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Expect you'll be back once USA resolves its presidential roadmap

About to say the same, we have a long history with u-turns...

once USA resolves its presidential roadmap

Timing may depend on whether the US settles for just one more civil war or decides to make it the best of three.

> just one more civil war or decides to make it the best of three.

Don't think that changes much.

Los Alamos, Sandia and Livermore are all in Ca or NM.

Oak Ridge is in Tennessee but I don't think they let any locals near the complicated stuff.

F150s with Trump stickers vs Nukes .....

You are US Rep Eric Swalwell and I collect my £5.

Everyone in both parties agrees that dealing with China's trade abuses is long overdue. The question has been in how to do so.

Trump's blunt instrument of bluster and pandering wouldn't be the method any reasonable president would use, but the current situation would still be used as a starting point for negotiations - you wouldn't roll back some of the sanctions on Huawei without getting something in return.

Plus it remains to be seen how much of what the UK was doing around Huawei was US pressure and how much was their own intelligence assessment and/or BoJo's being similar to Trump. I really doubt a change in administration in the US is going to cause the UK to reverse course and reopen their market to Huawei. If for no other reason than pride, not wanting to be seen as a pawn of the US.

So what's the excuse fro crushing Bombardier in Belfast - those evil Canadians?

Still "sovereignty yeah"

By "Trade Abuses" you surely mean "producing competitive producs"?

>cause the UK to reverse course and reopen their market to Huawei.

The UK has this rather arrogant notion that its doing everyone a favor by allowing them to sell products to them. This is all back to front; you need the products because you don't have the national capability to produce this kit, it wasn't a profitiable way to invest money. Companies would like to sell you kit but they have other markets that are less bothersome to work with so why bother with the irritant? If the UK becomes a technological backwater -- 'if' being questionable -- then its no skin of anyone else's nose, its the UK's business.

Look around you for equipment that's designed and made in the UK. Compared to the world I grew up there's bascially nothing -- practically everything you use is imported, not just the 'things' but the underlying technology.

No, I'm talking about trade abuses like forcing companies that want to do business in China to license their IP to Chinese companies as part of a required joint venture.

Exactly this. There is no free trade with China, it is all lopsided. You want access to the Chinese market, you give them what they want first. You try to put conditions on Chinese companies getting access to Western markets, it's unfair and they impose sanctions and/or tariffs.

And when China "licences" IP, it just means they can use it whenever they want - it amounts to theft. Then they copy it and patent it wherever they can get away with it.

That's why the US has gone the way they have, just giving China a taste of its own business practices.

We "don't have the national capability to produce this kit" because it's comically cheaper to import it from China. Because the Chinese economy is massively lower cost. "Lower Cost" here means no employee protections, tiny wages, slave-labour working conditions, no environmental controls, free-and-easy attitude to (foreign) IP, and a massively pro-export trade policy. Since we don't want to live in that kind of society, making things in the UK costs more.

The universal "Made in PRC" label on the bottom of anything in the shops is a massive failure of trade and industry policy, not some magical "efficiency" in China.

"... no employee protections, tiny wages, slave-labour working conditions, no environmental controls, free-and-easy attitude to (foreign) IP, and a massively pro-export trade policy..."

.. Wasnt that what Brexit was all about...?

Yes. Even the accommodating and level-headed EU is now criticising China and their one-sided relationship with the rest of the world.

I am no fan of Trump by any means but do wonder if anyone else would have taken aim at China in the (blunt) way he did. Cameron and Osborne certainly didn't. Alongside the chaos Trump has caused domestically and globally, he may well be remembered as a sort of necessary evil with regard to changing the narrative on China.

Part of the way that had previously been attempted was via the TPP - provide a trade deal linking other major trading partners on both sides of the Pacific that left China on the outside, and if they wanted to get in on it down the road they'd have to agree to make changes.

It ended up becoming a political football and while everyone else signed it the US opted out. Whether it would have been good or bad for the US who knows (at least I don't since I never learned much about it other than the name) but if it had resulted in China making concessions in their unfair practices it would have been worth it for the US even if there were some other less positive consequences.

The way Trump has gone from trying to put together a trade deal with China to practically starting a cold war with them will have long term consequences for the US. Not to mention changes around the Iran agreement, NAFTA, wishy washy statements about NATO and so forth. Even allies doubt the US commitment towards them now due to how quickly things can change when a hostile administration comes to power, so those who are not allies have even less reason to trust that deals they make would be honored beyond the next election. Not to mention how much reason it gives them to hold off on making deals if they think a future administration will give them a better one.

While Trump will eventually be out of office (hopefully sooner rather than later) the sort of voter he appealed to is still going to be around - he seems to have permanently changed the republican party. They're much more likely to nominate someone like Trump or BoJo in 2024 versus someone like Bush or Reagan, so unfortunately the Buchanan/Trump/BoJo party will be around for a while (whether they can get elected again when demographic changes are close to turning important republican strongholds like Texas and Georgia into swing states is another matter)

How about another 4 years of Trump, followed by 2 x 4 years of Trump Jr ?

Chaos? What chaos has "he" cause. Why. because he looked at the world and said "NO!" No more one sided trade with China, No more endless wars that do not resolve anything and had dubious reasoning in the first place, No more ringing our hands over "offending" the Palestinians who will never agree to any peace with Israel, No more looking the other way while the Left in the US lie, cheat and use government agencies and law enforcement as political tools, No more standing idle while Democrat politician make backroom deals to enrich their families. (BTW, he does not need to use his position to enrich his family, they were already rich, unlike the Bidens), No to the globalist who have caused decades of destruction to western economies.

The problem the world has with Trump is he does not play the game that has been going on for the last century that has decimated average families in most of the developed world. The game, that doesn't enrich CEOs, doesn't enrich the already rich, it enriches politicians of a single ideology. Those who LIE about their intentions to "Help the average man". No, they want to keep everyone on the brink of poverty and make them believe if you just give all the power and wealth to them that "they" will take care of you.

No, do not blame Trump because the World is having a childish tantrum because he told them NO!

Making America Grate - Again

China stole so much IP from US companies, anyway?

or have they?

Just wondering how one empire might steal IP from another...

Does the US have evidence they don't want to reveal for fear of alerting the opponent of their capabilities?

Can you ever prove - or disprove - a conspiracy?

Who will win the next cup final?

(sorry for slipping in a bit of reality there.)

>Just wondering how one empire might steal IP from another...

But if Huawei gained access to our Tea growing secrets the whole of British civilisation would be at risk

It this case, the ones with the patents and the ip advantage are Huawei. So Trump banned them from competing.

> So Trump banned them from competing.

But allowed them to continue to participate in Standards making, ie. contribute their IP...

The numbers tell the story.

Huawei is China's version of Bell Labs. Back in the day Bell Labs and its manufacturing affiliate, Western Electric, dominated telecommunications with both basic research and product development. We decided that it was a waste of good profit to spend all this money on R&D so we split up the Bell System into a bunch of regional companies and rebranded Bell Labs as Lucent. Without the phone system subsidy Lucent gradually became unprofitable and eventually it was sold off to Alcatel which eventually got absorbed by Nokia. Employment in these companies dwindled; the money, as ever, was in selling services so the phone network became dominated by cell companies, cable networks and the like, all rather more intent on selling plans than building equipment.

We are to blame for this situation, not the Chinese. They've got the infrastructure and people to develop systems, we don't. The best we can come up with is OpenRAN and a bunch of startup hopefuls. We can also pretend that Nokia and Ericsson are really US companies that just happen to be located in 'friendly' territory.

UK readers will know this type of story well. I used to work in the UK but gave up years ago because of the systematic de-industrialization of the country. The US offered better opportunities at the time because of its size but its been following the UK model; being larger it took longer to fall but now in many areas its a shadow of its former self. Like the UK the US is unable to fully come to terms with what its done, how the financialization of everything has led it to a situation where it only knows how to make money, not product, and like the UK it points to an ever dwindling set of exceptions to convince itself that its not really happening.

Exactly,

There are so many things that we used to do really well that have been destroyed, either by being sold off to foreign companies or stripped via venture capitalist investments.

And much of the issue around Huawei in particular are about some large and very rich incumbents in the US that are seeing their market share being depleted, not just on cost but because they no longer have superior products.

Yes there are all the allegations around security but is not going to be alone in this. In many ways the US is probably as bad if not worse than China because they arrogantly believe that they are "right & good" and everyone else is "bad".

Did Albion exit the Fourth Reich in order to become the fifty-first state of Trumpland?

>become the fifty-first state of Trumpland

That's a ridiculous notion.

Somewhere like Puerto-Rico might get statehood but Britain is at best a territory

Somewhere like Puerto-Rico might get statehood but Britain is at best a territory ........

still a bit of an upgrade from being the unsinkable aircraft carrier from back in WWII :o)

Huawei softly softly exiting Australasia. Long-time key sponsor of an Aussie NRL team gone last week / expect sponsorship of the Aussie prem football league to follow. Enterprise hardware orders in NZ put on hold / rescinded.

Was told earlier this year "no we can't supply firewalls in NZ" - errrrr ok.......

"In November 2018, New Zealand’s intelligence agency barred its largest telecommunications carrier, Sparc, from using Huawei equipment. Likewise, in December 2018, Japan excluded Huawei from its domestic communications infrastructure. Additionally, in August 2019, the Australian government announced a ban on Huawei equipment. We also note that communications service providers in other countries, including BT, Orange, and Deutsche Telekom, are acting to keep Huawei equipment out of their 5G networks."

-US Govt ppl

And the US will «ban» and «sanction» you....

Henri

So, we are losing jobs, and nee critical infrastructure just because trump has a hissy fit.

Remind me when the EU dominated us so?

I work for a large storage provider and a couple of years ago I was called by one of our key African customers to look at what was causing a performance spike on their storage array every day in the early hours of the morning that they could not explain.

We looked at server performance, batch jobs, and processes which were running at the time of the spikes and could find nothing which might be causing the issue.

As part of the RCA we failed the application over to its DR counterpart so that the offending host could be monitored. Sure enough at 2am (In Ethiopia in a dark and dingy DC - maximum fun) the spike happened again on a now quiet system.

After getting our egg head engineers involved they found it was something on the chipset hitting the storage and pulling off some kind of meta data and sending it to (at the time) unknown IP address in China.

The server in question was a Huawei machine and it has some kind of spy chip doing this.

The customer logged a case with the vendor and the machine was duly replaced without comment and without further spikes of sneaky IO subsystem activity.

I saw this with my own two blue eyes.

Is there any truth in the claims that Huawei are insecure, well yes.

All the Chinese people I've ever met, or ever known, are few in number. But each of them I found to be pleasant, civilised, and good humoured. That's not a description in any way applicable to the Chinese Communist Party, the self-serving self-perpetuating clique which dominates China to the extent that it IS China.

The sooner, then, the better that the West stops relying on cheap imports from China and starts re-industrializing. The only thing the repellent creatures at the top of the Chinese Communist Party actually understand is money. The only pressure they ever feel is that from Chinese businesses and industrialists who're losing money. So whilst I'm sorry for anyone who has lost their job at Huawei or is about to do so, I've no regrets about severing ties with a fundamentally corrupt country whose psychopathic leaders are only ever going to moderate their behaviour once the money begins to dry up.

Agreed re the kindness and civility of Chinese people but ultimately they are part of the problem. Unlike in the West many Chinese see an attack on their government as an attack on both them and their country. The old adage that 'people get the government that they deserve' still rings true.

The next to go will be Huawei's smartphone business which will become completely uncompetitive if the sanctions against them aren't lifted. Without modern SoC's Huawei will quickly fall by the wayside since other Chinese companies face no such hurdles.

Who's gonna buy a Huawei smartphone with a 28nm SoC when they can buy another Chinese brand with a modern 5nm SoC?