You can't have "experts" telling you things, can you? We've all had enough of them.

@NXM

"You can't have "experts" telling you things, can you? We've all had enough of them."

Unfortunately morons insist we need to come to an agreement over Horizon while the EU refuses to.

It's the morons who insist that the UK can 'have its cake and eat it' who are the problems here.

The morons are the ones who refuse to accept that the EU are being totally stuffy and unreasonable.

How about we suggest to Mr Putin that he give up on Ukraine but can have France and Germany. The UK would be no worse off.

@BebopWeBop

"It's the morons who insist that the UK can 'have its cake and eat it' who are the problems here."

I assume you mean the 'scientists' complaining we should have access to Horizon when its not in our power to deliver (the EU are intentionally holding out on this, not the UK).

FTFY - effectively the Politicians organized a vote and then had to sort out the Brexit agreement - but they didn't understand all of the consequences, fair enough because that was not anything that they had any experience in. If we replaced the Politicians with Scientists then after the original vote then the Scientists would have done a lot of research to work out all the potential consequences that we are now seeing these days - virtually none of which any moron said could happen.

I wonder if eventually Brexit might end up eliminating Politicians on all sides ... replacing them with Scientists might be an improvement.

Even now, they still can’t admit that this is all caused by Brexit.

Just like the chip fab drivel that they are droning on about.

And battery mega plants that go bust.

And...

Mine’s the one with Irish passport in the pocket.

Even now, they still can’t admit that this is all caused by Brexit.

That's a rather bizarre statement, since all sides are in complete agreement that this situation only exists because of Brexit, and the refusal of the EU to implement the withdrawal agreement it signed up to 18 months ago.

I think you'll find that the EU have implemented their side of the deal. The sticking point is Johnson's "over ready deal" and the Northern Ireland Protocol. Which the UK are now complaining about, even though it was entirely Johnson's idea.

I think you'll find that the EU have implemented their side of the deal.

No, it has not. The EU is still "finalizing the UK's participation". The ball is entirely in the EU court, they are dragging their heels until the UK agrees to do what the EU wants in a completely separate area.

Separate area? Such as signing and abiding by a Brexit agreement.

There is no separate area, the EU agreement is a package deal and you can't pick the parts you like and renegotiate the rest. The EU tried to make this clear from the very beginning, but British politicians were a bit preoccupied with internal politicking and never seemed to get the message.

The person who "negotiated it" never intended to honour it. He's never honoured any other agreement in his life, which is why I'm still amazed at the stupidity of his paramour in actually marrying him, after he divorced his then wife, who happened to be undergoing cancer treatment at the time.

What a gent.

He just makes a mess and then fucks off leaving it for others to clear up. There's no hope for those who can't even realise that they've been taken for a ride.

@Schultz

"There is no separate area, the EU agreement is a package deal and you can't pick the parts you like and renegotiate the rest. The EU tried to make this clear from the very beginning, but British politicians were a bit preoccupied with internal politicking and never seemed to get the message."

This being a fantastic reason for the UK to unilaterally rip up the agreement as it was not negotiated in good faith. The EU actively violated the negotiation rules which did not allow for holding up all negotiations while negotiating a part of it. The EU used NI intentionally and due to remainers negotiating on our side we got the NI protocol which the EU cant even stick to.

has failed to negotiate an ongoing association with the Horizon programme

is not an entirely accurate statement of the position. Continuing UK access to Horizon was an accepted part of the withdrawal agreement signed by UK and EU 18 months ago, and the UK has £2bn+ per year set aside for it. The problem is that the EU is refusing to respect the agreement until completely unrelated issues like the NI protocol are settled, essentially trying to blackmail the UK into accepting its terms. For now the UK is guaranteeing research grants that would be paid out of Horizon funds.

Neither UK scientists nor government want the UK to leave Horizon and look for other partners, and it's hard to believe that EU scientists would want that either, but unless EU politicians accept the agreement they signed and stop acting in bad faith there may not be any other option. No surprise that the government's trying to put a positive spin on it, of course, they won't want the EU to think that it can extort further changes to the NI protocol. That is a wholly separate issue, and should remain so.

The EU, and Northern Ireland, are pretty happy with the Northern Ireland Protocol. It's a good deal for both of them.

The UK Brexiteers, who came up with the protocol, are the ones who are now complaining.

(They're not "completely unrelated issues", they're both solidly linked to the UK leaving the EU and the Withdrawal Agreement.)

The EU, and Northern Ireland, are pretty happy with the Northern Ireland Protocol. It's a good deal for both of them.

Really? So why is the largest political group in NI refusing to allow an assembly to be formed due to it's objection to the NI protocol?

Are you talking about the largest political group that voted FOR the same protocol when it was voted onm in Parlament?

The political group that voted for it because they were promised, by a proven liar, that he was lying about the protocol?

You missed off that they also took the liar's bribe in return for their support.

No surprise that he shafted them.

I think you'll find they came second in the last election. They should have had another election by now, but our NI minister keeps kicking that can down the road (with dubious legality under the GFA). I can't imagine the DUP will do better than last time when the next election for the NI Assembly does eventually come along.

Except it is not the largest political group and definitelly not in majority ...

Don't let those pesky facts get in the way of our Glorious Brexit. What are you, some sort of traitor intent on doing our country down?

Don't you know we should not listen to anyone who knows what they are talking about. His Holy Goveness himself told us so.

We'll send John Redwood to personally take charge of your re-education shortly.

Funny that... The party with the most votes (Sinn Féin, *not* the DUP) is held hostage by the party who didn't get the most votes, but who has traditionally had the most (because Unionist).

Sinn Féin is just as keen to get things sorted, but the DUP are being twats by holding up the processes under the Good Friday Agreement (whilst claiming to have the GFA in mind). I hope the next election (as promised by the Tories) costs the DUP even more votes just to drive home the point that they are no longer the grand poobah in Norn Iron and that people are fed up with having their lives f***ed with just because a Unionist party didn't like the end result.

Yes there is "blackmail" but it's HMG who are guilty here. They negotiated in bad faith and almost immediately broke agreements or at least threatened to do so if they didn't get their way.

Also I would suggest you look at the Tory history on "Money set aside for..." and "Money spent on..." and you'll find while the Tories are big on promises they never ever carry them out.

Bingo! Absolutely.

And those promises they do make usually are just rehashes of what they've promised before under a different guise.

"Completely Unrelated" in this context means "part of the exact same withdrawal agreement", right? The one that the UK has already tried to break international law over because no amount of writhing, doublethink and lying will make Northern Ireland both fit entirely in the UK, without any borders, and also within the island of Ireland without any borders (as required by another, better drafted, and more important international treaty).

All this demonstrates is the staggering ignorance (of Irish history, basic economics, and several other matters) and fuzzy thinking displayed by brexiters.

Presuming your reference to "another, better drafted, and more important international treaty" refers to the Belfast Agreement (aka the Good Friday Agreement), would you be so kind as to quote the precise clause of that agreement that states explicitly that there may not be any borders within the island of Ireland?

It has been a while since I last read it through thoroughly, so I admit I may have forgotten that being in there, but I don't recall it.

I do recall that the agreement repeatedly makes reference to cross-border institutions etc - the term 'Cross-border' occurring repeatedly throughout the document. That rather suggests that the Good Friday Agreement explicitly requires a border within the island of Ireland (one does tend to need a border, if one wants to have a cross-border institution).

Sadly you will be downvoted because it's easier to believe that Horizon exists in a completely isolated bubble than accept it's being used as a political football.

As with all things EU and Brexit related, public statements are less about the reality of the ongoing negotiations and more about how the respective parties want the negotiations to be perceived. Both sides essentially want to say "our choice is the best for the public", when their choice inevitably has costs and consequences. The "toys out of the pram" announcements are often more negotiating tactics than deep political beliefs.

We should be clear that Horizon is part of the 'carrot and stick' of the membership programme. Unfortunately, your (and shortly, my) downvotes come from people who only see the carrot.

It is hard to negotiate when the negotiation partner time and time again demonstrates that even his signature is not worth the paper it is put upon.

Even the negotiator did an about face when it came to him campaigning for the French presidency even after being lauded for negotiating on the EU's behalf. The EU has given so much justification to rip up the agreement I am glad to see the UK finally giving up on them.

... of fucking gonks.

That is all.

( may apply to any past, present or future government types, anywhere )

is in the same place as the £350 million/week that is due to the NHS.

Do not forget that the money was promised to the farmers and the fishery industry as well.

Well, if that were true, there would not be a problem.

Assuming the data is correct in this link:

https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/projects/nhs-in-a-nutshell/nhs-budget

in 2015/16, UK NHS spending 141.1 Billion (in 2022 figures); in 2021/22, 199 Billion. the £350 million / week equates to just over £18 billion (in 2016 figures, but that will not be significant). The actual rise is just under £60 billion.

Therefore it is the case that the promise of an additional £350 million a week has been honoured and more than honoured.

(The figures I pulled from the site appear to be health and social care, not just health, but both needed the money; also noted that they appear to be figures just for England)

The thing is, that the NHS gets a year-on-year increase anyway, due to two factors: inflation, and changing demographics (whodathunkit, older people need more medical care).

The loss of income to the UK from leaving the EU far outweighs the "£350M a week" figure, by about £90M apparently.

Is this money actually going to the NHS, or money that the tories make the NHS hand over to private healthcare providers that just happened to donate to the tory party up front?

https://www.nhsforsale.info/private-providers/nhs-spend-on-private-companies-up-27-per-cent-in-a-year/

Looks like you triggered the resident far-right trolls.

Dear E. Muskrat,

Was that comment directed at me?

If so, please explain why presenting factual data (or at least apparently factual data ) that disproves a statement made by another forum member constitutes being a 'far-right troll'?

If you wish to dispute the figures I referred to in relation to the NHS funding, please act like a civilised and intelligent human being and present your facts (or what you believe to be facts) that would undermine the technical point of my argument.

The fact that you have resorted to name calling rather indicates that any troll-ish behaviour here is on your part.

I look forward to seeing you in-depth assessment of NHS funding since 2016, to prove that the original post was correct and that the figures I presented were incorrect.

One suspects there are a number of new commenting memberships to El Reg. It would be interesting to see the stats. Can we be enlightened Vulture?

If you click on the forum member name, it shows the date their account was created

I am afraid you will find that codejunky, ellied jeel and phil osophical have been around for a while :)

@LogicGate

"I am afraid you will find that codejunky, ellied jeel and phil osophical have been around for a while :)"

I do wonder how many Guardian leaning accounts have been created in recent years though.

I suspect your real worry should be how many accounts have started leaning towards Guardian the last couple of years.. ..and why?

Could be that since it's now 13 years since Labour lost power, there are an increasing number of techies who are to young to remember that the opposition are just as bad as the current lot in power.

As the old song goes: "It doesn't matter who you vote for, the Government always gets in"

If anything these comment forums are riddled with lefty trolls.

But, then again, Dr Alice Roberts also said that: "Thisands of yars ago ancient Britons all lived in rind hyses (houses made entirely of rind)".

One can only assume therefore that she was being prescient in actually predicting our post-Brexit impoverishment. So maybe UK science does work proper like after all.

"Thisands of yars"? I never knew Dr Roberts was a Kiwi.

"the ruling Conservative party faces re-election at the end of next year."

I think you will find, actually strongly HOPE that we in the UK will find, that the ruling Conservative party faces a General Election by the end of 2023. The prospect of this lot being re-elected ...

(Sorry, I just needed a little something distilled to drink* and a lie down.)

Anyway, the prospect of this lot being re-elected, does not bear thinking about.

AND B R E A T H E

*Not water, a beautiful yellowy-brown something from those nice Scottish people on an island somewhere.

*Not water, a beautiful yellowy-brown something..."

Untreated sewage?

You mean River Water?

"The prospect of this lot being re-elected ..."

Honestly, the prospect of ANY of them being elected scares the shit out of me, as they will all fuck it up in new and different ways.