor

[1] https://www.economist.com/britain/2023/09/04/britains-statisticians-fix-a-blunder-and-find-a-bigger-economy

Germany in recession and short of workers, France having medicine shortages.

Were the Remain side telling the truth when they made these claims before the referendum? Was their lie just leaving out that these things would happen to Germany and France rather than Britain?

From Andrew Neil just now: "German manufacturing output showed worse-than-expected 0.8% contraction over past month. 3rd month in a row that factory activity has shrunk. Economists warn that economic stagnation is the “new normal” in Germany."

Maybe they shouldn't have left the EU.

"Germany in recession and short of workers"

Just for your amusement I recently read that Germany finally managed to provide over 50% of their energy through 'green' methods. Not because the green output improved but because their economy shrunk. Not that its an EU issue affecting Germany (the green madness is killing their economy) but something of interest given our countries green obsession.

I read this week that Germany have torn down (or plan to tear down) a wind farm so they can dig up the coal that was buried underneath it.

Source, perhaps?

Google.

@Charlie Clark

"Source, perhaps?"

To be fair its old news. Very quick google and even the Guardian reported on it- https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/oct/26/german-windfarm-coalmine-keyenberg-turbines-climate

A more detailed analysis can be found on the website of the Fraunhofer Institute: https://www.ise.fraunhofer.de/en/press-media/press-releases/2023/german-net-power-generation-in-first-half-of-2023-renewable-energy-share-of-57-percent.html

There has, indeed, effectively been some export of production such as ammonia to other countries due to higher energy prices and Germany is not alone in this. However, prices under the merit-order principle are set by the most expensive marginal producer. Capacity is down but so is load with renewables picking up the slack as nuclear and coal generation goes offline. And, after a lull, capacity, particularly, solar is increasing rapidly again.

Industry is suffering as a result of higher power prices but it's nothing like as bad as some, mainly lobbyists, would make out. Lots and lots of things still to sort out: storage, cheaper marginal production but hopefully reduced interconnection charges in areas with greater renewable capacity will start improving things.

> Britain has performed far, far better ...

Britain has performed slightly better ...

And it's still only an estimate.

The country isn't too poor at all. It's just been pillaged thoroughly by the Tories and Labour refuse to do anything about it. Which is risible, as now we have a former Director of Public Prosecutions confronted with a gang of thieves and saying he can't have them arrested as they might abscond with the loot.

"Just hilarious. All that pomp about how much richer and better the country would be if we didn't have to ship untold billions to the EU. Turns out the country is too poor to stop schools from crumbling, keep roads in decent condition or meet the healthcare needs of the population."

You are aware that is an issue that has been ongoing for some time as a legacy issue while in the EU. Basically it has nothing to do with our membership at all.

"All that Brexit hubris finally being put right one painful step at a time."

Where? The 'expected' apocalypse didnt happen. There was a struggle to complain about it.

"Meanwhile, those responsible oscillate from saying 'things are great' to 't'wasnt us, it was covid'. As if the UK is the only country having to deal with a pandemic it hadn't planned for."

Sounds like those responsible might be right depending on what they are responding to.

No one predicted an apocalypse, just significant disadvantages as the two scientists were quoted to illustrate.

@Charlie Clark

"No one predicted an apocalypse, just significant disadvantages as the two scientists were quoted to illustrate."

End of western civilisation. The UK will be little England and irrelevant in the world. Voting leave will cause a recession (didnt)... moved to when we begin article 50 (didnt)... moved to nebulous some point in the future (didnt).

"the country is too poor to stop schools from crumbling..."

To be fair, those schools would still be crumbling if Brexit hadn't happened

As if the UK is the only country having to deal with a pandemic it hadn't planned for.

Indeed, and we're still roughly in the middle of the EU pack when it comes to the economy, so COVID hit all European countries in pretty much the same way, in the EU or not. Brexit hasn't made a significant difference either way, so far.

Presumably they'll get round to this once they've agreed their domestic brewery festivity planning strategy.

Sure. Because it's always a good idea to go solo on a project that has already taken decades and multiple billions from an entire economical coalition.

Even better, go solo when actual advancements [1]are being made .

Brilliant timing !

Just like Brexit.

[1] https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/scientists-repeat-nuclear-fusion-breakthrough-in-a-step-toward-more-clean-energy-180982683/

You don't understand - they can use this money better!

They already have several excellent bids for domestic fusion services. They include:

Energy FusePro, an exciting new Baroness Mone venture.

Michael Green's Fuse-o-Rama (in association with Grant Schapps).

Stockheath & Fox Associates (totally not Grant Schapps in a badly fitting hat).

A non-dom tax-avoiding multimillionaire that Rishi Sunak has met several times at parties but doesn't like speaking to because he regards him as poor.

Group4. [Seriously? How are they still in business? -Ed]

Capita Fusion Services. [Oh, FFS. - Ed]

A bloke that Matt Hancock met in a pub once.

I think we can all agree that whoever is picked for this funding, it will be well spent and not at all a boondoggle of colossally corrupt proportions...

(Seriously though - Capita Fusion Services. If the idea of that doesn't scare you, you're a damned fool.)

There are multiple companies "going solo" on this. Do you believe there is only one possible way to achieve fusion?

> Do you believe there is only one possible way to achieve fusion?

No. In terms of technologically and economically viable methods, I believe there are none.

Or [1]as the EU put it :

The UK has decided not to pursue its association to Euratom and Fusion4Energy/ITER [the International Thermonuclear Experimental Reactor]. This decision is guided by the UK’s assessment that its industry’s long absence from Euratom and F4E/ITER programmes cannot be reversed.

Meaning... the UK's nuclear industry has fell behind so much it can't catch up? Or it just means that uk.gov doesn't want to spend any money, for a change?

[1] https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2023/sep/07/rishi-sunak-uk-europe-horizon-erasmus-conservatives-labour-uk-politics-latest?page=with:block-64f9d5518f089e7c823efd90#block-64f9d5518f089e7c823efd90

It is estimated that the UK will put €2.6 billion ... per year on average into the Horizon funding pot for its participation.

.

I think that means if we leave immediately we will have €50 million euros a week to put into the NHS.

I can only give one upvote, so have a beer for the second.

That bloody johnson idiot strikes again.

Should be locked up for wrecking the country.

I hope not a cent will go from EU taxpayers' pockets to UK.

It never has in the past, why start now?