Google's Go may add telemetry that's on by default
- Reference: 1676057408
- News link: https://www.theregister.co.uk/2023/02/10/googles_go_programming_language_telemetry_debate/
- Source link:
However many in the Go community object because the plan calls for telemetry by default.
These alarmed developers would prefer an opt-in rather than an opt-out regime, a position the Go team rejects because it would ensure low adoption and would reduce the amount of telemetry data received to the point it would be of little value.
[1]
Cox's [2]proposal summarized lengthier documentation in [3]three [4]blog [5]posts .
[6]
[7]
Telemetry, as Cox describes it, involves software sending data from Go software to a server to provide information about which functions are being used and how the software is performing. He argues it is beneficial for open source projects to have that information to guide development.
"I believe that open-source software projects need to explore new telemetry designs that help developers get the information they need to work efficiently and effectively, without collecting invasive traces of detailed user activity," he wrote.
[8]
And the absence of telemetry data, he contends, makes it more difficult for project maintainers to understand what's important, what's working, and to prioritize changes, thereby making maintainer burnout more likely.
[9]Google agrees to $400m settlement in privacy lawsuit
[10]The first step to data privacy is admitting you have a problem, Google
[11]Android, iOS beam telemetry to Google, Apple even when you tell them not to – study
[12]Mozilla ponders making telemetry opt-out, 'cos hardly anyone opted in
But such is Google's reputation these days that many considering the proposal have doubts, despite the fact that [13]the data collection contemplated involves measuring the usage of language features and language performance. The proposal isn't about the sort of sensitive personal data vacuumed up by Google's ad-focused groups.
Hang on – you're Google's mate, aren't you?
Even so, IT consultant Jacob Weisz makes it clear that Go cannot escape its association with Google, any more than Java can be separated from Oracle or Swift from Apple. He [14]wrote in a reply to the proposal on GitHub that he had resisted Go for years because of its association with Google and only recently started to work with it because friends have convinced him that it isn't that closely associated with the company.
"Now you guys want to introduce telemetry into your programming language?" Weisz said. "This is how you drive off any person who even considered giving your project a chance despite the warning signs. Please don't do this, and please issue a public apology for even proposing it. Please leave a blast radius around this idea wide enough that nobody even suggests trying to do this again."
He added: "Trust in Google's behavior is at an all time low, and moves like this are a choice to shove what's left of it off the edge of a cliff."
Toronto-based software developer Connie Lukawski [15]put it more succinctly: "No telemetry in my toolchains, hard pass."
[16]
That reaction is by no means universal – telemetry has [17]passionate defenders .
But it's useful...
Former Google cryptographer and current open source maintainer Filippo Valsorda, in [18]a post to Mastodon, expressed support for the Go proposal and disappointment in the tenor of the criticism.
"This is a large unconventional design, there are a lot of tradeoffs worth discussing and details to explore," he wrote. "When Russ showed it to me I made at least a dozen suggestions and many got implemented."
"Instead: all opt-out telemetry is unethical; Google is evil; this is not needed. No one even argued why publishing any of this data could be a problem."
Rejection of the suggested opt-out default is [19]common [20]among [21]those choosing to comment on the proposal. Weisz's comment had received 59 upvotes and 24 downvotes at the time this story was filed, which perhaps can be taken as a snapshot of the divide – if online votes count for anything.
Reached via email, Weisz told The Register that reactions to the telemetry proposal appear mostly to be negative.
"Many community members believe that telemetry should either be opt-in, a.k.a. voluntary, or not included at all," Weisz explained. "The Go team has not expressed any criteria by which they will decide whether or not to move forward with the proposal, leading several to wonder if the decision has already been made."
Weisz compared the Go proposal to Microsoft's decision to add telemetry to the .NET developer tools, which similarly transmitted data by default unless the developer opted out.
"The Go team has been described to me before as being backed or funded by Google, but not heavily directed by Google's corporate interests," said Weisz. "I think that's a common interpretation of where the Go team sits within Google. Many people view the Go team considering collecting data as a sign that the Go team is not necessarily more trustworthy than its parent company."
Google as a company has seen its reputation slip in recent years. In 2016, Google [22]ranked third in a Harris Poll report on the top 10 companies for corporate reputation, behind Amazon and Apple. In 2022, Google [23]ranked 31 .
But it may be simpler than brand association. Some people believe they have a right to privacy, to be left alone, and to demand that their rights are respected through opt-in consent.
As developer Louis Thibault [24]put it , "The Go dev team seems not to have internalized the principle of affirmative consent in matters of data collection."
Others, particularly in the ad industry, but in other endeavors as well, see opt-in as an existential threat. They believe that they have a right to gather data and that it's better to seek forgiveness via opt-out than to ask for permission unlikely to be given via opt-in.
[25]Surprise! China's top Android phones collect way more info
[26]Datadog allegedly asked developer to kill open source data export tool
[27]Arca Noae is modernizing OS/2 Warp for 21st century PCs
[28]Upgrading to Android 12.1 ... in Windows 11: Telemetry disabled by default
Reconciling these positions has never really worked, as can be seen in the way discussion moderators have [29]allegedly hidden posts critical of Google as being off-topic. Privacy extremists are just, well, extreme and should be ignored to the extent possible.
Supporters of the proposal want to discuss how telemetry should be done and detractors say the issue is whether telemetry should even be considered. Those are different discussions.
A developer account identified as tv42 makes it clear that mustering arguments about the kind of data collected miss the mark: "I fundamentally don't care how 'good' Go telemetrics would be, because I don't want the FOSS ecosystem as a whole to take any more steps down that slippery slope. There will not be a way back from this."
Software is so much easier when you can move fast and break things. ®
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[2] https://github.com/golang/go/discussions/58409
[3] https://research.swtch.com/telemetry-intro
[4] https://research.swtch.com/telemetry-design
[5] https://research.swtch.com/telemetry-uses
[6] https://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/jump?co=1&iu=/6978/reg_software/front&sz=300x50%7C300x100%7C300x250%7C300x251%7C300x252%7C300x600%7C300x601&tile=4&c=44Y@bMkn8krG99ITKTtMkkZwAAAEE&t=ct%3Dns%26unitnum%3D4%26raptor%3Dfalcon%26pos%3Dmid%26test%3D0
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[9] https://www.theregister.com/2022/11/15/google_391m_privacy_settlement/
[10] https://www.theregister.com/2022/03/28/google_data_privacy/
[11] https://www.theregister.com/2021/04/01/android_ios_location/
[12] https://www.theregister.com/2017/08/24/mozilla_considers_move_to_opt_out_telemetry_for_firefox/
[13] https://research.swtch.com/telemetry-uses
[14] https://github.com/golang/go/discussions/58409#discussioncomment-4908615
[15] https://github.com/golang/go/discussions/58409#discussioncomment-4908859
[16] https://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/jump?co=1&iu=/6978/reg_software/front&sz=300x50%7C300x100%7C300x250%7C300x251%7C300x252%7C300x600%7C300x601&tile=3&c=33Y@bMkn8krG99ITKTtMkkZwAAAEE&t=ct%3Dns%26unitnum%3D3%26raptor%3Deagle%26pos%3Dmid%26test%3D0
[17] https://github.com/golang/go/discussions/58409#discussioncomment-4909242
[18] https://abyssdomain.expert/@filippo/109835081213961088
[19] https://github.com/golang/go/discussions/58409#discussioncomment-4905912
[20] https://github.com/golang/go/discussions/58409#discussioncomment-4910761
[21] https://github.com/golang/go/discussions/58409#discussioncomment-4920364
[22] https://web.archive.org/web/20190407155825/https://theharrispoll.com/the-harris-pollr-today-released-its-17th-annual-reputation-quotientr-rqr-summary-report-revealing-corporate-reputation-ratings-for-the-100-most-visible-companies-in-the-u-s-as-perceived-by/
[23] https://theharrispoll.com/partners/media/axios-harrispoll-100/
[24] https://github.com/golang/go/discussions/58409#discussioncomment-4922520
[25] https://www.theregister.com/2023/02/07/chinese_android_phones_leak_pii/
[26] https://www.theregister.com/2023/02/02/datadog_opentelemetry_tool_dorman/
[27] https://www.theregister.com/2023/01/19/retro_tech_week_arca_os/
[28] https://www.theregister.com/2022/05/23/windows_subsystem_for_android/
[29] https://github.com/golang/go/discussions/58409#discussioncomment-4914358
[30] https://whitepapers.theregister.com/
Re: opt-out of a surprise.
Functions within the *compiler*. Functions within the *toolchain*, as mentioned. Compiler data collection is going to read your code just as shallowly as you read the article.
Classic techbro
A culture which is so resistant understanding another persons perspective or agency that the idea of consent becomes and alien concept.
I wonder if they would get invited to more parties if they stopped using that line of logic. "We can't give people the option to choose because everyone hates the idea and no one will let us if we ask"
Confused.
So the argument for this boils down to
“developers have been crying out for the ability to see what functions in their code are being used, and it’ll be really useful for them…
…but if we make this telemetry functionality ‘opt-in’, very few developers will enable it.”
Hmmmmm.
Re: Confused.
So you want to improve your software. You don't have a marketing/testing group dedicated to getting users into a lab and observing how your software is actually used. In fact you don't even have a dedicated group collating problem reports to divine problem areas that need attention. All you have is people loudly griping at you demanding effort in directions that will directly benefit only 'some' users. Who can know if fixing XYZ before SRQ will best benefit users, and without breaking some feature you didn't know was still in use?
Now if adding a useful tool - telemetry - takes a non-trivial amount of work - very likely - then doing so without any assurance of return actually damages the project by using resources for naught. So the opt-in / opt-out decision is simply how to get a benefit from the new feature, or else just not do the feature.
Though perhaps without the telemetry, the slow drip-drip of confusion and inefficiency will cause those resources to rust away anyway?
It seems that, yes, the GO language users will get to pick how easily the language developers will be supporting them. Wonder how the GO language developers will like being appreciated so nicely.
Go... Get the hell outa here
if you make it always on or even worse unable to be stopped or blocked.
I would not put it beyond Google to make Go apps talk to 'Big Brother' and if it can't acks from the mothership the app stops working.
The vast majority of us hate the telemetry that MS has put into Windows. We have been very vocal about it. Surely Google has seen the resistance? Nah. Google is Big Brother and what Big Brother says goes. You will obey...
I'll stick with developing in C and where a GUI is needed, I'll use Lazarus thank you very much.
Re: Go... Get the hell outa here
Amazingly enough, if a GUI is needed, I still find wxDevC++ pretty useful - and quite fast, despite the bugs.
"These alarmed developers would prefer an opt-in rather than an opt-out regime, a position the Go team rejects because it would ensure low adoption and would reduce the amount of telemetry data received to the point it would be of little value TO GOOGLE."
This is either transparently dishonest, or incredibly stupid, or a bit of both.
Either option satisfies developers who want the telemetry data more than they want privacy, and that's between them and their userbase.
Only opt-out satisfies Google, however, because they've built a global empire on the concept of monetizing and managing ignorance.
Pretending that this choice is for the benefit of users and developers is absurd.
Definitely on-brand though. Points for consistency.
" because it would ensure low adoption and would reduce the amount of telemetry data received to the point it would be of little value "
Gee, it's almost as if people are trying to tell them something.
"We don't trust you. We don't like you. You can't have any new tools but must serve us better." ?
Hmm, those users sound like management to me.
well from a financial / audit point of view
having done some big 4 work,
Many people view the Go team considering collecting data as a sign that the Go team is not necessarily more trustworthy than its parent company
Fiduciary dependency i.e. getting your salary from the larger company does in fact yes make you their "bitch". thus given the volume of money they have, means that by choosing to increase or decrease the flow thereof they do in fact cause a situation of "not more trustworthy than the party you get the money from". Please do change your auditors mind that giving someone more money gives them more freedom and makes them more trustworthy. Call me when done. Also hold your breath until this becomes == true.
categorical imperative
Telemetry is such a good idea, all software toolchains should do it. Oh wait...
What "right" is that?
Others, particularly in the ad industry, but in other endeavors as well, see opt-in as an existential threat. They believe that they have a right to gather data and that it's better to seek forgiveness via opt-out than to ask for permission unlikely to be given via opt-in.
Well, yeaaaahh! Of course those fuckheads would think that. But perhaps I missed where such a right was conferred upon ad-slingers (or for that matter, anyone ) in the first place.
Anyone? Buehler?
"What, allow you mopes to slurp any of my data, and sell it indiscriminately to all and sundry? Fuck yeah! Where do I sign?" said nobody to anyone ever....
opt-out of a surprise.
So a list detailing the functions a program has that can be crossed checked with known vulnerabilities? I guess Google has to worsen security to justify their purchase of Mandiant.