Why we abandoned open source: LiveCode CEO on retreat despite successful kickstarter
(2021/09/06)
- Reference: 1630949464
- News link: https://www.theregister.co.uk/2021/09/06/livecode_interview/
- Source link:
Interview An easy to use programming language that was made open source in 2014 after a successful crowdfunding campaign is going back to closed source after too many customers switched to using it for free.
LiveCode Community, open source under the GPLv3, was [1]archived on GitHub and future development will be closed source.
In the [2]official announcement , LiveCode CEO Kevin Miller says: "99 per cent of the work on LiveCode is done by our in-house team. With a large section of the LiveCode community using the free open source edition, the cost of maintaining this vs the reward for doing so is not a balanced equation."
I don't think you can say that after eight years we didn't give it our best shot. And that code is still out there if people want to use it
Subscriptions are per-platform and now start at £7.99+VAT per month for one platform, for applications that run only while the subscription is active, or £239+VAT per year for one platform with the ability to build standalone applications.
[3]
LiveCode CEO Kevin Mitchell breaks the news to open source users
"We've been taking a close look at the LiveCode business model," adds Miller. "We've been an open source platform for round about eight years … we've seen user base grow consistently during that period and some of you have even made contributions to the platform. However a lot of our user base has moved to using the open source edition… unfortunately that leaves us in a position where we don't have the level of resources that we need to take the platform forward."
Miller says that "if you are an open source user and you truly cannot afford the licence, please get in touch and we will sort you out."
[4]
LiveCode is a rapid application development environment originally inspired by HyperCard, a scripting environment for the Mac back in the eighties and nineties.
[5]
[6]
The development system was introduced in 2001 as Revolution and was renamed LiveCode in 2001. The company behind it was Runtime Revolution Ltd, also known as RunRev Ltd, based in Edinburgh, which was renamed LiveCode Ltd in 2015.
The company has had considerable impact in computer science education in Scotland, and in its 2013 kickstarter [7]noted that "almost a quarter of secondary schools in Scotland are now teaching with LiveCode."
[8]
LiveCode creates applications that run on Windows, Mac, Linux (including Raspberry Pi), iOS, Android, and web. LiveCode syntax is English-like, and the company argues that "every semicolon or bracket required by a language introduces another potential source of error."
In 2013 RunRev launched a [9]Kickstarter crowdfunding project to fund making LiveCode open source. "Our vision is that this new next-generation LiveCode will be free and open source. It will run on every popular platform and device. It will let you write programs in English. And by being open, its English language programming will be extensible to any computing problem out there. That's a world first," said the blurb.
The project was to include a new visual editor. The Kickstarter raised nearly £500,000, more than the initial goal of £350,000.
[10]
Why does open source work for some platforms but not for LiveCode? "LiveCode is focused on being very easy to use," Miller tells The Reg . "The idea is that you're writing your apps in a language that's as close to English as possible… you're not going into the nitty gritty details of memory management and the things associated with a lower-level language.
"The open source project, the LiveCode engine itself, is written in C/C++ so it is that lower-level language which is the very thing that a lot of our user base is trying to avoid."
[11]Utopia? Echoes of Delphi and Dreamweaver in new visual editor for React
[12]Microsoft’s IFTTT-alike Flow seeps into the iPhone
[13]Docker Desktop no longer free for large companies: New 'Business' subscription is here
[14]30 years of Linux: OS was successful because of how it was licensed, says Red Hat
This meant a mis-match between the users and those with the ability to contribute. There were some C++ developers in the community, said Miller, but "there weren't enough of those."
Miller tells us that while the Kickstarter funding was significant, it was not enough to sustain the project. "It wasn't anywhere near our annual revenue even in that one Kickstarter campaign," he says.
He feels that "I don't think you can say that after eight years we didn't give it our best shot. And that code is still out there if people want to use it."
Were any of those original funders disappointed now to lose what they sponsored? "There's been some people that have been disappointed," he says.
"At the same time, there's a lot of people who use the platform commercially who are keen to see us take it forward a bit faster."
He also tells The Reg that the funding was less than it first appeared, since much of it was from those using the platform commercially who got a licence in return for their pledge.
Is he concerned that a fork might appear? "There has been a suggestion, and if it happens, that's fine, but I think that for all the reasons that it didn't happen during that eight years, it would be a bit odd if it suddenly happened now."
According to Miller, "we're just trying to make this really affordable." Open source has won Live Code a larger user base, some of whom may now drift away, but this is a small company unlike other larger-scale cases we have seen where formerly open source projects have changed their licences and terms. ®
Get our [15]Tech Resources
[1] https://github.com/livecode
[2] https://livecode.org/
[3] https://regmedia.co.uk/2021/09/06/kevinmitchell.jpg
[4] https://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/jump?co=1&iu=/6978/reg_software/front&sz=300x50%7C300x100%7C300x250%7C300x251%7C300x252%7C300x600%7C300x601&tile=2&c=2YTaPooS4iJ2ZVLZAlfAsLwAAAMg&t=ct%3Dns%26unitnum%3D2%26raptor%3Dcondor%26pos%3Dtop%26test%3D0
[5] https://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/jump?co=1&iu=/6978/reg_software/front&sz=300x50%7C300x100%7C300x250%7C300x251%7C300x252%7C300x600%7C300x601&tile=4&c=44YTaPooS4iJ2ZVLZAlfAsLwAAAMg&t=ct%3Dns%26unitnum%3D4%26raptor%3Dfalcon%26pos%3Dmid%26test%3D0
[6] https://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/jump?co=1&iu=/6978/reg_software/front&sz=300x50%7C300x100%7C300x250%7C300x251%7C300x252%7C300x600%7C300x601&tile=3&c=33YTaPooS4iJ2ZVLZAlfAsLwAAAMg&t=ct%3Dns%26unitnum%3D3%26raptor%3Deagle%26pos%3Dmid%26test%3D0
[7] https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1755283828/open-source-edition-of-livecode/description?lang=de
[8] https://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/jump?co=1&iu=/6978/reg_software/front&sz=300x50%7C300x100%7C300x250%7C300x251%7C300x252%7C300x600%7C300x601&tile=4&c=44YTaPooS4iJ2ZVLZAlfAsLwAAAMg&t=ct%3Dns%26unitnum%3D4%26raptor%3Dfalcon%26pos%3Dmid%26test%3D0
[9] https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1755283828/open-source-edition-of-livecode
[10] https://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/jump?co=1&iu=/6978/reg_software/front&sz=300x50%7C300x100%7C300x250%7C300x251%7C300x252%7C300x600%7C300x601&tile=3&c=33YTaPooS4iJ2ZVLZAlfAsLwAAAMg&t=ct%3Dns%26unitnum%3D3%26raptor%3Deagle%26pos%3Dmid%26test%3D0
[11] https://www.theregister.com/2021/06/17/utopia_react_tool_alpha_release/
[12] https://www.theregister.com/2016/06/21/microsoft_flow_ifttt_rivalb/
[13] https://www.theregister.com/2021/08/31/docker_desktop_no_longer_free/
[14] https://www.theregister.com/2021/08/25/30_years_of_linux_red_hat/
[15] https://whitepapers.theregister.com/
LiveCode Community, open source under the GPLv3, was [1]archived on GitHub and future development will be closed source.
In the [2]official announcement , LiveCode CEO Kevin Miller says: "99 per cent of the work on LiveCode is done by our in-house team. With a large section of the LiveCode community using the free open source edition, the cost of maintaining this vs the reward for doing so is not a balanced equation."
I don't think you can say that after eight years we didn't give it our best shot. And that code is still out there if people want to use it
Subscriptions are per-platform and now start at £7.99+VAT per month for one platform, for applications that run only while the subscription is active, or £239+VAT per year for one platform with the ability to build standalone applications.
[3]
LiveCode CEO Kevin Mitchell breaks the news to open source users
"We've been taking a close look at the LiveCode business model," adds Miller. "We've been an open source platform for round about eight years … we've seen user base grow consistently during that period and some of you have even made contributions to the platform. However a lot of our user base has moved to using the open source edition… unfortunately that leaves us in a position where we don't have the level of resources that we need to take the platform forward."
Miller says that "if you are an open source user and you truly cannot afford the licence, please get in touch and we will sort you out."
[4]
LiveCode is a rapid application development environment originally inspired by HyperCard, a scripting environment for the Mac back in the eighties and nineties.
[5]
[6]
The development system was introduced in 2001 as Revolution and was renamed LiveCode in 2001. The company behind it was Runtime Revolution Ltd, also known as RunRev Ltd, based in Edinburgh, which was renamed LiveCode Ltd in 2015.
The company has had considerable impact in computer science education in Scotland, and in its 2013 kickstarter [7]noted that "almost a quarter of secondary schools in Scotland are now teaching with LiveCode."
[8]
LiveCode creates applications that run on Windows, Mac, Linux (including Raspberry Pi), iOS, Android, and web. LiveCode syntax is English-like, and the company argues that "every semicolon or bracket required by a language introduces another potential source of error."
In 2013 RunRev launched a [9]Kickstarter crowdfunding project to fund making LiveCode open source. "Our vision is that this new next-generation LiveCode will be free and open source. It will run on every popular platform and device. It will let you write programs in English. And by being open, its English language programming will be extensible to any computing problem out there. That's a world first," said the blurb.
The project was to include a new visual editor. The Kickstarter raised nearly £500,000, more than the initial goal of £350,000.
[10]
Why does open source work for some platforms but not for LiveCode? "LiveCode is focused on being very easy to use," Miller tells The Reg . "The idea is that you're writing your apps in a language that's as close to English as possible… you're not going into the nitty gritty details of memory management and the things associated with a lower-level language.
"The open source project, the LiveCode engine itself, is written in C/C++ so it is that lower-level language which is the very thing that a lot of our user base is trying to avoid."
[11]Utopia? Echoes of Delphi and Dreamweaver in new visual editor for React
[12]Microsoft’s IFTTT-alike Flow seeps into the iPhone
[13]Docker Desktop no longer free for large companies: New 'Business' subscription is here
[14]30 years of Linux: OS was successful because of how it was licensed, says Red Hat
This meant a mis-match between the users and those with the ability to contribute. There were some C++ developers in the community, said Miller, but "there weren't enough of those."
Miller tells us that while the Kickstarter funding was significant, it was not enough to sustain the project. "It wasn't anywhere near our annual revenue even in that one Kickstarter campaign," he says.
He feels that "I don't think you can say that after eight years we didn't give it our best shot. And that code is still out there if people want to use it."
Were any of those original funders disappointed now to lose what they sponsored? "There's been some people that have been disappointed," he says.
"At the same time, there's a lot of people who use the platform commercially who are keen to see us take it forward a bit faster."
He also tells The Reg that the funding was less than it first appeared, since much of it was from those using the platform commercially who got a licence in return for their pledge.
Is he concerned that a fork might appear? "There has been a suggestion, and if it happens, that's fine, but I think that for all the reasons that it didn't happen during that eight years, it would be a bit odd if it suddenly happened now."
According to Miller, "we're just trying to make this really affordable." Open source has won Live Code a larger user base, some of whom may now drift away, but this is a small company unlike other larger-scale cases we have seen where formerly open source projects have changed their licences and terms. ®
Get our [15]Tech Resources
[1] https://github.com/livecode
[2] https://livecode.org/
[3] https://regmedia.co.uk/2021/09/06/kevinmitchell.jpg
[4] https://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/jump?co=1&iu=/6978/reg_software/front&sz=300x50%7C300x100%7C300x250%7C300x251%7C300x252%7C300x600%7C300x601&tile=2&c=2YTaPooS4iJ2ZVLZAlfAsLwAAAMg&t=ct%3Dns%26unitnum%3D2%26raptor%3Dcondor%26pos%3Dtop%26test%3D0
[5] https://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/jump?co=1&iu=/6978/reg_software/front&sz=300x50%7C300x100%7C300x250%7C300x251%7C300x252%7C300x600%7C300x601&tile=4&c=44YTaPooS4iJ2ZVLZAlfAsLwAAAMg&t=ct%3Dns%26unitnum%3D4%26raptor%3Dfalcon%26pos%3Dmid%26test%3D0
[6] https://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/jump?co=1&iu=/6978/reg_software/front&sz=300x50%7C300x100%7C300x250%7C300x251%7C300x252%7C300x600%7C300x601&tile=3&c=33YTaPooS4iJ2ZVLZAlfAsLwAAAMg&t=ct%3Dns%26unitnum%3D3%26raptor%3Deagle%26pos%3Dmid%26test%3D0
[7] https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1755283828/open-source-edition-of-livecode/description?lang=de
[8] https://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/jump?co=1&iu=/6978/reg_software/front&sz=300x50%7C300x100%7C300x250%7C300x251%7C300x252%7C300x600%7C300x601&tile=4&c=44YTaPooS4iJ2ZVLZAlfAsLwAAAMg&t=ct%3Dns%26unitnum%3D4%26raptor%3Dfalcon%26pos%3Dmid%26test%3D0
[9] https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1755283828/open-source-edition-of-livecode
[10] https://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/jump?co=1&iu=/6978/reg_software/front&sz=300x50%7C300x100%7C300x250%7C300x251%7C300x252%7C300x600%7C300x601&tile=3&c=33YTaPooS4iJ2ZVLZAlfAsLwAAAMg&t=ct%3Dns%26unitnum%3D3%26raptor%3Deagle%26pos%3Dmid%26test%3D0
[11] https://www.theregister.com/2021/06/17/utopia_react_tool_alpha_release/
[12] https://www.theregister.com/2016/06/21/microsoft_flow_ifttt_rivalb/
[13] https://www.theregister.com/2021/08/31/docker_desktop_no_longer_free/
[14] https://www.theregister.com/2021/08/25/30_years_of_linux_red_hat/
[15] https://whitepapers.theregister.com/
katrinab
What does this offer that you can't get with the likes of Visual Basic or Python?
If 1/4 of Secondary schools in Scotland are teaching LiveCode, I very much suspect the other 3/4s are teaching one of the Python variants that comes with the Raspberry Pi.
Brewster's Angle Grinder
I wondered how this revolutionary natural language programming script worked. So I looked up some samples. And found gems [1]like this.
on keyDown pKey
if the length of me >= 5 then
// If there are 5 or more characters in the field
// beep and prevent text entry
beep
else
// Allow text entry by passing the keyDown message
pass keyDown
end if
end keyDown
I was hoping to see something like Github's code pilot where you type in a natural language description and it does the work. But its a recognizable programming language. And despite claims about punctuators I can see a greater-than-equals sign and a C++ comment. And there's camel case, too; I didn't stay to find out how significant it is.
I'm not going to diss it too much. Maybe it's a bit less intimidating. But its made choices that have been around since before Pascal and added some verbiage and/or draws information from prepositions. No doubt it takes some finessing under the hood. But its still describing the same structures in the same way that we're all used to. There's nothing that revolutionary here. Still, good luck to them!
[1] https://lessons.livecode.com/m/2592/l/125547-limiting-the-number-of-characters-during-data-entry
A programming language as a product?
pip25
There certainly were times in the past when this was widespread, but nowadays? Maybe I'm simply being ignorant but I'm honestly surprised this is still sustainable, especially for (seemingly) smaller players like LiveCode.
Need to strip out GPL contributions
Anonymous Coward
You can only change the license on code you hold copyright on. Presumably other code will be removed?
Funding
Some developers of open source software are in it because they love to code or they developed software that they wanted to solve their problem and offered it to others.
But for projects with ongoing development, often an active user community of unpaid developers is not enough. Some rely on sponsors contributing employee time or money. Others transition to separate licenses for commercial and non-commercial use.
Because of the way LiveCode development was funded, with a single Kickstarter payment but with few in the user community who could contribute expertise to development, these don't seem to be options. Offering the existing software as open source and continuing development as closed source seems reasonable.
I suspect funding development will be a growing issue for the FOSS community.