Awkward. At Chrome summit, developer asks: Why should anyone trust Google?
- Reference: 1636374729
- News link: https://www.theregister.co.uk/2021/11/08/why_should_anyone_trust_google/
- Source link:
"It's difficult for developers to meet growing expectations for privacy," said Barb Smith, global lead for Chrome and web platform partnerships, "when so many capabilities rely on third-party cookies and other cross-site tracking mechanisms that weren't designed with privacy in mind."
She went on to describe what she called "new privacy-preserving technologies," though top of the list of features was not privacy, but the ability to deliver "relevant ads and content."
[1]
Google argues that this is necessary to the business model of today's web, or what Smith called "a healthy, sustainable ecosystem." But privacy advocates are not convinced of this. Google's initiative is called Privacy Sandbox and includes technologies like [2]FLOC , [3]FLEDGE and [4]first-party sets , which have proved contentious.
[5]
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The Chrome Dev Summit, the keynote for which can be [7]viewed here , did feel at times like a PR exercise, with Google's senior director for product, Ben Galbraith, emphasising efforts towards cross-browser compatibility with [8]Compat 2021 , while Smith presented Privacy Sandbox as being for the benefit of developers rather than being for Google itself as it endeavours to protect the interests of its advertising business.
It was to the company's credit that it chose to take the question posed by Clearleft's Jeremy Keith, well known in the web standards community and who was briefly on the advisory committee for AMP (Accelerated Mobile Pages), before [9]resigning saying that "it has become clear to me that AMP remains a Google product." AMP has been [10]in the news of late with a lawsuit alleging Google deliberately throttled ad load times to promote it, and Keith asked: "Given the court proceedings against AMP, why should anyone trust FLOC or any other Google initiatives ostensibly focused on privacy?"
[11]
Google's Ben Galbraith fields an awkward question at the Chrome Dev Summit
"I can't comment on the AMP legal proceedings," said Galbraith. "FLOC is part of this broader initiative that we call the Privacy Sandbox… we're not asking for blind trust, instead we're working in the open which means we're sharing our ideas while they're in an early phase, we're sharing specific API proposals… running experiments in the open, and also working closely with industry regulators."
Galbraith added that Google will "continue to be very transparent both in terms of how the sandbox works and its resulting privacy properties, and we expect the effort will be judged on that basis."
[12]
Keith [13]reflected later that "the question got a response. I wouldn't say it got an answer... The fundamental issue is that you've got a single company that's the market leader in web search, the market leader in web advertising, and the market leader in web browsers. I honestly believe all three would function better – and more honestly – if they were separate entities."
Google has retreated behind the notion that its proposals are all subject to change [14]before ; the problem is that it does not always seems to take seriously the reservations expressed by others [15]such as the W3C Technical Architecture Group.
In a possibly unguarded moment, Google's Privacy Sandbox tech lead, Michael Kleber, previously [16]said : "The W3C doesn't get to be the boss of anyone, the decisions are going to be made at each of the browsers."
[17]
The AMA continued to be more compelling than the rest of the Dev Summit. What is the future of AMP? "We will continue to support developers that choose to use it," said Galbraith, who also noted that the company's Web Vitals initiative was about achieving "fast perceived page load times and stable page layout regardless of the web framework that they choose to use, and to align Google search with those guidelines."
We get the impression AMP is fading, whether because of legal issues or other considerations.
Why does Adobe's new [18]Photoshop for the web work only with Chrome and Edge, not Firefox? Ben Goodger, leading engineering, product and developer relations for Web Platform, said that it was "rare for APIs to emerge simultaneously in all browsers... With the Photoshop launch you can see what's possible when we build a more powerful web... We welcome cross-browser dialog on the shape of those APIs."
Is browser diversity important? Given the way that Google shows a recommendation to use Chrome every time its home page is visited by another browser one might think not, but software engineer Chris Harrelson said that "browser diversity is quite important because the web is an open, interoperable and universal platform, and browser diversity is part of what makes that stay the way it is."
[19]Oregon city courting Google data centers fights to keep their water usage secret
[20]There, that wasn't so hard, was it? South Korea makes Google allow rival payment systems in Play store apps
[21]JEDI mind tricks: Google said Pentagon contract didn't align with company values. Now it's chasing another defence gig
[22]Google's 'Be Evil' business transformation is complete: Time for the end game
Why does reviewing extensions for the Chrome Web App Store take so long? "Thank you for the feedback on that," said director of engineering Parisa Trabriz. "Even pretty complex extensions are reviewed and approved in a couple of business days." It is all about a high quality bar, she insisted.
"What is the future of the mobile web without real engine choice?" was another question, with Apple's iOS in mind, where Safari's WebKit is the only browser engine allowed. "How does the web stay competitive without Apple on board?"
Goodger made a nod to history in his reply. "You'll remember an era on the web where innovation slowed down and even stopped," he said. "What got us out of that funk was the ability for users to make choices about the experience that they want to have." Maybe it took a bit more than that, but Goodger expressed the belief that user choice would again win the day.
Harrelson lauded competition and said that "an important part of that is a diverse set of browsers across all platforms including iOS." These are intriguing non-answers: is Google planning a push to get Chrome onto iOS by appealing to the benefits of competition? Following that logic, [23]some will argue that Google's near-monopoly in search should also be addressed.
The dilemma is that Google engineers, funded ultimately by web advertising, have made a substantial contribution to the rapid and impressive evolution of the web platform and in making Chromium and the V8 JavaScript engine among the most critical and successful open-source projects. That said, a company with [24]91 per cent market share in search and browser on non-Apple platforms is not best placed to talk up the benefits of competition. ®
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[2] https://www.theregister.com/2021/07/08/google_floc_changes/
[3] https://www.theregister.com/2021/07/29/google_privacy_sandbox_fledge/
[4] https://www.theregister.com/2021/07/26/google_privacy_sandbox_roadmap/
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[7] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNecNY6vDek
[8] https://web.dev/compat2021/
[9] https://adactio.com/journal/18350
[10] https://www.theregister.com/2021/10/26/google_deliberately_throttled_ad_load/
[11] https://regmedia.co.uk/2021/11/04/chromedev.jpg
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[13] https://adactio.com/journal/18592
[14] https://www.theregister.com/2021/05/21/google_privacy_sandbox_ask_me_anything/
[15] https://www.theregister.com/2021/04/08/w3c_google_multple_domains/
[16] https://www.theregister.com/2021/07/26/google_privacy_sandbox_roadmap/
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[18] https://www.theregister.com/2021/10/26/abobe_creative_cloud_betas/
[19] https://www.theregister.com/2021/11/05/oregon_google_water/
[20] https://www.theregister.com/2021/11/04/google_thirdparty_payments_apps_south_korea/
[21] https://www.theregister.com/2021/11/04/google_joint_warfighting_cloud_capability/
[22] https://www.theregister.com/2021/11/01/google_opinion_column/
[23] https://www.theregister.com/2021/10/07/alternative_search_providers_protest/
[24] https://gs.statcounter.com/search-engine-market-share
[25] https://whitepapers.theregister.com/
Re: Trust Google?
Unfortunately most of us are forced to trust Google to some degree.. At least the other tech companies are avoidable, but Google is insidious. It has complete control over your Android device and all apps on it. Many of us are forced by our government to own a smart phone of some kind. Nobody can avoid needing to use email, web search, etc.
Facebook: Easy. Just don't use facebook.
Amazon: Don't use it.
Microsoft: Run Linux. Use GitLab. Suspend your LinkedIn when you're not actively looking for a job.
Apple: You joined the cult, you are a lost cause, serves you right.
Intel: Well, as long as the CIA or Mossad aren't after you, you probably have nothing to fear from them.
Google: Bend over. We're not evil, remember. Trust us, this won't hurt a bit.
But can anyone really get around having a Google account? Short of running your own mail server, they are a better option than using an ISP or Employer's email service. Even Google Search is becoming impossible to use without being logged in and tracked.. "Sorry we can't verify that you are over 18.." (even if you ARE logged in with an account that you've had for 20 years)
And of course, anyone stupid enough to use OnmiAuth puts Google in control of their secondary accounts too.
And even if you use none of that, you still get forcibly redirected to AMP.
Re: Trust Google?
I know someone will be along in a minute but...
...several in my family run Android phones and don't have a Google account. Ok, so the phones are still under Google's wing, but they work well enough. My own phone runs LineageOS without any GApps. I've never had a Google account.
Yes, I do run my own email server, but I also have email via a third party which is absolutely [1]not Google .
And, of course, I don't use Google search, [2]at least not directly .
M.
[1] http://www.orpheusinternet.co.uk/about/
[2] https://spreadprivacy.com/is-duckduckgo-a-good-search-engine/
Re: Trust Google?
But how often do you all bump into a web site that demands you enable a Google captcha before they will deal with you?
Do you all ensure that the even more ubiquitous google-analytics is disabled, even on sites which ought to know better (and I'm looking at you, Vulture Central)?
Re: Trust Google?
But how often do you all bump into a web site that demands you enable a Google captcha before they will deal with you?
Far too often. Sometimes even for read-only access! I really don't understand that.
Do you all ensure that the even more ubiquitous google-analytics is disabled
NoScript is your friend. (Or at least, it's mine.)
Re: Trust Google?
Yes, I also run /e/os although I do have a google account (which is not linked to my phone). However I suspect we are in a minority of less than 0.1% of Android users who are running OpenGApps.
It means that I also have to trust a 3rd party App store, which is not ideal but no worse than trusting Google. I wish that I could build apps from source on my Linux PC and remove all the shitty trackers from them, but I don't know how to do that and very few Android apps are open source.
Re: Trust Google?
> But can anyone really get around having a Google account?
Let me turn that question around: how can anyone really stand using any Google product once they know just how toxic and corrosive their business practices are?
I use the [1]KolabNow groupware, the [2]Qwant search engine and a [3]SailfishOS smartphone. I do watch YouTube, but would stop if it required me to sign into a Google account. If you don't exercise your right to choose you will end up losing it. Be the change you want to see. Support the alternatives.
[1] https://kolabnow.com/
[2] https://www.qwant.com/
[3] https://sailfishos.org/
Re: Trust Google?
Amazon the store: Don't use it.
AWS: well, odds are good that many of the entities who get your custom or with whom you interact have some services in AWS. Just refer to the list of things that go down when AWS loses a region.
Same thing with Microsoft and Azure, Google and Captchas
Technologies
The only technology I want in a Privacy Sandbox is FUCKOFF. No ads, no tracking. Simple enough for anybody to implement.
Re: Technologies
I'm ok with a limited amount of static(!) ads. A picture of a product here or there: sure, why not? Might be relevant (most likely not), or lead me to see something interesting (yeah... right) - not that "targeted" ads are any better. Meh.
As for anything "script" or "cookie" or whatever: I totally and completely agree to that single option above.
Re: Technologies
I'm ok with a limited amount of static(!) ads. A picture of a product here or there: sure, why not?
If it was the web site itself supplying the ad I'd probably agree with you, but most ads come from third party companies running on the thinnest of margins, so with zero budget or concern for security, and there's no way I (or the web site) can be sure it isn't malware targetting a new zero-day vulnerability that's being delivered.
Re: Technologies
Privacy is nothing to do with "no ads".
Re: Technologies
You are being tracked to get better targeted ads – they say. No ads, no need for tracking.
"the web is an open, interoperable and universal platform"
Effectively, not for a long time now.
By virtue of the scramble for search ranking, Gooooooooogle defines key attributes of most web sites, so homogenisation has set in. Constant site changes to maintain rankings makes bookmarks pretty much obsolete, so users treat Gooooooooooooogle search (biased as it is) as a dynamic index to web content. Web sites increasingly render only in certain browsers, notably Chrome with its propensity for tracking users, and sites that work today in a given browser may break tomorrow.
In some ways we're back to the days of the 'browser wars', but that was a more innocent time of vastly less privacy violation in proportion to the benefits of access.
$$$
Google is the new Micro$oft, money is all that matters. So in that way Google CAN be trusted - to shaft everyone and everything that comes between them and the mighty dollar.
$$$
Google is the new Micro$oft - money is all that matters. So in a way Google CAN be trusted - to shaft everyone and everything that comes between them and the mighty dollar.
"Google engineers, funded ultimately by web advertising, have made a substantial contribution to the rapid and impressive evolution of the web platform and in making Chromium and the V8 JavaScript engine among the most critical and successful open-source projects".
You're saying it like it's a good thing.
Exactly. Many of the ‘contributions’ should not be developed at all. And definitely not at Google. And become critical on top of it.
Trust Google?
Are they mad?
The moment you trust any big-tech company then you are a lost cause.
Google will sell your soul to the highest bidder time and time again. They are in a race with Fecalbook to the bottom in terms of benefits to humanity.