News: 1606914070

"...It's strange that people will object to overwhelming evidence from the world's top health organisations, but have no qualms about lapping up pseudoscience or the spittle-flecked rantings of a bloke sitting in a truck on YouTube. "

Sums up nicely current society. Years ago, when you had to go to a research library or write a letter for information to be posted back to you, people read and check facts. Now you can access almost anything online, read up on almost any subject, fact check in a matter seconds all from the comfort of your own house, yet utter bollocks & mental gymnastics of the highest order proliferate.

By all means research, question, debate but base in facts. It's not too difficult these days.

yet utter bollocks & mental gymnastics of the highest order proliferate.

Nothing really new, 200 years ago the people peddling the nonsense had no internet, so they promoted their wares from caravans at travelling shows, and the credulous bought pamphlets and phials from them.

fact check in a matter seconds all from the comfort of your own house, yet utter bollocks & mental gymnastics of the highest order proliferate

Indeed. Sadly, most anti-mask (and anti-vax, -5G, -climate, etc) people that I've met sincerely believe that they have researched and fact-checked their positions.

If I ask about how they vetted the credibility of sources or accuracy of the research that they cite, I get a lot of conspiracy mumbo jumbo about how any source that contradicts their preconceived view cannot be trusted because reasons (financial interest, global conspiracy, etc).

If I ask about whether they are aware of confirmation bias, I get the head shake that indicates that they consider me completely in the thrall of the conspiracy or whatever, and thus irredeemable.

And every single one of them is allowed to vote....

or the spittle-flecked rantings of a bloke sitting in a truck on YouTube.

Or in the Oval Office, for that matter.

Or, let's be fair, in Downing Street.

In the mean time who's up for a barbecue at Barnard Castle? Pangolin steaks are on me.

After nearly 40 years of living within 20 miles of Glastonbury, I have come to the the conclusion that it has become a self-created open prison for the (mostly) harmless nutcases in the UK. They seem to accumulate there making it a kind of benign Broadmoor...

Yup. I grew up on the outskirts of Wells and just within sight of the ever watchful gaze of the Tor before moving away. Earlier this year I took a motorbike trip back up through Somerset and was surprised that Glastonbury has become essentially the standard hellhole of close-knit housing estates and corporates with a few "enchanted isle" type idiots hanging around presumably pretending to remember how good it was "back in the day" whilst appearing to be doing nothing of great worth.

I guess the town centre does still retain some level of aesthetic charm, but it's essentially still just trying to peddle mystically themed tat to gullible types.

I grew up in Street (next-door village) in the 80s/90s. "trying to peddle mystically themed tat to gullible types" perfectly describes what was going on then too.

It's a nexus of Ley lines, seemingly, they have the power to attract layabouts and loonies.

Providing they don't infect anyone else, let them all get together and invoke Darwin.

Carbon dioxide would be a major problem - at depths, you can get the bends as it bubbles out. There's also the more dangerous di-hydrogen monoxide - safe in bulk (though you wouldn't want to expose bare flesh to it without suitable precautions - long exposure causes skin to swell, for example) but once warmed to body temperature and in gaseous form, who knows?

Also CO2 - suitable for extracting hemp products, but poisonous in small doses to human life? [Note: prolonged exposure in a positive pressure respirator to nothing but CO2 is a subtly different matter.]

You would need a hell of a pressure change to make CO2 bubble out.

The bends is caused by N2. CO2 is very soluble in water/blood so tends to stay there.

Sadly this has to be filed under the same heading as all the other crap. Mistrust of experts.

i.e. "Don't trust them big heads who know stuff".

Carefully fostered by a bunch of people who are terrified that the public will follow the lead of experts.

> a bunch of people who are terrified that the public will follow the lead of experts.

aka "Priests"

No. "Priests" of varying versions, are also in that mix, arguably. Mostly though politicians and high end scammers who can make more money by misleading the public than by encouraging the truth.

Think who'll do well out of Brexit.

But you don't understand, all these big heads who know stuff specifically created a system to discredit natural healers, things like science were engineered in such as way, with things like double blind drug trials, to put honest healers with natural remedies and simple charms out of business so big pharma can control the market, it's all corrupt you see.

Or so I read in a comment somewhere, jews have something to do with it too.

> It's strange that people will object to overwhelming evidence from the world's top health organisations, but have no qualms about lapping up pseudoscience or the spittle-flecked rantings of a bloke sitting in a truck on YouTube.

One of my friends believes the Bill Gates tracking chip vaccine conspiracy bollocks and another told me yesterday that Trump won the US election. WTF?!? These are usually intelligent people who I know have read history and philosophy yet they're buying into David Icke levels of bollocks.

Turn off the lights, the human race is done.

Sadly, being trained in critical thought doesn't seem to mean that people will apply it. I doubt that any engineers would subscribe to the chip in a vaccine but they may believe in the illuminati.

I don't know what the solution is. Journals I respect have articles by sensible sounding people who say that you shouldn't try and confront believers in fruitloopery but gently give them pointers to find sensible information so they then discover it for themselves and then break the chains of believing them selves to be superior to the "sheeple". Does it work. I tried it when someone shared an anti vax video on a whatsapp group but everyone else piled in making the person feel stupid so ...

Beer because I need one more often these days.

But beer will adversely affect your vaccinations - well unless like me you have had a smallpox jab they are immunisations...

Oh God I need a substantial meal - I wonder what could go with it?

"...there's no evidence that shoving a crystal up my bottom to realign my chakras will stop me getting ill?

Of course there isn't. Though it might make for a more pleasant experience if you remember first to have the crystal shaped and polished to remove any edges and sharp points.

On the contrary, it'll prevent all kinds of illnesses. If shoved hard, fast, and far enough. Kind of like smoking enough cigarettes is a nearly surefire way of never getting Alzheimer's.

The shop should have just got with the program and made hemp face coverings. Choice of prints, that leaf, peace signs etc. Hand washable, organic, biodegradeable and sustainable. Good for you, others, and the environment!

Then again, may cause irritation. But hemp's once of those multi-purpose plants. Hemp for Victory!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0xHCkOnn-A

One of my local pubs - sorry, community shop and off licence - sells locally made masks in unbleached cotton in a variety of tasteful and psychedelic patterns.

The town isn't full nutter like Glastonbury, but on Saturday a former mayor was knocking door to door imploring people not to get get immunised. He's on a high having had a 5G mast planning application turned down. They gave him a fine few weeks back for organising an anti-lockdown rally in the park. Before lockdown, anti 5G loonies had they stand out every weekend on the high street, but didn't keep any scientific evidence to back up their claims. Upon cross examination, they said they were using health fears about 5G as a way if blocking it, because really they were only concerned about 5G as a surveillance tool, and this tactic of theirs had worked in Glastonbury. (?!)

The non conformists have been in town since the industrial revolution... but then so have the engineers. Drug rehab folk came more recently.

They must be freaking out about this news! They've been wearing masks for throughout their career! who knew it was so bad!

That's why junior doctors fall asleep after a 96hour shift, it's the mask

It's just being stupid, anyone who thinks that they have never been stupid has probably been smoking too much. We see stupidity all the time, I regularly check my eyesight to make sure that I can see stupidity correctly. Maybe I'll return to politics and run for Prime Minister - that would solve it.

There's a difference between doing the occasional stupid thing and making a career out of it

Is a result of the government imposed death of the nation by lockdown. Covid is only active after 18:00, or if you're drinking alcohol? But not if you're eating?

When those in charge aren't paying attention to their own figures it's no wonder people believe alternative bollocks.

If you're under 45 [well 43 actually] there's nothing to stop you living your life as you did before March, please look at the UK figures, your chance of death from C-19 is tiny. https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/deathsregisteredweeklyinenglandandwalesprovisional/weekending20november2020

Separate shopping times for the elderly, not destroying the hospitality industry would be a start! And don't let little Jimmy visit granny. Let the down votes commence.

I shouldn't feed the troll, but:

"If you're under 45 [well 43 actually] there's nothing to stop you living your life..."

Except your sense of responsibility towards those who are not. Those who are vulnerable, whether from another illness or through age. Those who care for people in this category.

In the last year I have discovered that many more acquaintances than I would have ever expected live their lives with health conditions that mean their chance of dying if some prick in the queue in Sainsburys coughs over them is non-zero.

> If you're under 45 [well 43 actually] there's nothing to stop you living your life...

If only the two babies in my town that caught covid shortly after birth and died had known this.

As opposed to crystals and homeopathy?

"lying", surely?

I believe the current preferred phrase is "Reporting alternative facts".

[1]Always a classic, Mitchell and Webbs' Homeopathic A&E

[1] https://youtu.be/HMGIbOGu8q0

Back in March the WHO told us that masks were ineffective. I think "overwhelming evidence" is a bit strong, there's lots saying they are ineffective. Also, the home made ones that people just stick in their bag (and don't wash often / ever) could be even less effective.

Not that I'm saying I agree with this shop, but I'm not "all in" with the current recommendations and it seems there's room for some discussion?

Also, people tend to touch their faces more often when wearing a mask.

Huge Danish study showing they don't do very much. Shadow banned by Google, as it goes against the current narrative.

But no doubt I'll get lots of downvotes for this, as it seems very fashionable to be lockdown and mask zealots this year.

Anonymous for obvious reasons, as I feel like I'm swimming against the tide here and don't feel I can safely express my views openly (since this year!)

I think you're touching on the actual issue here.

The problem isn't people who doubt experts, it's the ones who trust them too much and don't get that sometimes they mislead you.

In March there was a global shortage of masks. So a variety of people took it upon themselves to lie to the plebs, probably spontaneously. Now there is no shortage but some of the plebs still believe what those people said when there was.

Having no faith in experts whatsoever, I masked up in March.

"Back in March the WHO told us that masks were ineffective"

One has to note when making this statement that WHO included the phrase "because non professionals will usually play with the mask, increasing their risk of exposure"

You made this comment yourself, but chose to separate it from the WHO advise. I absolutely recall the WHO announcement.

"Danish study showing they don't do much"

Was based on an incredibly small, non professionally, non controlled study. Its crap science. THATS why its banned.

I might be a mask zealot, but having two relatives who have been part of the medical community for over 50 years I know that they DO INDEED help. No mask will be perfect in our current situation, but *anything* that prevents your fetid exhalations from splattering someone around you will help slow down the spread of this disease.

As to lockdowns, well, I think we're open to debate about how best to manage to reduce our social interactions when a substantial portion of the population (at least in my neck of the woods) can't seem to understand the idea that large pools of people indoors yelling, shouting and singing makes for uncontrolled outbreaks of the infection.

Personally I'm thinking handcuffs and radiators, but I'm a prick that way.

Huge Danish study showing they don’t do very much. Shadow banned by Google, as it goes against the current narrative.

If you’re referring to the Danish study that was published recently in the Annals of Internal Medicine (see https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/M20-6817), its findings were nowhere near as general as “[masks] don’t do very much [for anyone anywhere at any time]”. If no other part of the study is read, at least its last three paragraphs should be digested.

I know it sounds attractive to divide the world into easy buckets, from nonsense such as "left" and "right" or "gammon" and "remoaner" to "boomer" and "millennial", things are usually not that simple black and white. The world is not a Disney film.

It is well-documented that people who describe themselves as "spiritual" [1]are more than average likely to follow the QAnon conspiracy too . You probably won't find many spiritual "gammon" or right wingers but that doesn't mean they can't believe in QAnon. The art of QAnon is that it is so broad that it covers things for many different people to latch on to. From child abuse conspiracies to anti-vax, from deep state to gold standard, from 5G to fluoride, from anti-Semitism to misogyny. All one needs is to tick one of those boxes and they may ignore all the other stuff they don't care about.

It is well-documented that anti-vaxxers, for instance, are actually relatively educated people, usually definitely above average. It's just that having read media studies or history at Oxford doesn't prevent someone from denying biological sciences or physics.

If you then have a cohort of people who believe in the healing power of crystals or homeopathy it should not be surprising that the jump to "the scientists don't know what they're talking about" is not that big.

[1] https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/aug/25/qanon-conspiracy-theory-explained-trump-what-is

I blame Soshal Meejah. Not for the bullshit, but for the massive drop in the standards of the science on offer.

Trouble is that many scientists want to get f1rst p0st on Tw@ter as much as the next ADD-afflicted toddler-alike. After all, the more drooling morons who like or share your post the more famous you are, right? As a result, a large amount of what's been published and reported is half-cocked or unverified.

For a classic example, look up everything that's been written on the subject of post-infection immunity. First it was a Big Thing, then it was effectively nonexistent and now we have vaccines, which sort of relies on this to be effective, it's actually more of a thing than anyone ever guessed. The truth? Answers on a postcard please to...

As for ...the world's top health organisations... , what doesn't help here is that one thing that does seem to have emerged is that the WHO is as bent as a nine-bob note and their actions did as much as anyone else's to ensure that there was a pandemic. Then again, they'd been crying wolf on the subject for so long that I can't help thinking that they really needed one...(!)