News: 1596546011

... it's world beating I tell you!

I've been using the German app since it was released over a month ago. It reminds you every couple of weeks that the tracking is still active.

So far everything is green...

Although the Apple API was having problems and wasn't recording accurately for several weeks.

Why can't we simply use the German (or some other) app here?

N.I.H. (not invented here) and BREXIT

Our BREXIT loving Governent can't be seen to be liking anything that an EU member state makes. Well... not if the minister concerned has 1) any hope of someday getting the top job OR 2) won't want to risk getting the sck by PM in Hiding, Mr D (I need my eyes tested) Cummings.

Boris is a mere sock puppet PM. You can almost see Cummings's hand up you know where.

My anonymous friend; you need not have to look that far afield.

[1]Gov.IE – Ireland achieves world first in contact tracing app interoperability – Minister Donnelly

[2]BBC – Contact tracing app 'working in Ireland'

[3]Irish Times – HSE donates contact tracing app to global public health project: ‘Covid Green’ one of two projects selected for Linux Foundation Public Health

[4]Business Insider – Ireland's contact-tracing app has done so well that US states want to use it

(puts on lab coat)

[1] https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/f8654-ireland-achieves-world-first-in-contact-tracing-app-interoperability-minister-donnelly/

[2] https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-53525712

[3] https://www.irishtimes.com/business/health-pharma/hse-donates-contact-tracing-app-to-global-public-health-project-1.4308955

[4] https://www.businessinsider.com/nearform-ireland-covid-19-contact-tracing-app-approached-us-states-2020-7?r=US&IR=T

It's been rolled in Northern Ireland too hasn't it?

And earlier this week the Scottish Government have announced they will implement it too - and the app will work across the Common Travel Area, so up to Wales and England now.

Both the Irish and German tracing apps are open source - why the UK can't just reuse this code is unclear. I will bet it is either politics or complete incompetence which is preventing us having a working app.

Both, considering Hancock is the cock who has his own MP app that was massively flawed and full of security holes and privacy issues.

The privacy issues were by design surely. That central db can be monetised, and why do you think Cummings' pals were picked for the app.

I wouldn't use the upcoming 90 min from DnaNudge* either unless I know first what will happen to my data.

*"a company that analyses people’s DNA from saliva in order to sell them a wristband and smartphone app that will “nudge” them towards healthy food choices"

why the UK can't just reuse this code is unclear

As others have pointed out, a bad case of NIH syndrome and Brexit.

After all, as a Proud Independent Seafaring State[tm] whose governing class appear to prefer ideology over reality, we can't go using the same stuff as those filthy forriners, can we? On top of that, it means that we can't give the job to our mates without going through all that tedious competitive tender stuff.

Taking back control, innit?

Why can't we simply use the German (or some other) app here?

None of them is much use, really. The French one has been downloaded by 2m people, that's about 3% of the population. Fat lot of good that will do.

Not a ringing endorsement for limited and functionality on an Apple (and only sometimes). Long ago I lost interest in such unreliable silo projects. The project became a point scoring contest, unable to do anything useful. Is the Apple app still not knowing the difference between someone who is within a metre and someone who is 10 metres away? Since it only works on Apple products, should I care? I know there is another limited product for Android. It also has limitations on the age of supported devices.

I'll pass and avoid all crowd situations.

Second wave? Its the first wave we all got locked down to avoid. Want society to be resistant to it? People need to catch it. We could of course lock down and everyone slowly get it while our amazing (snigger) healthcare service sends the aging sick back to care homes to spread it and fail even basic covid isolation of patients.

But assuming we isolate until there is nobody viral in the UK, are we going to isolate the country from the world? If not then the virus will be back anyway. We are waiting for a vaccine that takes time to be made and even then we dont know if it will offer any immunity once made.

Meanwhile people are losing their jobs. The very things that pay for our health service to exist. People ignoring lockdown because they are sick of it and want to live their lives. The US just had a wonderful moment of Dr Fauci who speaks into various aspects of peoples lives to reduce transmission refusing to say the protesters trying to ruin and destroy increase transmission-

https://twitter.com/i/status/1289215154899435522

The UK instructions seeming to make as little sense around gatherings.

Dead people don't make a good economy either.

If you hate the EU so much, and hate any form of social structures, and see saving lifes as an attack on your liberties, why don't you move to some hick hard-right town in the USA? You can wear your MAGA hat, and spout your nonsense in public without being laughed at.

It's great to have debates with people with different views, but some people are beyond reason.

[ Seriously, when is El Reg going to get a killfile feature? ]

@AC

"Dead people don't make a good economy either."

And the proportion of dead to infected? And how many are alive because of a health service and welfare support for the masses? And where does the money come from for that?

"If you hate the EU so much"

Thats a great jump from the topic. Wait a minute! Are you my troll? Although my troll doesnt usually bother posting AC and accepts he is known for trolling.

"why don't you move to some hick hard-right town in the USA?"

I dont live in the US.

"It's great to have debates with people with different views, but some people are beyond reason."

Self awareness is the first step. Keep going and your road to recovery will hopefully be successful.

[i]Dead people don't make a good economy either.[/i]

The UK has seen 6 straight weeks in a row where excess mortality is less than the 5 year average, yet there are discussions about shielding everyone over 50! Something else is at play here.

We know that COVID is overwhelmingly more risky for the elderly and those with pre-existing conditions, so it makes a lot more sense to protect vulnerable groups and allow everyone else to take their chances.

Heard immunity may work BUT only if the whole of England was healthy. We are not, so its a fucking bad idea and will kill off most of the poor, who tend to eat poorly due to money and/or time issues. Time issues due to having to work multiple, fucking, low paid jobs.

Some here are starting to sound like the knob that was on the Isle Of Wight ferry the other day "I don't believe in this Covid nonsense", with no mask on. The knob in Wickes on Saturday morning with his mask round his neck and another one with his mask on his chin so he could talk on his fucking mobile. And not to mention the various people that don't bother to cover their nose with the mask.

As mentioned in Private Eye

"Masks do not reduce your oxygen saturation but they can only work if used correctly, and yet many spectacle-wearers steam up and lower the mask below the nose, which is akin to wearing underpants with your penis on the outside."

@steviebuk

"Heard immunity may work BUT only if the whole of England was healthy."

Wrong. But thats good news- https://www.vaccines.gov/basics/work/protection

Community immunity protects everyone. But it’s especially important because some people can’t get vaccinated for certain diseases — such as people with some serious allergies and those with weakened or failing immune systems (like people who have cancer, HIV/AIDS, type 1 diabetes, or other health conditions).

Community immunity is also important for the very small group of people who don’t have a strong immune response from vaccines.

"We are not, so its a fucking bad idea and will kill off most of the poor, who tend to eat poorly due to money and/or time issues"

Thats one way to call the NHS shit. But you are lucky to be wrong again. Mortality from covid tends to be based on vulnerability. Just like most illnesses.

"Some here are starting to sound like the knob that was on the Isle Of Wight ferry the other day "I don't believe in this Covid nonsense", with no mask on."

So not me but you would compare me to someone saying something different. Not great logic to be honest.

"The knob in Wickes on Saturday morning with his mask round his neck and another one with his mask on his chin so he could talk on his fucking mobile."

From what I have heard of public transport you might have met some of the smarter mask wearers. It isnt something normally done in the UK and people dont seem very good at it. Then again people have the lockdown fatigue which was expected and why we should have reduced the lockdown in summer so it can be reintroduced if necessary in the winter but we didnt.

As to the final quote in your comment spot on. Or people pulling them out of the way so they can cough! But these are the people we have to deal with. And whatever approach we use must take such people into account.

If you think herd immunity is achieved by lots of people catching a virus instead of being vaccinated, [1]you're understanding it wrong . Sweden follows a herd immunity policy and has been stuck at 6% for months.

In fact, [2]lasting immunity from Covid-19 may not even exist .

[1] https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/07/24/894148860/without-a-vaccine-researchers-say-herd-immunity-may-never-be-achieved?t=1596561239438

[2] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/12/immunity-to-covid-19-could-be-lost-in-months-uk-study-suggests

We are not, so its a fucking bad idea and will kill off most of the poor, who tend to eat poorly due to money and/or time issues.

How will a virus with a mortality rate of less than 1%, even for 70 year olds, manage to kill "most of the poor" in the UK?

You do realise that half the world's population survives on less than $5 per day, right? So I guess that means, according to you, we can expect nearly everyone in the Indian subcontinent to expire through COVID?

Totally ludicrous assertions from someone that clearly has an ulterior motive.

Death is not the only concern; there's disability, as well. A couple of studies published in JAMA showed that around three quarters of COVID-19 survivors show signs of heart damage similar to that caused by a heart attack. This might explain the "chronic" fatigue and shortness of breath reported by some survivors. Involvement of other organs (kidneys, brain) is suspected as well. And of course, there can be residual lung damage. The big questions are how many survivors are seriously affected and how long their disability will last.

The big questions are how many survivors are seriously affected and how long their disability will last.

Seeing as there have been over 18 million confirmed cases of COVID worldwide and probably 10 to 20 times as many unconfirmed, I think it would be pretty bleeding obvious by now if a significant proportion were left with horrendous after effects.

It only has a mortality rate of 1% when the NHS isn't overwhelmed and that 10% of cases that end up in a hospital stay actually get a hospital stay. Given a broken NHS the mortality rate could be up to 5%. Still fancy your chances?

It only has a mortality rate of 1% when the NHS isn't overwhelmed...

Even at the height of the pandemic, with no track and trace system in place at all, and no useful treatments, the NHS was never overwhelmed. Remember those Nightingale hospitals? Only two out of the seven constructed saw any patients.

So yes, bearing in mind how much more we know about managing the virus and armed with several promising treatments (remdesivir, interferon beta etc. etc.) that can stave off the most dangerous symptoms, I do fancy my chances.

Neither are comparisons with the flu.

"Mild" seems to mean anything not serious enough to go to hospital - but that still includes much worse symptoms than the flu, read some accounts from people who actually went through it if you don't know anyone first-hand.

Want one I know? 7-10 days of temperature going up and down. Nausea, couldn't keep down food - lost one stone in a week (10st woman). Confusion - fell off bed, no short term memory. Tiredness. Fainted once. Some coughing but hardly any respiratory symptom. No hospitalisation. This is an example of mild.

Then there's the long haulers - read this eg. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jun/28/coronavirus-long-haulers-infectious-disease-testing or

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-53084368

It looks like 10+% of symptomatic sufferers take 6 weeks or more to recover. Some still have symptoms after 4 months. Many young people with no underlying health conditions fall within that category.

Some people still experiencing symptoms and getting post-Covid checkups are finding out they had strokes or heart attacks leaving lasting damage.

Folks who want to take their chances because mortality isn't that bad? Idiots.

It was a returning resident in quarantine. Thailand has no home grown cases for 72 days. Stuff is open, and we're enjoying local holidays knowing we're not risking catching the virus.

Countries like Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Myanmar, China are virus free. Malaysia is pretty close to success, Singapore is a laggard.

You keep talking likes it hard to do, but all I ever see in Europe is people walking in the street without a mask. WHY? What the fk is it with you lot that you won't simply wear a mask, everywhere all the time when you're out of your home.

Endless whiney losers justifying why a simple thing that others have done is an impossible thing that can never be done.

You don't need a vaccine, you just need to get rid of it. Then come join the rest of us.

@AC

Well said about the countries having some success removing the virus. Unfortunately the home grown bit is important part. The UK exists with a lot of trade and travel, and those succeeding countries are still reporting new cases.

"You keep talking likes it hard to do, but all I ever see in Europe is people walking in the street without a mask. WHY?"

To give a poor excuse for the UK, we were advised not to because the NHS might run out. Then the army stepped in and it turned out PPE was being sent to the wrong places and not where it was needed.

"You don't need a vaccine, you just need to get rid of it. Then come join the rest of us."

As with the flu its easier said than done. More likely we will either get herd immunity (catch it or a vaccine) or it will be like the flu to which will be the new norm.

"The UK exists with a lot of trade and travel, and those succeeding countries are still reporting new cases."

You're last big outbreak was in Blackburn, Lancashire. Who do you think you're kidding?

@"To give a poor excuse for the UK, we were advised not to because the NHS might run out."

Yes I know, I told you how to make masks from wet wipes, something a nurse here showed me, and the amount of pushback I got was ridiculous. But that was then and this is now, so what's the excuse now?? Why do I see video of everyone out on the streets without their masks, NOW? What's the excuse NOW?

You know in Thailand we have no cases, but we still wear the masks as a precaution. It's just a mask, so why not take the extra precaution just in case?

"As with the flu its easier said than done. More likely we will either get herd immunity (catch it or a vaccine) or it will be like the flu to which will be the new norm."

It's a very deadly disease, lots will die, lots will get sick, hospitals will get overloaded, you will be quarantined. Your exports will be quarantined, your factories will lose key staff, key workers won't be allowed to visit the UK. UK will be shuttered. It's just a mask. Wear the damn mask.

Wear the mask, not just in major cosmopolitan international centers of trade like Blackburn. But also in smaller mega cities, like Carlisle, Stoke on Trent, Kidderminster. Why if we can do it in rural villages like Bangkok, and Shanghai, you can surely scale it up to Ely and Middle Wallop.

@AC

"You're last big outbreak was in Blackburn, Lancashire. Who do you think you're kidding?"

Nobody. The virus free countries keep getting infected. Even hermit kingdom (N.Korea) gets infections. Even if we wipe it out in the UK we will get it again as travel opens up. And it has to open back up as thats how the global supply chains work never mind tourism and business travel.

"Yes I know, I told you how to make masks from wet wipes, something a nurse here showed me, and the amount of pushback I got was ridiculous"

Thats fine, I dont disagree. I remember the west mocking China for the virus before it hit western countries. I remember us all laughing at Italy for counting any death with covid as a covid death, and now we find the NHS did the same!

"You know in Thailand we have no cases"

For now. Until the next traveller brings it. https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/thailand/

"It's a very deadly disease"

Eh? Really? Most people recover with those dying generally being those with underlying health conditions. Deadly yes. Very deadly? Requires perspective.

"It's a very deadly disease, lots will die, lots will get sick, hospitals will get overloaded, you will be quarantined. Your exports will be quarantined, your factories will lose key staff, key workers won't be allowed to visit the UK"

Sounds like lockdown. Except the hospitals are so disorganised that some places get overwhelmed while others have thumbs twiddled.

"It's just a mask. Wear the damn mask."

I have no issues with mask wearing. My issue is a lockdown that doesnt seem to work in a positive way.

> I have no issues with mask wearing. My issue is a lockdown that doesnt seem to work in a positive way.

Which seems to put you into a minority of those who oppose lockdown.

A very good chunk of those who were against lockdown also now seem to be against wearing masks (oh, sorry, muzzles apparently).

The reality is actually fairly simple - either people need to take proper precautions, or we're going to have to lockdown again to try and protect NHS capacity.

Whether through stubbornnes, stupidity or something else, those precautions seem not to be being taken, so we'll ultimately reach a tipping point where the choice is to lockdown, or to have a massive increase in deaths because the NHS can't cope.

The government screwed a lot up in their response, not least through screwing adherence to lockdown by not observing it themselves, but the number of people bleating about the possibility of a lockdown, whilst not wearing masks is unbelievable.

You can see why some might be opposed to your position in the comments given that position is normally explained without benefit of a mask, and usually with some dubious figures about how it's "not that bad"

You don't need a vaccine, you just need to get rid of it. Then come join the rest of us.

You're completely delusional to think this virus will simply disappear. It is endemic in the human population now.

Australia and New Zealand were feeling pretty smug about having so few cases early on but of course that was only because they sealed their borders. Inevitably as you open them again you reimport a whole load more infected people which is why Victoria has been locked down.

The health systems of developing nations are not able to enforce these kinds of policies so there will always be a large reservoir of cases in the wild.

They will open their borders to virus free countries.

"It is endemic in the human population now."

SARS and MERS have no vaccine. It was not developed because they were controlled BY NOT SPREADING THEM. There just aren't enough cases.

So stop spreading a deadly disease and pretending you're doing some sort of good deed. It's trivial to fix.

"The health systems of developing nations are not able to enforce these kinds of policies so there will always be a large reservoir of cases in the wild."

It's a mask, nothing to do with the 'health system', if you don't spread it people stay healthy.

@AC

"SARS and MERS have no vaccine. It was not developed because they were controlled BY NOT SPREADING THEM. There just aren't enough cases."

SARS-CoV-2 is the actual name of covid. It is SARS

SARS and MERS have no vaccine. It was not developed because they were controlled BY NOT SPREADING THEM. There just aren't enough cases.

The big difference between those diseases and COVID is asymptomatic transmission. It was abundantly clear who was suffering from SARS and MERS so isolating them was much easier.

It's a mask, nothing to do with the 'health system', if you don't spread it people stay healthy.

Masks may help to reduce transmission, but they do not prevent it. Also, people from developing countries struggle to get clean drinking water let alone clean masks. Hence you will always have a reservoir of cases ready to reinfect disease-free countries.

> Masks may help to reduce transmission, but they do not prevent it. Also, people from developing countries struggle to get clean drinking water let alone clean masks. Hence you will always have a reservoir of cases ready to reinfect disease-free countries.

Some might suggest then, that given that ever-present reservoir of cases, it'd be wise to take steps that reduce transmission, like wearing a fucking mask.

Want society to be resistant to it? People need to catch it.

You promote the Swedish approach. [1]It doesn't work good either to keep people alive or keeping jobs safe.

[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/07/business/sweden-economy-coronavirus.html

@Potemkine!

Unfortunately that article is either biased or bollox. I lean toward it being biased as the information is out there. Sweden in not locking down has fared better than countries imposing strict lockdowns- https://www.politico.eu/article/sweden-coronavirus-lockdown-paradox/

And yes there will be an impact on jobs when the rest of the world packs up and stops working.

No offence, but your comment makes you sound like a c*nt.

@Hubert Cumberdale

"No offence, but your comment makes you sound like a c*nt."

Maybe. I guess it depends where you stand on the opinion which is understandable. However it doesnt invalidate the comment at all does it? Even if you dont like how it sounds.

People need to catch it.

You first, then.

a big thumbs up, and thanks for saying it.

If a rule or piece of local bureaucracy gets in the way of this, let NHSX know and Capita Sopra Serco will fix it for you.

There, FTFY.

If a rule or piece of local bureaucracy gets in the way of this, let NHSX know and Serco will charge you 1000s to fix it for you.

If a rule or piece of local bureaucracy gets in the way of this, let NHSX know and Serco will charge you 1000s to write a propsal for a specification for a pie in the sky system that might in a year of sundays fix it for you.

That's more like the reality. No fixes will come at a cost under eight figures.

If a rule or piece of local bureaucracy gets in the way of this, let NHSX know and Serco and its previous failings will be found to be the root cause of that too...

... one assumes that somewhere, there is a community of NHS-based fax-using pager-enthusiasts annoyed that recent rules and or bureaucracy are making it hard to work in the efficient and minimal way they are used to, and resent being pushed towards unwanted email and smartphone "solutions" instead. So, if a rule or piece of local bureaucracy gets in the way ... :-)

Did the model assume 100% compliance by those tested and traced? Fiddling with inputs and publishing scary papers based on outputs from non-validated models makes good copy but doesn't add anything to the sum of human knowledge - ultimately it is just computational game. Second waves are already occurring in some countries (even where mask wearing is the norm) - this shouldn't be about stopping the second wave but keeping it at levels the NHS can cope with (unless the plan is to wait for a vaccine - but that is going to be an expensive and open ended wait) .

T&T is the only one tool - we could provide postcode alerts with infection rates, public transport infection alerts - inform us all where and when so we can decide for ourselves the likelihood of exposure and isolate accordingly. At the moment the figures we get to see are out of date and the granularity sucks (local authority level).

> inform us all where and when so we can decide for ourselves the likelihood of exposure and isolate accordingly.

Haven't you see the pictures from the pubs and the southern english beaches?

You may be able to make a good judgement call, but the UK in general are morons (and thanks to brexit, the non-morons are quickly leaving the sinking ship)

There will always be morons. Legislating for morons is a downward spiral and will create the dystopian nightmare described in many recent teen novels.

[T]he UK in general are morons ....

Yanks and Brits really are cousins, aren't they? Except that we take it one step further with Florida. And Texas. And come to think of it, pretty much the entire South. Where's your Florida? Is it Spain? ;-)