Wasn't this all part of the 'ready-made' deal with the EU' that Boris the 'Brave' bragged about?

Many of us predicted that the laws of unintended consequences would hit us hard w.r.t BREXIT but were shouted down...

The brain drain will be next, as will lots of funding for research at top UK Universities.

But...but... surely now that the riches are flowing into an independent Britain, it can afford to pay for it's own research without needing EU funding......

....right????

EU funding: we were a net contributor to the EU. Any "EU funding" that came to the UK was mostly British money put through the EU organ grinder and bureaucracy.

Oh, right. So you can now spend all that money on your own scientific programs and the NHS. That's great news! Congrats on that one. So stop complaining and get to that!

Funny how it was only when we left, despite being a net contributor, that taxes went up to their highest ever proportion of GDP.

@Warm Braw

"Funny how it was only when we left, despite being a net contributor, that taxes went up to their highest ever proportion of GDP."

Almost as if there was a massive blow out of spending when the gov put a large chunk of the economy on hold while panicking over a virus. And the rise in the so called 'divorce bill' where the UK now must pay more for the EU pensions because we were in it.

Except the scheduled NI increase was supposed to pay for the Social Care policy that has been promised for years and never delivered and the rise in Corporation Tax doesn't take effect until the next financial year. The non-indexation of the personal allowance will soak up even more of GDP than planned as inflation has soared way beyond expected levels.

Most of the coronavirus spending has come from borrowing so far, not taxation. Though it will no doubt feed through into taxation shortly.

The real issue, unfortunately, is the sluggish recovery of GDP - even the Tory leadership candidates would agree with that. And it's about to slump further.

@Warm Braw

"Except the scheduled NI increase was supposed to pay for the Social Care policy that has been promised for years and never delivered"

I can believe that. I am not a fan of rising tax either but it does feed into your comment-

"Most of the coronavirus spending has come from borrowing so far, not taxation. Though it will no doubt feed through into taxation shortly."

"The real issue, unfortunately, is the sluggish recovery of GDP - even the Tory leadership candidates would agree with that. And it's about to slump further."

Probably. Shutting down the economy (and the world doing similar) while printing money and spending like a drunken sailor will do that. We couldnt even manage to get austerity after the last recession.

OK - most of the UK inflation is not due to:

- Printing money (though we have done quite a bit of of that, you will note we've stopped)

- High Taxes (that's deflationary)

- People working from home (please play nicely with the other public servants, Jacob)

- The economy restarting after COVID (although I'll concede that probably has made money chase scarce goods)

It is largely due to:

1) The absolutely effing enormous jump in the cost of fossil fuels after a bare-chested, oil-soaked dictator decided to do a reverse-Barbarossa. This is the big one.

2) The slide of the pound in relation to most currencies that matter, which started, curiously enough just as soon as the money-markets realised just shy of 50% of the UK electorate had lost their marbles

That claim is in direct contradiction to the fact that the UK is seeking a funding program in association with the EU. If they got less than they put in as part of the EU, then this whole thing would be moot.

It is not a claim. It is a fact that the UK was a net contributor to the EU.

You are making the mistake that many do when they look at anything to do with the EU. You look at one aspect only, and not the whole. No doubt this will be part of some bargaining re fisheries, and so on.

@VoiceOfTruth

"No doubt this will be part of some bargaining re fisheries, and so on."

I assume a continuation of their efforts to anex NI. But could just be a continual branch to hit us with as long as we entertain hopes of continuing research with them.

The EU would shoot their own foot off as long as the blood ruined our shoes

@VoiceOfTruth "It is not a claim. It is a fact that the UK was a net contributor to the EU."

Not just a net contributor the second largest net contributor in 2015 even though the UK was getting a discount on it's contributions.

Germany 14.3 billion euros

UK 11.5 billion euros

Without the discount the UK would have had to pay another 6 billion euros which would have made it the largest net contributor at 17.5 billion euros.

That was just a result of poor negotiations and poor economics: the "rebate" quickly became a slogan only as the budget was adjusted. It was like some of the offers you see in shops which cover a real price rise.

Anyway, a better basis for comparison would be per capita where I think The Netherlands makes the largest contribution on this basis. But seeing as it's also one of the largest beneficiaries from the single market, outrage is limited.

EU budget negotiations are messy but they really are childs play when it comes to the pork barrel approach of the US, which the UK has also started to adopt under BoJo.

.. Either you have a net WIN - or will have to consider HOW the EU bureaucracy beats HMG for efficiency

Ten of the richest EU countries were net contributors to the EU budget.

Should I now assume you feel the EU should have payed you for the great honour of having you as a member.

It might surprise you but most countries tend to help porer parts of the county to catch up by taking money from the ritcher parts of the country.

But that of course is not British at all as Ritchy has pointed out.

@Lars.

Help the poorer parts? You mean, like the "help" the E.U. dished out to Greece?

So they "helped" Greece by lending around 270 billion.(IIRC)? How was that supposed to help a country that cannot pay back what it already owed?

Oh and please remind me of the conditions attached to the loan? And whilst I am asking, remind me of which countries banks were happy to lend them the original loans.

And as for not being British, you are right.

The British way is to give (mainly English) taxpayers money to the other countries in the uk.Not Loans. Maybe the British could teach the E.U. something do you think?

And just for the hell of it, it is paid not payed. Naturally, I won't notice errors in my post until after editing time is past. It was ever thus.

"Oh and please remind me of the conditions attached to the loan?"

The conditions came later, in the form of enforced austerity. This was necessary because a default would have devalued the Euro so badly that it would have doomed the entire Eurozone. Even the spectre of a default sent the value plummeting and it took years to recover. Basically, Greece failed to spread the pain to the point that the Troika had to step in and make it happen all at once.

"And whilst I am asking, remind me of which countries banks were happy to lend them the original loans"

Germany returned the direct profits from the interest payments on those loans to Greece. They did make (and keep) a few billion but this wasn't direct profits, rather it was by wisely investing the repayments.

-> Ten of the richest EU countries were net contributors to the EU budget.

So we agreed that the UK was a net contributor.

-> It might surprise you but most countries tend to help porer parts of the county to catch up by taking money from the ritcher parts of the country.

This is about countries, not counties. As others have pointed out we saw how Germany "helped" Greece. We saw EU solidarity when it came to swiping covid vaccines. What short memories some people have.

I can report from first hand experience living in an EU country during the pandemic, we did get vaccine supplies from other EU countries and helped others in our turn. We also had other countries take our ICU patients when we ran out of places.

So, of course the EU isn't perfect and there are often squabbles but there are also often demonstrations of unity.

"We saw EU solidarity when it came to swiping covid vaccines"

They weren't 'swiped', they were given to those who needed them the most and at a great price due to collective bargaining. The UK paid far more and only got a few extra months quicker delivery.

But you have to admit they were a pretty important few months considering the circumstances.

Paying a bit over the odds to get life saving treatment does not sound particularly wasteful - unlike our disgraceful PPE contracts, T&T that did neither well and many other pork for 'friends of the Tories' projects.

But you have to admit they were a pretty important few months considering the circumstances.

Not really, if you look at outcomes. IIRC it was at most six weeks and UK mortality did decline faster in early 2021 but from a higher level. It was lower than many EU countries for about six months but has been consistently higher since summer 2021.

Since then, of course, we've seen the limits of the efficacy of the vaccines, especially in the older population, which is why most countries are reverting to established endemic procedures.

I believe the reference was to the EU demanding the UK hand over supplies of Vaccine because the EU had forgotten to confirm their order so their order was further down the list, well behind the UK's order.

There was quite a mess early on with supply/demand of medical equipment and vaccines: It settled down but for a few months there was a lot of bad behaviour from within the EU. That's not to say the UK would have been any different save we were at the end of the chain so there was no one else to steal from.

Oh, and as for the 'great price': AZ was supplying the vaccine AT COST. Zero profit. So no, the EU couldn't get a 'better' deal than the UK. As for Pfizer: They were making quite the profit either way.

The 'Net contributor' point is an economically illiterate one. EU membership is not some money carrousel, that wouldn't even make sense, it's about return on investment. You can see that in action in the official government figures about cost per capita. The cost of EU membership was £137 per capita per year, the cost of non-membership is £4200 per capita per year. Why do you think HMG is suddenly so short of cash? We suddenly had to create over 30 agencies and bodies to do the work that we previously outsourced to a communal level with 27 other countries with all the benefits of economies of scale. If EU membership was a money carrousel then it wouldn't have worked that way.

Let's bring it down to the micro level. I was a net contributor to my university. I have paid them far more than they have ever paid me. Yet, the return on investment has been amazing and I am glad that I spent the money years ago, despite them never paying me.

Debate whatever you want but I recommend staying away from the 'Net contributor' point because you will be schooled by anyone who understands this matter.

Well, them politicians enjoy their money - regardless whether they have any success in turning the UK into the dream country they were promising.

The scientists, especially the younger scientists who are our hope for the future, I met lots of bright lads and lasses in my time, are out of funds, out of jobs (and will thus quit science). This hits all the wrong people, even if I think that the whole Brexit thing was a stupid idea (and that the UK are doing their best not to maintain the peace in NI, and that they are in fact in breach of contract - but let's not argue about that).

Probably the younger now ex-scientists will find good jobs in investment banking, insureances or whatever (the bright ones quite often do), what a loss for the scientific community (and the UK).

"and will thus quit science"

Or the country.

This has been going on since the '60s, sadly.

What would help now is an end to the vexatious shouting war with the EU by the Conservative party and a new, proper free trade agreement with the European Union that would significantly reduce tariffs, duties and bureaucracy that would then effectively make the Northern Ireland Protocol irrelevant.

It would also generate goodwill and would pretty much guarantee UK membership of all these cooperative scientific and technical schemes. That would be a win-win for everyone.

.... does the UK government not understand?

Way to later for buyer's remorse. Time to look forwards not to the past. The UK should create their own multilateral science funding programme.

Maybe with new trading partners. India would make a good lead partner.

75 years after partition and independence the UK can crawl back on bended knee and grovel for a trade and science funding deal.

-> the island nation

Which island would that be? The Isle of White or the Isle of Man?

-> foreign secretary Liz Truss

Not just a bottom drawer politician, she's not even in the cupboard. The idea of Liz Truss being able to negotiate anything is laughable. She is another of the PPE Oxford graduates who can't do anything. PPE or sometimes PPE+Law is a useless degree for useless people. Most of those with PPE degrees go into politics or the civil service - there is no use for them elsewhere. They are the revolving door people.

"-> the island nation

Which island would that be? The Isle of White or the Isle of Man?"

Adjectives are always singular. "island nation" - a nation made up of island(s).

a forest nation

a mountain nation

a canal city

a skyscraper city

some nine-YEAR-old children

some twenty-POUND potatoes

some ten-POLE tudors

Can you point to me which part of Northern Island is surrounded by water thus making it an island?

I'm sure that there are a few islands in the many Lochs in the province. Does this count?

... ?? - the bit with Auckland & Wellington on it?? -though I fail to see how this affects EU-Britain relations??

OK... well, technically you are right. The UK has Gibraltar, which in fact is on the mainland. Most of the UK is on islands, don't you think?

"The Isle of White"

The UK xenophobes dreamt of an Isle of White. But with immigration from outside the EU at an all time high their dreams have been smashed. All that is left is salty Gammon tears.

"The idea of Liz Truss being able to negotiate anything is laughable."

WHile I agree with your assessment of her, unfortunately it's not laughable. She's one of two candidates to be the PM. The other is married to someone with a major interest in the Indian outsourcing IT industry. I don't consider either a good outlook.

Was it Mark Twain who said that a German joke is no laughing matter. Liz Truss is our German joke. She is even less of a joke than Nick "Nobody" Clegg.

You cannot scrap parts of the agreement and then weep about some other part of it not progressing.

That would very much sound like the cherry picking Britain was warned abuot.

As a trade expert pointed out recently, the dispute resolution procedures are places you really don't want to go because their use implies the agreement has already fundamentally broken down. You might win or lose the specific point being argued but the likely result is that there is no longer any common shared interest in the agreement's continued operation.

If the UK really doesn't want to be party to the Withdrawal Agreement, there are provisions to terminate it. Up to now, the government has run from that prospect, whatever may be said in public. It's possible that the next PM might actually find it a useful temporary distraction from the growing financial chaos.

However, it's not going to get renegotiated - no EU leader is interested and the UK has no clout to force their hand.

We agreed to leave the EU, that means leaving the EU. Where's the disagreement?

Ukraine, Armenia, Israel, Georgia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Kosovo, Montenegro, North Macedonia, and Serbia are all associate members of Horizon Europe, and our deal with the EU on leaving provided us with the same. The EU are backsliding to punish us for leaving.

Wah wah wah. Nasty EU punishing us! Nothing to do with a band of Z-List UK politicians, shilling a vapid Little Englander pipe dream and then running away when Brexit is revealed as a scam.

Did all these countries unilaterally change the term of an agreement they had with the EU? I don't think so.

As far as I know, their words value isn't zero.

No one is punishing the UK and that is a complete fiction. It was Boris Johnson who chose to take the confrontational route and to inflict a hard Brexit and trade barriers on British businesses.

What is now required is a more rational and pragmatic approach to the European Union just like the Swiss and Norwegian governments do.

We did leave the EU, of course - but in the Trade and Cooperation Agreement it was agreed that the UK would be (along with a dozen and a half other non-member states) a participant of the Horizon programme. Not being a member state doesn't have to prevent us remaining friends and collaborators.

Unfortunately, having decided that delaying ratification is a good bargaining chip against unrelated matters; the Commission are delaying ratification for political reasons. This is much to the chagrin of many EU academics and researchers - https://www.euractiv.com/section/uk-europe/news/eu-must-immediately-accept-uk-into-horizon-europe-say-blocs-research-leaders/

The EU only broke their agreements after the UK did so first. Yes, they're only tangentially related but it's retribution, not a first strike. Not doing so would make the EU look weak.

"The EU only broke their agreements after the UK did so first."

Eh how? The EU even broke their own rules in negotiating brexit so thats a tough one to beat.

@Old Tom,

What has (along with a dozen and a half other non-member states) to do with anything related to Britain and Brexit.

Could it be that you are looking for support from other non-member states who have no problems with their relation to the EU.

Will Truss now travel to Bosnia-Hertsegovina to ask for help.