Investment from this govt?

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

When in a station, If they can switch to battery power (and possibly recharge at the same time) then this needs bringing over here now. The rumblings from the locos in my local station are a major noise nuisance, and caused a newly built multi-million-pound servicing depot to be effectively abandoned.

Electrified lines are the way to go. But, as we know, overhead electrification can cost both arms and three legs on a legacy system with low tunnels and bridges. That takes nearly all the budget and causes chaos so it doesn't get done.

Hybrid diesel or batteries is a solution, but is it the best solution for filling in the awkward bits? Southern who had the most dense and complex network did the whole lot with a third rail. Doesn't need bridges or tunnels being modified/replaced. It has its disadvantages. Speed and power is more limited so you don't want to major on it these days.

However is hybrid overhead/third rail is a better all electric lower cost solution? No carting heavy diesel motors around. It isn't as though it's never been tried. HS1 (Eurostar) operated that way for many years until they built the final section into St Pancras. Changeover was imperceptible to passengers who might only note the train slowing from 160 to 60 mph ahead of when the catenery ran out and they switched to Southern's old tracks into Waterloo.

Safety has been raised before but it's less of a hazard than level crossings as most humans have worked out they are best not stepped on - though we do have three legged foxes around here. Trains can easily coast through the unelectrified 100 yard or so sections for crossings and other hazards.

Thameslink still use the dual electric system. Third rail in from my station in Kent and then it switches over to overhead when it gets into City Thameslink.

The Southern East Croydon to Milton Keynes service uses both too I think. And London Overground has a mixed three rail/catenery network with trains that can use both (though none do a rolling switchover to my knowledge).

Overground trains do a rolling switchover between Shepherd's Bush and Willesden Junction, though not in the opposite direction. Southern trains don't do a rolling switchover in either direction at that point.

Meseryrail's new trains will be able to switch from third rail (as one of the only networks to still use one), battery (about 20 mile range) and a pantograph.

Network Rail will not allow any new third rail lines so this is why they've done this.

They will be making the switch while on the line. For example a potential Liverpool to Preston line. They'll run on the third rail all the way to Ormskirk, before switching to battery to get to the Penwortham triangle where they can extend the pantograph, using them to power all the way into Preston while also charging the battery. Before doing the opposite on the way back out.

Northern Rail should be running to the bank to buy these hybrid trains.

With all of the recent(ish) electrification projects in Scotland, England, and even finally venturing into Wales, Network Rail has learned quite a lot about how to put in place elegant engineering bodges to work around the issues of bridges and tunnels: short neutral sections under some bridges, reduced clearances around the wires to what was previously thought necessary, track lowering, fixed-position overhead rail (instead of wire) in more confined tunnel roof spaces, etc. This all comes in useful in helping to make future electrification schemes easier to implement, with less reconstruction necessary.

Third rail is only suitable for medium speed operations: it's DC passing through a big chunk of metal, and my understanding is that it basically isn't really viable for use above 160 km/h (100 mi/h). The potential risks to trackside staff and passengers (in case of having to disembark in an emergency) mean that, in the UK, it's not permitted any more, except as extensions to existing schemes.

They'll charge between stations, and by using regen braking to slow into the station.

I hope I am not alone in liking the sound of a 12CSVT late at night.

I used to hear the freights and found it a comforting noise.

British diesel locos all had their unique sounds. The regular beat of the 12CSVT could be heard for miles. The type 2 and 3 sulzers sounded good under load.

The US locos all sound very similar as they are pretty much all 2 stroke and just buzz. Years ago when travelling in the southwest USA we stopped by a switching yard and the engineer invited me and my dad into the cab while he did some shunting. Absolutely epic thing when you are a little kid!

I'd say not leaving the trains parked with their engines idling in stations would go some way to helping emissions and they health of all that use them, the number of times I've been to British train stations and seen this it's unnecessary

It is partly to reduce the number of heat/cool cycles on the engine.

Ah the memories of childhood watching the class 47s, 33s, 37s, HSTs and thumpers clagging their way out of the local station. I think the brits perfected the art of turning large quantities of fuel into noise and amorphous elemental carbon whilst turning as little as possible into tractive effort.

The yanks needed tunnels to do the same:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXpTRpn_fuQ

Well on the subject of engines turning fuel into pointless heat and noise, then the yanks are peerless, their cars do a fantastic job of getting as little power out of a massive engine as possible.

Think you'll find the engines run when stationary to provide power to lights, heating, cooking, doors etc.

Hybrid works - e.g. GWR from London to Cardiff is overhead and Cardiff to Swansea is Diesel, but mostly to save a bit of cash (or ignoring the Welsh again) on not doing a proper job and electrifying it all.

Mixed 3rd and Overhead also happens in London - Class 710 - don't think switch over happens while moving though.

Long term electric makes more sense - Hydrogen I think is a currently non CO2 friendly fudge to save wiring everything up...

> "Neither Hitachi nor Trenitalia has offered an explanation as to why they decided to call it the Blues train"

Trenitalia uses to name its regional train models after musical genres: in my corner of the woods I've spotted the Rock, Pop, Jazz and Minuetto ones.

As for why they've chosen "Blues" for this particular one your guess is as good as mine, although I suspect that it may reflect the feelings of the usual suppliers about losing an order of this size...

Also a reference to one of the most luxurious trains in the world. “The Blue Train”.

I’m guessing.

They have Frecciarossa (red arrow) and Frecciablanca (white arrow) trains.

If they wanted to complete the colours of the Italian flag, then surely they would have gone for Frecciaverde?

Quite where all the hydrogen is going to come from is another question. In principle, the universe's most abundant element can be electrolyzed from water using renewable energy. In practice, the vast majority of industrial hydrogen comes from natural gas [PDF] through a process which can be doubly polluting with greenhouse gasses.

This needs to be made more well known.

Hydrocarbons are a great store of H making it safe and easy to transport and use.

H on its own is difficult to store, combusts readily and needs special precautions to use it safely.

1 major accident and it will set the H sector back.

There is a reason H isn’t used more widely.

Also energy density of H is terrible compared to when it’s compounded with C.

Liberating H from CH4 is done industrially but is not green. It can be done by Methane pyrolysis which is touted as green but still requires energy and CH4 from somewhere -neither likely green, also in an energy cycle you’d be more energy efficient to just use the CH4 to generate electricity.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/cite.202000029

Compounding hydrogen with nitrogen makes for a pretty good fuel. Its just hard to handle :)

Yep, Hydrogen is really tricky stuff to handle even for the "experts". Just ask NASA....cough....SLS....

If you want serious, long-term expertise in handling enormous quantities of Hydrogen, look no further than Luftschiffbau Zeppelin GmbH.

It didn't end well for them either...

Japanese manufacturer Hitachi Rail and Italy's Trenitalia have unveiled a triple hybrid locomotive that they claim halves carbon emission compared with the trains they replace.

The "Blues train" is suitable to carry passengers throughout the European network and is powered by a combination of batteries, electric cable, and diesel engines.

OK, snarky comments...

Hybrid trains have been around for ages, diesel/electric and electric/electric. If it uses three sources of power, then it's a double hybrid, not a triple. Also, if one of those is electric cable, they're going to need a lot of extension reels.

Though seriously this (switching to battery within locality of stations and urban areas) is long overdue, and I've often wondered why it isn't already happening. Though it's not a surprise given the quality of the UK's rolling stock and infrastructure compared with elsewhere in western Europe I've experienced.

p.s. I miss the sound of the Paxman Valentas spooling up from cold and whistling by, when I were a lad.

They usually hang the reel of cable from poles above the track. This is nothing new.

But it's not.

I'm still unconvinced that CO2 pollution is worse than the poisoned landscapes resulting from mining all the minerals necessary to produce the vast quantity of batteries that our "green" economy now demands. And don't even bother mentioning recycling. It's a non-starter.

Agreed. Lithium ion batteries are nice in small scale (phones, laptops etc) but the qty of material needed to cover all the proposed EVs and grid storage required to 'green the grid' is horrific. No doubt mostly sourced from China and other countries with lax or zero environmental and worker protection.

Trains could work with alternative technologies such as redux flow or sodium ion as the energy density issue is less of a problem.

A few

Very efficient Diesels, 100 built last BR Diesel locos, then all the US built inefficient but cheap stuff.

The Hayabusa project.

The constant giving up on electrification.

I bet there will still be 1950s locos running in 2030. Most likely a large V12.