LibreOffice rains on OpenOffice's 20th anniversary parade, tells rival project to 'do the right thing' and die
- Reference: 1602756728
- News link: https://www.theregister.co.uk/2020/10/15/libreoffice_openoffice_taunts/
- Source link:
Many people, the letter says, are unaware of LibreOffice because the OpenOffice brand is still so strong, despite the lack of significant updates over the past six years. To remedy the situation, LibreOffice is asking its competitor for an endorsement.
"Make them aware that there’s a much more modern, up-to-date, professionally supported suite, based on OpenOffice, with many extra features that people need," says [1]the letter , penned by the board of The Document Foundation (TDF), steward of LibreOffice. "We appeal to Apache OpenOffice to do the right thing."
The rationale for asking OpenOffice to give up and go home arises from the Apache project's leisurely release schedule. Or as TDF's board put it, "[S]ince 2014, Apache OpenOffice (its current home) hasn’t had a single major release."
To highlight the vitality of LibreOffice compared to OpenOffice, the TDF letter notes that LibreOffice saw more than 15,000 code commits in 2019, compared to 595 for OpenOffice.
Such slights notwithstanding, Carl Marcum, VP of Apache OpenOffice, on Wednesday marked two decades of OpenOffice in [2]a statement : "It’s inspiring to see so many dedicated people from around the world volunteer their time to mentor, contribute code, test issues, moderate mailing lists, help on forums, translations, marketing and more to keep making this great product better and available for millions of users."
OpenOffice, available for macOS, Linux, and Windows at no cost, has been downloaded more than 300m times. It consists of a suite of open source productivity applications including a word processor, spreadsheet, presentation editor, vector graphics editor, math formula editor, and database manager.
Companies toiling away the most on LibreOffice code complain ecosystem is 'beyond utterly broken' [3]READ MORE
Nonetheless, there's been talk of shutting the project down for years. In 2015, Red Hat developer Christian Schaller said OpenOffice was " [4]all but dead ." In 2016, Dennis Hamilton, the volunteer VP of OpenOffice, teased the possibility of [5]shutting the project down .
That same year, Jim Jagielski, Apache Software Foundation (ASF) co-founder and a member of the Apache OpenOffice Project Management Committee, acknowledged that the ASF board recognized OpenOffice was [6]not a healthy project. But he subsequently insisted word of OpenOffice's imminent demise was FUD spread by 'the usual suspects' – presumably LibreOffice sympathizers.
Asked about the LibreOffice board's missive, Jagielski told The Register in an email that the letter came as something of a surprise.
"We were caught quite off guard by the open letter," he said. "There are numerous ways for TDF to contact the AOO project and, from what we can see, none of those were used instead of the somewhat impersonal and semi-confrontational method of an 'Open Letter.'"
Jagielski said both the ASF and the OpenOffice project are contemplating how to respond.
TDF forked the OpenOffice project after Oracle took over Sun a decade ago and then in 2011 [7]donated the OpenOffice code to the ASF. At the time, TDF floated the possibility that the splintered projects might someday be [8]reunited , but that hasn't happened.
Jagielski points out that while the ASF has always been willing to cooperate with TDF and LibreOffice, the relationship has been mostly one-way due to differences in the software licenses governing the two projects. The licensing differences mean that LibreOffice ( [9]Mozilla Public License v2 ) can incorporate OpenOffice (Apache License v2) code changes but OpenOffice cannot do the same with LibreOffice improvements unless the code supports ALv2.
"Needless to say, the donation of OpenOffice to Apache, and its subsequent relicensing to ALv2, was a major benefit to LibreOffice, one that they continue to obtain benefits to this day," explained Jagielski.
"Due to the nature of licensing, unfortunately, AOO is unable to do likewise, that is, use contributions intended for LO and pull them into AOO. We have always requested that TDF encourage all incoming contributions to be dual licensed under the ALv2 and they have consistently refrained from doing so. As such, the relationship is somewhat uni-directional."
Jagielski says the OpenOffice team is glad LibreOffice has been doing well but would like to see code contributions licensed so both projects can benefit. He'd also appreciate an end to the AOO deathwatch.
"We only wish that in addition to strongly encouraging dual licensed contributions, LO would also stop heavily campaigning for Apache OpenOffice's demise," said Jagielski.
"And even if somehow AOO 'died' tomorrow, the idea that we would 'appoint' LibreOffice, or any other singular project, as OpenOffice's successor indicates a lack of understanding about non-profit foundations work. The ASF must remain neutral. There are, after all, other open source office suites available, each with their own audience and niche."
A spokesperson for The Document Foundation, owing to the late hour in Europe when he replied to The Register ’s query, didn’t have anything to add and said the letter speaks for itself. ®
Get our [10]Tech Resources
[1] https://blog.documentfoundation.org/blog/2020/10/12/open-letter-to-apache-openoffice/
[2] https://blogs.apache.org/foundation/entry/the-apache-software-foundation-celebrates3
[3] https://www.theregister.com/2020/07/16/libreoffice_ecosystem_beyond_utterly_broken/
[4] https://blogs.gnome.org/uraeus/2015/08/17/an-open-letter-to-apache-foundation-and-apache-openoffice-team/
[5] https://www.theregister.com/2016/09/02/openoffice_retirement/
[6] https://www.theregister.com/2017/04/28/apache_openoffice_not_dead_yet/
[7] https://web.archive.org/web/20110606030535/https://marketwire.com/press-release/statements-on-openofficeorg-contribution-to-apache-nasdaq-orcl-1521400.htm
[8] https://blog.documentfoundation.org/blog/2011/06/01/statement-about-oracles-move-to-donate-openoffice-org-assets-to-the-apache-foundation/
[9] https://www.libreoffice.org/about-us/licenses
[10] https://whitepapers.theregister.com/
Re: THIS IS AN EX-PROJECT!
You developers and coders really get on my nerves, the bloody PROJECT is dead BUT the application is ten times better than Libre (FUCK OFF) Offices attempt to rule the roost.
Basically, "letter notes that LibreOffice saw more than 15,000 code commits in 2019, compared to 595 for OpenOffice" but leaves out the all important bit about Libre Office installs by default on most Linux OSes, and once that happens, anyone "WHO IS NOT A DEVELOPER OR CODER BUT WANTS TO USE APACHE OPEN OFFICE" will be unable to install it......Thanks (LIBRE) WTF Orrifice.
The END USERS just want to use the fucking thing...........
ALF
Re: THIS IS AN EX-PROJECT!
> will be unable to install it
Yes, LibreOffice burns itself into the CPU and then starts itself at boot-up WHICH NOBODY CAN STOP ANYMORE !!!!1!11!elevenkerzillion!1!!
P.S.: I did that.
Re: THIS IS AN EX-PROJECT!
He's right! I just low-level formatted my disk to check, and a big message with red text came up saying "Deleting everything except libreoffice, mwuhahaha!"
Re: THIS IS AN EX-PROJECT!
"letter notes that LibreOffice saw more than 15,000 code commits in 2019, compared to 595 for OpenOffice"
Oracle have discovered letting LO fix the bugs then bulk merging them into their codebase is easier.
Re: THIS IS AN EX-PROJECT!
It turned me into a newt!??!!
Re: THIS IS AN EX-PROJECT!
You got better.
Re: THIS IS AN EX-PROJECT!
@Al fazed -- got me divided. Horrible argument but a beautiful rant. Have an upvote!
Re: THIS IS AN EX-PROJECT!
I think we found the single developer still committed to Open Office.
Re: THIS IS AN EX-PROJECT!
Its spell checker is just pinning for the ford mondeos.
"We were caught quite off guard"
Yes, you obviously were. You are also apparently caught off guard by the notion of (gasp) actually updating your software.
I use LibreOffice, because for what I need to do, it fits the bill and, at a cost of zero, that bill works fine for me. I also view the frequent updates as a Good Thing (TM).
That said, I also view LibreOffice as a pale copy of what Office 95 would give me if I could still get it working today. Don't get me wrong, I respect the work that has been and still is being put in LibreOffice, but a contender to Microsoft Office it is not.
To read that OpenOffice hasn't had an update in 6 years makes me shudder to think of the state of things. Multiplan, anyone ? Word 4 ?
LibreOffice is obviously the future. Go LibreOffice.
Re: "We were caught quite off guard"
The best reason to put VirtualBox on a Linux system is so one can run a real document suite like Microsoft Office.
Re: "We were caught quite off guard"
That said, I also view LibreOffice as a pale copy of what Office 95 would give me if I could still get it working today.
The only area where office 95 would win is Outlook, and LibreOffice (presumably purposely) doesn't have a mail client.
Word/Excel 95 would be unusable in a modern context if only for the fact it literally couldn't open modern office formats.
While I am sure that if you looked hard enough you could find features that Office95 has that LibreOffice doesn't, if we are honest about it then Libre office has at least 80% of the features and the absence of them will be noticed by well under 20% of users.
Personally, if documents weren't being generated through an MS Office API (and thereby requiring it to be installed) then i'd have LibreOffice on my desktops at work. There's no other reason; a lot of computers have copies of it as it's good at opening the exceptionally weird formats clients sent us without any hassle.
Re: "We were caught quite off guard"
Another area LibreOffice is severeky lacking is Vision equivalent.
Other than that, I use them intergangably with MS Office and my documents, spreadsheets and presentations are OK 95% of the time.
Re: "We were caught quite off guard"
Visio.
Re: "We were caught quite off guard"
Intergangably.
Outlook? Nope
MS keeps updating the Exchange client killing backwards compatibility, so older Outlooks are SOL for the obvious use. Can't even use Ofice 2007's Outlook for current Exchange.
Re: "We were caught quite off guard"
The only thing that I miss running LibreOffice is competent envelope printing. And no, creating a special *envelope* *document* and printing that isn't the same. Besides, it rarely works correctly.
Re: "We were caught quite off guard"
YMMV but I find OpenOffice feature complete and more stable, at least on MacOS, than LibreOffice. It also benefits from the fit and finish provided by IBM. And despite all those many commits, LibreOffice still contains some embarassing long-standing bugs, especially when it comes to handling OOXML documents.
They should get over themselves, switch licences so that a merge is possible. That should also make it easier to offer a commercial version, which, if done properly, could be possible.
In the meantime all the navel gazing is letting Microsoft extend its lead on mobile platforms.
Re: "We were caught quite off guard"
OOXML was forced on the world by Microsoft and has to die, the sooner the better.
Re: "We were caught quite off guard"
At least it is a published specification. I don't like it very much myself but as an ISO document it's likely here to stay and pretending otherwise is like sticking your head in the sand.
Re: "We were caught quite off guard"
"They should get over themselves, switch licences so that a merge is possible."
Easier said than done. They'd have to get agreement from all contributors.
Re: "We were caught quite off guard"
Office 95 was crap apples.
Is Office 97 the one everyone remembers fondly.
Not only was Office 95 spellchecker really bad for anything not AMERICAN ENGLISH, Excel was so basic it was laughable and I say that as someone who hates Excel yet was forced to use it for a few six... seven.. ten years.
Re: "We were caught quite off guard"
I say that as someone who hates Excel
I'm guessing that your hatred for Excel is as a candle guttering feebly in the wind compared to the raging inferno of malevolence that Matt WankCock Hancock feels towards it...
Le mot juste
As the ever-accurate Verity Stob points out [1]here , the OOo abbreviation looks like a deflating balloon.
[1] https://www.theregister.com/2008/04/14/linux_manual/?page=2
Grandstanding
"We were caught quite off guard by the open letter," he said. "There are numerous ways for TDF to contact the AOO project and, from what we can see, none of those were used instead of the somewhat impersonal and semi-confrontational method of an 'Open Letter.'"
All of which ways are easier to ignore.
Re: Grandstanding
To be fair, it's incredibly easy to ignore an open letter. In fact, the only thing easier to ignore is a closed letter.
Possible solution to different licencing...
Jagielski points out that while the ASF has always been willing to cooperate with TDF and LibreOffice, the relationship has been mostly one-way due to differences in the software licenses governing the two projects. The licensing differences mean that LibreOffice (Mozilla Public License v2) can incorporate OpenOffice (Apache License v2) code changes but OpenOffice cannot do the same with LibreOffice improvements unless the code supports ALv2.
Surely the obvious solution is to terminate the current OpenOffice code tree, take a fork of LO, and create a new OO code tree with an ALv2 license. Or is there some (commercial) benefit to ALv2 that is missing from the MPLv2?
Re: Possible solution to different licencing...
I am not an expert, but it looks like they cannot do that. MPL is copylefted, so all forks must also be MPL. AL is permissive, so can be brought into MPL. This was alluded to in the article, with claims that code commits can only be transferred in the one direction. This is why. Another option is to re-license OO under the MPL, which seems to be allowed under ALv2. Of course, that's unlikely!
Re: Possible solution to different licencing...
This can't be done for the same reason that OO can't take the MPL contributions. The MPL contains copyleft clauses similar to GPL, i.e. projects using such source, including any forks, must also be copyleft. The Apache licence is permissive and doesn't put any such constraints on code taken from it. It may seem unfair that LO could take the OO code freely and not give back but that's the difference between the two licences. Yes, it's ironic - or something - that the copyleft principle is intended to force code sharing whilst permissive licences simply facilitate it.
"But he subsequently insisted word of OpenOffice's imminent demise was FUD spread by 'the usual suspects' – presumably LibreOffice sympathizers."
Or anyone who looks at the release schedule?
Open Letter
impersonal and semi-confrontational method of an 'Open Letter.'"
I wouldn't expect anything other than an open letter - presumably one that can be community updated and maintained ?
Although I have LO as the main office suite I keep a copy of OO, if only for old times sake. I see no harm in OO continuing to exist if only to remind LO that an alternative exists should they lurch off in some odd direction which makes me wonder why LO are so concerned.
Money – we know the TDF is trying to find ways to finance the project and the "power" of the OpenOffice.org brand is probably a distraction for "the market". But they'd probably be more successful if they changed their licence and worked towards a merge of the two projects. However, it seems they don't even want to consider that.
"LibreOffice (presumably purposely) doesn't have a mail client."
There was an article some time ago on the LO's blog site arguing for this but the decision seems to have been to stay neutral. A problem with TBird is that the later have gone in for a tabbed interface although the SeaMonkey derivative remains classic although the underpinnings are different AFAIK. Personally I wish the two projects would get together and produce an integrated offering.
From a non-pro user.
Sounds a bit petty, having a go at Open Office. I've gone back to using both. Started maybe 8 years ago with Open Office, worked fine. Later I was prompted by a friend to try Libre. Again, worked fine for my modest needs, but then with every update they - Libre- screwed up/ reduced the colour palette so that original coloured boxes on "Open Office" didn't match, necessitating more unwanted editing and correcting.
Later, the line-drawing became more difficult, because the original and convenient click-select-drag-&-move didn't respond to the mouse. Then, revised lines in documents wouldn't save.
Went back to Open Office at the turn of the year and the revised lines now save and the "click-select-drag-&-move" was restored. I'm much happier and so is my wrist.
I use both but have found Open Office more stable. In office software there tends to a lot of look we added this new feature that will be useful for a whole 10 users. If it has basic word processing, spellcheck, and does basic multipage spreadsheets that meets my needs.
Ok perhaps I'm a bit cranky cause I had to redo my phone after update yesterday. Also another set of phone upgrades this morning over 100 meg.
Probably a license issue
There is a version of OpenOffice for iOS. It is full-fat, does everything the desktop version does, within the limits of a touch rather than GUI device. There is a ‘reader’ version of LibreOffice for iOS. As of the last version I tried, it is much more limited than the OpenOffice port. From the weaseling in the product description, l suspect a problem with the license, which means that the LibreOffice reader is crippled on iOS and probably can’t ever be fixed. Not unless LO changes licenses, something I expect will happen at around the same time as Satan goes ice-skating.
Warning: both versions are ad-supported; the ads in the LO app are incredibly annoying and can’t be turned off, or at least I didn’t work out how to turn them off before wiping the app from my system, while the ads in the OO app are less annoying (hard to be as annoying) and can be turned off by a suitable payment. That got killed on my systems too, I just don’t feel like being subject to ads to use an office suite, and I’m not paying one penny when both Apple and Microsoft supply free, no ads, office suites for iOS which work adequately. At least they work well enough for my needs. Others may differ.
The devs behind the LO ‘reader’ make a big deal of not being affiliated with either LO or OO, but can ‘read’ documents from both. (Gee. Really? Who’d have thunk it?) The devs behind the OO app are less prominent about not actually being OpenOffice, even if searching for ‘Apache OpenOffice’ in the App Store leads directly to their app and offerings from Apache itself are notably missing.
As usual, the major enemy of open source projects are the licensing and the egos of the devs. It means that those of us who just want to get work done use closed-source apps, because they mostly work and are actually available. If the actual devs behind OO and LO put versions on the App Store I feel sure that they would be better. And no ads anywhere. They won’t, and never will. Somehow VLC manages, but not OO or LO. Sigh.
Re: Probably a license issue
Have one of these for telling it like it is.
THIS IS AN EX-PROJECT!
Apache: No no it's not dead, it's, it's restin'! Remarkable project, the OpenOffice, idn'it, ay? Beautiful plumage!
TDF: The plumage don't enter into it. It's stone dead.
Apache: Nononono, no, no! It's resting!
TDF: All right then, if it's restin', I'll wake it up! 'Ello, Mister OpenOffice! I've got a lovely fresh merge request for you if you show...
(Apache hits the server)
Apache: There, it moved!
TDF: No, it didn't, that was you hitting the server!
....
TDF: It's not loadin'! It's passed on! This project is no more! It has ceased to be! It's expired and gone to meet it's maker! It's a stiff! Bereft of life, It rests in peace! If you hadn't nailed it to your brand it'd be pushing up the daisies! It's typesetting processes are now 'istory! It's off the twig! It's kicked the bucket, It's shuffled off it's mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisible!! THIS IS AN EX-PROJECT!