On this side of the pond, just grow some facial hair, wear a baseball cap, and call yourself an ammosexual. All will be well.

..And on this side of the pond, americans are easily recognizable by their baseball-caps, whether they are ammosexuals or not..

Septics are the ones with baseball caps _not_ made by Burberry.

Altho they are all ammosexual

There is a book of Americans and their guns. One has / had a Napoleonic era canon.

There is a book of Americans and their guns. One has / had a Napoleonic era canon.

I think most people would be surprised at what Americans own. Tanks, artillery, MG's, (not the car), mortars, bazookas, etc. Some even own fighter planes. There are specialty types like Civil War and Revolutionary War collectors (and re-enactors who own operational cannon.

well, the same could be said about man's penis, therefore... HE'S A WITCH!!!!! :(

Was any of the seized ammunition usable in the tank?

Perhaps that's why they didn't arrest him. Even if the tank cannon *could* be made operational, there's the not-insignificant problem of obtaining ammunition for a 70+ year old weapon. Not something you can just order from Amazon.

Seriously, perhaps it's time to reconsider some of those laws.

Props to the guy for having something in his garage that took an entire crew and a tank transporter to remove...I'm assuming he was NOT married :-)

El Reg» The defendant ... was ordered to sell or donate the tank and flak cannon to a museum or collector within two years, as reported by AP News.

If he had just kept the tank, he might have been able to make a good case for nostalgia and garner some sympathy, but enough ammunition and weaponry to make a terrorist outfit/criminal gang wet their pants is a much, much harder case to justify.

Besides, if it was no secret that he had a tank, why was nothing done about it until now? That he has to either sell it or give it away for free does seem rather vindictive of the court.

> That he has to either sell it or give it away for free does seem rather vindictive of the court.

To be fair, they probably could have just confiscated it. Letting him sell it seems very reasonable.

Being an expert in WW2 German military hardware - i.e. I once saw an episode of Combat Dealers - I'd have thought a working Panther tank would be worth a fortune.

You'd hope so since he has 250kEUR fine to pay.

34 wheeled vehicle, heavily armoured,

4000 km on the clock.

One careful owner, however the other owner was a bit of a Nazi War Machine.

The guy collects military hardware. So what? Lot's of people collect strange things. He's been made to hand it over to a collector or museum? How come another collector can own it but he cannot?

Surely there has to be something deeper in this? The article says he was not a Nazi sympathiser, nor does it say he was mentally unstable, a nuisance to his neighbours or anything, so why, after 44 years of owning and spending his life restoring this has it now been confiscated?

Seems totally unfair and a horribly cruel thing to do to an elderly gentleman - not just confiscate his lifes work, but the fine too.

Something just does not add up about this.

Kudos to lifes oddballs who don't conform to boring society norms.

He's simply gotten too old to drive a Panther tank...

"The guy collects military hardware. So what?"

So death is a likely consequence of misappropriation of his collection.

Death is inevitable, no matter how it comes about.

That just shows a lack of ambition.

So does this mean that Mark Twain's "A Connecticut Yankee in the Court of King Arthur" is a banned book too? It's busy "promoting military hardware" in a book that children read?

The problem is that this is Germany, and if Germany is seen to condone any kind of nostalgia towards the Nazi era, then the rest of the world community will be all over them like a ton of bricks.

Also, German law - written by the Allies after 45- take a very negative view towards Nazi memorabilia

Museums are a different matter, but these to will not gloss over the stuff that happened.

German schools spend a large part of history classes explaining what happened.

On top of it all, the country is still scarred with the ruins of the war. It is easy to find stone buildings pockmarked by ordnance, and many cities clearly show where the old city core disappeared in flames.

As a result, most Germans have a strong aversion against anything that has to do with the era.

You will NOT see WW2 reenactors outside of very iffy circles.

The man did not have the required paperwork, he collected Nazi weaponry...

To expect a different outcome would have been naive.

Very good post.

"As a result, most Germans have a strong aversion against anything that has to do with the era."

As opposed to the British, who only know of Germany between 1933 and 1945. Tell them anything about Germany before the Nazis and they ... zzzz.

And tell them anything about how Germany has recovered after the Second World War and they want to know .... zzzz.

Ask the British anything about the Second World War and, well we won it! What more do you need to know? Brexit, brexit, brexit. Ra, ra, ra!

(I added the brexit but to attract downvotes from the brexiters.)

> (I added the brexit but to attract downvotes from the brexiters.)

Have a downvote from a Scottish remainer for knowing nothing about the British.

You do seem to know a fair bit about the English but you forgot to mention 1966.

"As opposed to the British, who only know of Germany between 1933 and 1945. Tell them anything about Germany before the Nazis and they ... zzzz."

Most Brits have a fair idea of Germany before, during and after WW2. It's what you get when you have a decent education system.

Oh; and have a downvote for writing a whole post that neatly falls somewhere between tripe and bollocks.

I thought the politicians were Nazis and the military hardware was the blueprint for western designs since the war

I understand the Germans wanting to put it all behind them as some people keep ranting on about it in order to do unpopular things but if there are sanctioned collected of this kind of thins in Germany then this seems a little unfair, certainly remove any live ammo but I would have thought having and restoring something for years is something that defines a collector

It is a working tank, including the gun. Weapon laws are quite strict about that sort of thing. Nothing to do with the Nazis, it would be the same in many other countries in Europe. I am pretty sure it would not have been different had he owned a working Leopard II, a Churchill, or whatever.

You write: "It is a working tank, including the gun."

The article states: "Though its guns were not operational, the tank could be driven......"

Downvote for you I'm afraid for not reading the article ;-)

Well the tank's gun was disabled, but the 88 flak wasn't.

On a side note, this is actually a British made Panther. It never fought for the Nazis.

He didn't just collect military hardware.

He also had 1500 rounds of ammunition, and largely enough firearms to use them.

Not something I'd like to have in my village, even if held by an 84-year-old.

Actually, especially not if held by an 84-year-old. Ancient grudges can run deep.

Why was the defendant not classed as a collector? seems as though someone who has a lot of stuff because he is enthusiastic about them is pretty much the definition of a collector perhaps he should just give it himself and let them prove he isn't one already after the years of possession, and rebuilding.

I guess the magic word is "Papework". Germans love some red tape.

Now, in the middle of the investigation, perhaps it was already too late to come back with the necessary approvals to be considered an official, or real, or whatever, collector.

The outcome does sound too harsh for the old gentleman, but dura lex, sed lex.

Well, I do get your point.

I'm trying the imagine what would happen if someone did the same with a working, weaponised and fireable Nazi tank, to clear the snow in a leafy Surrey neighbourhood.

There's a certain level of military cache, where you have to ask, what is the worst thing that can happen, when a potentially ill pensioner with poor eyesight gets loose with a 34 wheel tank?

I will say though. that unless there are extenuating circumstances, a 250k fine seems excessive, considering he displayed no antisocial, violent or problematic opinions.

The article states: "Though its guns were not operational, the tank could be driven......"

Downvote for you as well at the other person higher up the thread I'm afraid for not reading the article ;-)

@John Doe 12 Have a downvote yourself for not reading the bit about how the tank's gun could have been made operational within a few days. That's close enough to 'working' to make it a big worry.

The guy collected not only a working tank but also other weapons and ammunition. The laws regulating the posession of weapons are much stricter in most countries than in the US (and wherever you live), where it (from your comment) seems to be perfectly normal to own military grade equipment, assault guns, hand grenades, mortars, anti-aircraft guns and working tanks.

Here in Europe (in the countries I have lived in at least) you might be able to get permission to own a tank, provided the gun has been disabled properly (not the case here), and you have the paperwork, and you (most likely) apply for the paperwork before you actually take posession of it (also not the case here), and have no prior convictions (especially when it comes to illegal posession of weapons, especially when it comes to weapons of war - very definitely now no longer the case here). So another collector (and of course a museum) could actually buy and own the tank legally.

Insinuating in the article that this was well known, and accepted until now, through the statement of the mayor recollecting that "he drove around it in [...] 1978" is misleading, to say the very least. This is more than 40 years ago. Older people (ok, those say 50 and above, so not antedeluvian) might remember it now that the subject is raised, but I very much doubt it was active knowledge. Like when the neighbours would talk about him "oh, you know, Johann (or Herrmann, or Otto) from next door, you know, the one who owns this tank..."

Sure, people have all sorts of strange hobbies, collect weird stuff, but there are always legal limits. Those are set by the country you reside in, like it or not (and as I wrote above: it is likely that he could in fact have owned much of the stuff legally - had he obeyed the rules).

The Gentleman seemed to accept the judgement, and two years to donate them? Seems an odd combination, you're guilty of amassing bad stuff, but two years to get rid of them...

It takes time to sell a near running condition Panther tank (with the correct paperwork for export and to show he complied with the court order) especially with a "live" gun. I bet there's some US collectors chomping at the bit to buy it though. They're not as fussy about people owning functional pieces of artillery and afaik a working 7.5 cm KwK 42 L/70 for a panther is a rare thing indeed. Most that survived have been chopped or welded shut in a way that pretty much makes re-activating them impossible.

Over here we have folks with functional 105mm howitzers. It's rather fun to fire one off at the range! For instance, there's a M52 for sale right now by Sotherby's. The vehicle is currently pictured on their auction site and currently resides in CA.

The ATF requires a $200/year license for the vehicle, a background check, and another $200 license/year/live round.

Quite frankly, it's no big deal. Here's one in TX: https://youtu.be/A5s-3uJG_gY

Happy hunting!

....and have you noticed the amount of swearing the tank drivers have?

They all have Turrets....

The Panther was hitched to other tanks and hauled out to be loaded onto a trailer.

How many tanks did he have???

Suspect it wasn't actually "tanks" rather Armoured Recovery Vehicles [ARVs] which are based on a tank chassis. [the German ones are] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armoured_recovery_vehicle

I'm left wondering how large is his basement?

And how did he get it in and out?

Gibbs?

In and out is easy... it's a working tank

But I suspect his basement opens via large garage doors to ground level at one side of his property to avoid regular building repairs.

Why will they need a bunch of soldiers and other vehicles to drag out the old tank if it was in working condition?

I understand it didn't have tracks, so, can it still actually move on it's own power?

I doubt the tank has moved more than twenty feet back and forward since he took out out snow-clearing, so while it may be running there's no guarantee it was fully and safely working.

If the steering controls and throttles were, unbeknownst to them, not working properly, the first time you stick it in gear and dump the clutches, it could do a rapid 180 and take out the entire house. That's assuming that the tracks were safe, parts of the fuel system hadn't rotted away and couldn't handle full fuel pressure under load etc - none of which would likely be easily 'checkable' in a private basement without fairly serious risk.

As such, it's massively safer to call in the local armed forces, use their modern tank recovery gear, winch it out, and not even try to take it out under it's own steam - that's for a museum workshop to do where they have the time and space to make sure everything is safe for use.

'Running when parked' is never a guarantee that things haven't broken or degraded in the meantime - applies to anything with an engine, from a moped to a Panzer.

A moped is less likely to kill you by accident though. Well, slightly less likely...

Steven R

I had the same confussion when reading that sentence. I take they hooked it to other tanks to take it ouf of his basement without turning it on. They were towing it.

As above, they used the currently in service Leopard 2 based ARVs. Why they needed more than one I'm not sure though. Probably to spread the load and not tear the pavement to absolute bits. A panther is a bit on the heavy side and a Leopard ARV on full tilt will probably pull the bricks out of the street and break through normal asphalt like it was paper

"Don't mention the war"

On a more serious note the judge does seem to have been a massive dick in this instance. The fine is well over the top, I'm with YAHAC above, on this, it smells bad.

The Judge was clearly not a Cat person ....

MHV reference

The judgement is lower than the amount the elderly person can likely sell the tank for (which will probably go for near or above a million Euros). So it basically amounts to "we can't let you profit off of Nazi war memorabilia TOO much". Which seems quite inline with German sentiment on the matter in my experience.