Windows 11 still doesn't understand our complex lives – and it hurts
- Reference: 1626078604
- News link: https://www.theregister.co.uk/2021/07/12/windows_11_still_doesnt_understand/
- Source link:
It's not that I haven't used Windows – I do, as little as possible, in a VM – but recent problems with Teams persuaded me that repotting it in its own native soil would reduce the pain. And besides, I wanted to give Windows 11 a fair chance.
Ho, as they say, ho.
[1]
The problems Teams had with Linux peripherals – blind webcam, odd audio behaviour – went away, I dared to dream. And then a Teams participant sent me a file via whatever Teams calls its sub-Slack group chat system. (I tried to find out if it had a name by clicking on Help, About… which told me it was the Help system. Ah, Microsoft.)
[2]
[3]
The file download choked, citing "No Authorisation." Teams primly told me to request authorisation, which I did. Oops. There is a problem. Please pass this long stream of wibble to your system admin. That's me, by the way.
I wasn't much help. Yet in that message was the real problem – the downloady bit was using a completely different Microsoft ID to the one I was logged in with.
[4]
I still don't know how it knew about that other ID, which I only ever use for web access to a different client's Office 365. There was no reason my local Windows, where I was running the Teams app under my personal ID, should know about it.
I asked around: Teams, it seems, is really bad at this. It affects families whose children have to use school IDs for remote lessons on shared computers, people like me who work for multiple clients who may have security policies enforcing an ID they issue, and people like all of us who have a work life online and a personal life online. Try adding Active Directory for real fun, a one thousand-yard-stare veteran advised me.
In fairness, simultaneous use of multiple IDs is rarely handled well by modern UI'd desktops and remote services. All systems assume you have one ID, and if you have the temerity to want more, then you must log out and log back in again, an idea unchanged since mainframes stalked the earth.
[5]
Technically, all modern operating systems are multi-ID, they just have no easy path to make good use of this. But Windows... ah, Windows adds extra layers of mystery and bewilderment.
I can think of five ways to manage simultaneous multiple IDs with sanity, of which I use two and bailed on a third. In order of increasing subtlety, they are – separate hardware platforms dedicated to each ID, separate virtual machines ditto, separate containers, separate workspaces, and separate browser tabs.
Hardware platforms are easy but you end up emailing stuff to yourself. A lot. In 2021. It's crazy. VMs take up less real space and can talk to each other a little more easily, but they're fat and you're still maintaining entire OSes for email access. Containerised browser instances may work. I spent half a day with Docker before realising that, by god, Outlook had tricked me again into wasting my life (your mileage may vary). And I know of no system that allows different simultaneous workspaces with their own IDs, nor browser that allows the same with tabs. In some ways, especially in direct user experience benefits, virtualization has not lived up to its promise.
[6]Microsoft releases Windows 11 Insider Preview, attempts to defend labyrinth of hardware requirements
[7]Developing for Windows 11: Like developing for Windows 10, but with rounded corners?
[8]Happy with your existing Windows 10 setup? Good, because Windows 11 could turn its nose up at your CPU
[9]What you need to know about Microsoft Windows 11: It will run Android apps
Some of this lack is architectural; I don't know the details of how Windows maps processes, accounts (local and Microsoft), shared and isolated resources, and associated security issues, but I do know it wasn't designed for the use case of someone wanting to use two Microsoft IDs at the same time. It would be easier, one suspects, for Google to implement multi-ID support in Chrome, instead of the global log-out/log-in switch it enforces. Easier, but still not easy.
But Google has a lesser responsibility here than Microsoft. Google is not the default architecture for enterprise and government IT. In education, Google has no infrastructure – and where it does make an impact via Chromebooks, they are dedicated to the student as a student, not home/life chimeras. I have lived a long time with multiple Google IDs and it's been mostly OK. It took Teams about half an hour to stick the boot in.
Windows 11, even more than Windows 10, leans heavily on the "work/life" duality. With Windows 11, Microsoft had a chance to make good on that premise. It would have been a boon all around. It would have eased the pain of anyone with multiple IDs – which is almost anyone in education or work. It would have been a major advantage over everyone else. It would have reduced the workload on IT support staff – especially in the education sector, which needs all the help it can get. It might even have helped elevate the reputation of Teams, although there are limits to even the best idea.
We won't get any of that. We will get a Teams button on the taskbar. As Teams itself commanded me when it had finished updating its app – "Enjoy."
Yeah. You too, Teams. You too. ®
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[6] https://www.theregister.com/2021/06/28/microsoft_windows_11_insider_preview_released/
[7] https://www.theregister.com/2021/06/28/developing_for_windows_11/
[8] https://www.theregister.com/2021/06/25/windows_11_processor/
[9] https://www.theregister.com/2021/06/24/microsoft_windows_11/
[10] https://whitepapers.theregister.com/
Re: A prayer for those forced to use Teams
Teams and Slack are as bad as each other....
Teams is forced because w use Office 365, so it's part of the corporate sub.
Slack is used by the devs.
As I have a foot in both vamps, I have to use both.
The biggest issue I have is that someimes, the apps startup and the content doesn't load... just a blank window. So I have to do a force refresh.
The second biggest issue is the god-awful management of previous chats/discussions. It's hard work navigating through it in a bigger corp.
web Teams works on Linux
I have been the web interface of Teams on Linux all through the pandemic. Works (even camera). There is supposedly a Linux Teams version, which is essentially a web browser running a single app (an Electron monstrosity), and some of my colleagues who have tried seem to have trouble with authentication all the time with it, so I never bothered. Web Teams works for my needs.
My spouse has tried to work with Teams on Windows, with scarcely less problems (and as the IT support of our house, these immediately are my problems, causing grey hair). Yes, it really has trouble comprehending a user may have to access Teams as a member of different organizations, or as a "consumer" Windows ID user. How can it be so hard?
Re: web Teams works on Linux
The web version (and Linux) is a CPU hog. I've never knew my laptop could spin its fans so loud - and try to talk to people when all they can hear are your laptop fans.
Teams is not fit for purpose.
Re: web Teams works on Linux
Teams for Windows is also Electron. Electron is owned by Microsoft since the Github takeover. New OneNote and VS Code are Electron, too. The new Outlook One will be electron-based as well.
Teams on Windows is even worse. It is installed into the home folder. Even if you ask for global install, it will install one copy to Program Files and then one copy to each user's home folder. Including an auto updater which pulls binaries from the Internet and puts them in the home folder, where the versions are accumulating to gigabytes of old Chromium DLLs and what not.
But the biggest joke is that Microsoft made a tutorial how to improve Teams performance by whitelisting your home folder in the antivirus. You could not make this up.
https://github.com/MicrosoftDocs/OfficeDocs-SkypeForBusiness/blob/9df8f4069848c52ae810719e4baf171014b01452/Teams/teams-files-folders-antivirus-perf.md
Browser sessions don't work as you've described
"I know of no system that allows different simultaneous workspaces with their own IDs, nor browser that allows the same with tabs "
How are you expecting that to work in a web browser? Each tab is using the same browser session - they don't have a "separate session per tab" feature, and that would be annoying as hell if they did. Imagine if you'd signed into Gmail and then had to login separately to Google Docs, Google Sheets etc... per tab .
This is why if, for example, you wanted to login to 2 different Gmail accounts you'd have to do it in 2 separate browsers, or a separate Incognito mode browser window. You can't be logged in with 2 separate accounts under 1 session.
I'm not sure what you're expecting here but this seems to be a lack of understanding of how sessions work.
Re: Browser sessions don't work as you've described
Firefox supports exactly that (allowing several separate workspaces, not forcing you to log in in each tab) through container tabs. Each container (with n open tabs in it) is a separate workspace and you can log into different Google accounts (or Microsoft or anything else) simultaneously
Re: Browser sessions don't work as you've described
Chrome will let you log in with different Google accounts simultaneously in different tabs.
Re: Browser sessions don't work as you've described
@sictransit what steps are you following to do that in Chrome?
Re: Browser sessions don't work as you've described
Err not sure it's that bad - Edge (Chromium) has profiles - so I can easily have a work one and a personal one and these operate in separate Windows. Chrome seems to have similar?
My Windows is hooked up to both Work and Personal Accounts both with separate OneDrive Syncs - so that's workable. (Account - Add Workplace Account)
Even Teams has me logged in and switchable between orgs (NOT in a nice way with Multiple Windows though - come one MS!!) and my personal account (that is a separate Window).
I have Admin accounts (Azure etc) so they run in my Windows Sandbox or in private browser sessions...
Generally I use the multiple virtual desktop feature to keep these worlds organised...
So it is "doable" - this issue I have is that MS makes it hard to have a separate Admin account (e.g. in Azure) - which should associated with my normal account - so I can share a licence or it gets deleted when I leave and org or change roles...
And besides, I wanted to give Windows 11 a fair chance.
Should you then not wait for it to be officially released?
It would be easier, one suspects, for Google to implement multi-ID support in Chrome, instead of the global log-out/log-in switch it enforces. Easier, but still not easy.
Google services already all let you change accounts, some of which you may already be logged in to. Gold standard as far as I'm concerned.
linking different profiles is not a good idea; then if your YouTube account gets banned (because the "AI" glitched) you loose access to gmail
Needs tightening??
"lose" not "loose". That is all.
Browser Profiles
With Firefox, you can have multiple browser profiles. They have completely different browsing histories, cookie stores, password stores, proxy settings etc. For example, set up one for work and one for personal use.
Go to the "about:profiles" page.
Edit: You can run them at the same time in separate windows (not in tabs of one window though). I also like to put a theme on some so the window has a different color to avoid confusion.
Also for my main private PC, I just added a completely separate Linux user for work stuff This way, everything contained in a separate home folder and can be easily removed from the private PC. I can use mail programs, contacts, calendars etc. without mixing up the two.
Re: Browser Profiles
yeah, running an application (even a GUI one) as a separate user on Linux is relatively simple if you are at least a bit advanced: sudo will handle both
Re: Browser Profiles
So will Windows. Runas/Run as different user.
Re: Browser Profiles
Another Pro Tip: Right click an EXE while Shift key pressed.
Re: Browser Profiles
You can also do two full graphical logins at the same time and switch with Alt+Ctrl+F1/F2/etc. Or you switch users using the GUI, but then you always have to unlock your screen.
Typically tty1 is the login screen and the user screens start from tty2 (modern distros) or from tt7 (traditional distros, because 1-6 were reserved for text console).
Re: Browser Profiles
With Firefox you don't even need to go to all that effort. Just use "Open In New Container Tab" and select one of the pre-configured ones, Personal;work;banking, etc., or configure your own if you wish. Each container is completely isolated and you can have as many IDs logged in concurrently as you want.
Simples.
IE6
Teams is the IE6 of communication apps.
The only reason I can think of why it is being installed everywhere, are kickbacks that likely managers are getting under the table. If your company gets "infected" by Teams, better look around if managers are talking about buying a new TV set or booking holidays, where you know they wouldn't be able to afford it from their salary.
Users report tons of issues about this app but they won't even address it anymore, just say "we need to learn to live with the shortcomings of Teams" - as if it was the virus...
Companies that employ IT crowd that use Linux must often run a secondary communication system, because Teams client on Linux is an abomination.
Re: IE6
That is not surprising since Outlook is the IE6 of Mail User Agents and Excel is the IE6 of spreadsheet applications, it even fails at basic math.
I find Teams to be quite clunky and very lacking in the intuitive-use stakes - and the ever changing of bits (moving around parts of the UI for no apparent reason) drive me up the wall.
MS realised, many years, ago that letting people connect Outlook to multiple organisations (i.e. email addresses) was a good thing. I can see no realistic reason to not allow the same feature within Teams and then to have say different coloured windows to show the differences in accounts.
Browser Profiles
Chrome supports multiple profiles, they just open in new windows rather than different tabs. Works a treat for keeping all the different O365 accounts separate (and that increasingly includes for voluntary groups as well as work clients)
The frustration with the Teams client for Windows however is quite justified... Outlook is sitting there quite happily supporting six different Office 365 accounts simultaneously, letting me receive emails from any of them and send with little more fuss than a dropdown to select the account. Teams on the other hand is struggling with my work account and one client 'guest' profile; to support any more requires major logging out and and in again. Ironically the best client I've found for Teams so far is on the iPad...
In fairness, simultaneous use of multiple IDs is rarely handled well by modern UI'd desktops and remote services. All systems assume you have one ID, and if you have the temerity to want more, then you must log out and log back in again, an idea unchanged since mainframes stalked the earth.
KDE has had a "Switch User" option on the Power/Session section of the menu for a long time. Opt for that and whatever's running stays running but you're presented with the login screen which you'd obviously need for the other ID* - there'd be something wrong if you could just waft over into a different ID without presenting any credentials. Log out of the other ID when you've finished and, again, you have to present credentials to get back to your original session but it's still there as you left it. I don't see anything wrong about having to provide ID & password, in fact I'd count it as a problem if you didn't.
* This is assuming you're not just wanting a terminal session for the other user in which case you can just su.
Same shit, different millenium.
I've living this forever, especially as a tester, developer, and consultant for pretty much everyone. Except Oracle. Some I just will not do.
Seem to recall Trevor Pott complaint. Dabbsy, too.
Okay but have you seen all the new emojis they added? Or the GIF search? HAVE YOU SEEN THEM?!
A prayer for those forced to use Teams
I do not use Teams, and by the gods I pray that I never have to. I have used Slack on occasion, and it has given me a glimpse into the madness that lies that way.
Having Teams or Slack or other such tools which essentially just gets forced on you by your employer because of... reasons that may involve kickbacks or glorious ignorance is bad enough. Having every single system out there come with what is a work tool preinstalled and prominently put in a location where you are unlikely to miss it is borderline dystopian.
Heck, even back when MSN wasn't dead yet didn't MSFT dare to throw it into people's faces like that.
What's an OS? A Operating System that is application neutral and just happy to accept new drivers and run applications because that makes you happy as the user? Or a cynical intrusion into your private life that requires you to log into the MSFT mainframe using your MSFT-provided ID before logging into your MSFT Teams account for the working day.
Yes, I am one of those Windows 7 holdouts, why do you ask? :)