News: 1594643170

> Instead, Cupertino advises users to rely on the built-in features of macOS, such as limiting what applications have access to the webcam through System Preferences. It also suggests users keep an eye out for the green camera indicator light.

Concern about those things not being trustworthy/reliable is exactly why covers exist. Most RAT's include functionality to do it, and "oh it only affects Windows" isn't exactly a reliable risk-assessment, particularly when there are RATs for most platforms. Yes, Apple has mitigations in place, but the way you find out they aren't enough is retrospectively...

What Apple _should_ do, is design a sliding cover into future models

Next Mac OS update: removal of the green light so that you can not watch us watching you to help make our displays even thinner.

We've found through focus groups that people prefer these $100 bluetooth webcam lights that come in a snazzy case to charge them, so we think embedded LEDs are a thing of the past

"What Apple _should_ do, is design a sliding cover into future models"

Agreed. If Dell can put in a sliding shutter and get it right on their newer laptops, then Apple should be able to as well.

From a quick search of the tuberwebs, "...the new MacBook Pro's multi-channel ambient light sensor is located next to the built-in FaceTime HD camera...", so it looks like it's either actually that close, hiding in the same few mm of the camera for "aesthetics", or maybe it's actually using the camera itself.

Ok, why the downvote? Did I use a contraction wrong, or was it my lack of citing the source?

Who cares? If you're worried about the downvotes on El Reg, you're in the wrong place!

I'm not worried about getting it, I just would like to know the reason for it.

I knew the reasons when I threw my hat into the pineapple pizza discussion a few weeks back, but this one makes me wonder...

Beer, because it sure feels like 5:00, and yet I can't have one till then.

If you're watch isn't telling the right time, then it's time to take a hammer to it! It's always beer time!

It's an apple article and you praised Dell.

Plus, some people have nothing better to do than carpet-bomb the downvote button.

"What Apple _should_ do, is design a sliding cover into future models"

Or at the very least carve out enough space on the front edge of the case so that it doesn't cause damage.

Not that I use those covers myself - if you find anything more interesting on my webcams than a fat old geek staring myopically at the laptop screen, please let me know!

"Or at the very least carve out enough space on the front edge of the case so that it doesn't cause damage."

There isn't space at the front edge of the case, they use that space, very effectively, for a decent sized trackpad.

I've used a section of a post it note for a very long time, it's very thin, very effective, incredibly cheap, available at all good offices...

And it you aren't enabling the webcam frequently then it lasts for ages as well.

My Mac is nearly permanently closed because it's connected to an external screen. Notebooks are not ideal on desks at the best of times, but Macs are some of the worst because of the sharp edges and limited tilt the screen. A mate of mine has some kind of portable "music stand" for using his on a desk when travelling.

Well said, sir.

Same myopic and excess lard* issues here:-)

*Reducing thanks to new-ish pushbike...don't panic folks - short journeys only, generally to the office/bottle-o/package store.

You're not thinking different enough... behold, the Apple Balaclava!

(...ponders for a few moments... )

Scratch that. What would Steve do? Yes, an Apple Turtleneck... but with an extra long neck that you can roll up to hide your face.

I should work in marketing! :D

"What Apple _should_ do, is design a sliding cover into future models"

And then sue Dell and Lenovo for patent infringement? It might just work!!!

"Instead, Cupertino advises users to rely on the built-in features of macOS, such as limiting what applications have access to the webcam through System Preferences. It also suggests users keep an eye out for the green camera indicator light."

Strip of black electrical tape does wonders. Of course, not buying it in the first place saves you all sorts of tears.

... not buying it in the first place saves you all sorts of tears.

Finally !!!

Have one on me --->

Yes, you can have it now .

Even if it is not pub-o'clock yet.

O.

Most RAT's include functionality to do it

All Macs introduced after 2008 have the LED hardwired to the power lead to the camera module. There is no separate logic between the two any more.

That's why that [1]famous research from the Johns Hopkins University from 2013 (AKA iSeeYou) only managed to enable the camera without enabling the LED on models up to 2008. It's also why RATs and similar malware that target the Mac warn you that the light will come on when you turn on your victim's camera.

I have been fascinated by this topic for years (even though I don't work in cybersecurity any more) so if you have evidence that it can still work on newer models or that there are RATs out there that can do this I would be very interested to know more about it.

[1] https://papers.put.as/papers/macosx/2013/camera.pdf

Another approach to avoiding the green light is rather than filming, you take a still every 30 seconds or so. Just enough to make the green light flicker - and if your laptop is off to the side like mine, you'd never notice. Not sure if that concept has ever been used in the wild, but seems feasible.

Good point, I just tried with a few apps to see how quickly I could toggle the camera. Not quick enough so I'd probably need to experiment with building my own app to talk directly to the camera. As is typical for LEDs, the switch time is milliseconds so you might not notice.

This could be something that's relatively easy for Apple to reduce the risk of. If they put a simple capacitator between the power line and the LED, the light would probably stay on for a few seconds after the camera has switched off. Just two seconds would be long enough to make surreptitious attempts at taking many quick photos in succession very noticeable as the LED would be permanently on.

There's something very impressive about reliably working with such tight build tolerances.

My Land Rover Defender has build tolerances of closer to 0.1m!

Critical bits of your LRD are built to tolerances probably better than 1/50mm. Things like big end bearings.

The problem here is not the tolerance,it's that in pursuit of thinness, the gap has been made too small to deal with even fair sized grit particles. The tolerance on the gap doesn't matter, unless of course the individual tolerances add up to a negative gap.

Bet your Land Rover Defender doesn't break if someone puts 0.2mm of plastic over a random point on the dash. :)

I'm also willing to bet your LRD has tolerances in micrometers in a few places like e.g. the pistons. :)

Genuine question - who is right? 0.1mm is 4/1000 of an inch. How many parts on an old Land Rover are really toleranced better than that? You mentioned the pistons, but after a few decades of wear, are they still toleranced to better than 4/1000?

Most engineering from the Fifties had quite loose tolerances as that was the best that the machine-tools of the day could do. Land Rovers certainly date from this time, so the number of parts that really need tolerances better than 1/1000 (the "few microns" mentioned by another commentator) might be rather small.

Not according to my 1940s copy of Machinery's Handbook (which is still useful if you ever see old stuff).

Pistons perhaps only 0.002" on the ring lands, but big ends and main bearings need to be toleranced to around 0.001". A number of parts such as keyways and gears are toleranced +0 -0.001".

A lot of parts in those days were finished very accurately with either reamers or centreless grinders, with the machine tools used for the relatively rough cuts.

Remember that in WW2 things like the Merlin engine were produced in what we would now consider car levels of production, and precision advanced rapidly.

"Bet your Land Rover Defender doesn't break if someone puts 0.2mm of plastic over a random point on the dash."

Maybe if that random point on the dash happens to be over the oil indicator light :)

"My Land Rover Defender has build tolerances of closer to 0.1m!"

You meant inches, Shirley?

90.

110.

These are inches.

LR are legendary for it. I had my MGB in a bodyshop once, where it was complimented on its panel gaps.

Also in was a Range Rover. They'd had to get the insurance assessor in before they started work, so they'd have an independant witness to how abysmally shite the panel gaps were before they touched it.

This thread has reminded me of a joke I heard years ago.

Quality assessment engineers from Land Rover and Mercedes met at a conference, and were comparing notes. Specifically, on how they assessed the fit and seal of door/window trims.

"What we do," said the Mercedes guy, "is we take a car off the end of the production line and shut a cat in it on a Monday evening, with all the windows closed. If the cat has suffocated when we check on it Tuesday morning, the seals on our design are performing to specification and the car is worthy of our reputation."

"That's uncanny!" blurted his LR counterpart, "We have something so similar! We take a Discovery off the end of the line and shut a cat in it, and the car is good to go if the cat hasn't escaped by the morning..."

You got one of the good ones then!

Bollox to Apple, they were in recent consideration for a professional device, but then I discovered that "Pro" is no longer a range for people who work for living, merely a wannabee label for label-conscious, vacuous consumers.

So I decided to buy a tough but lite and very powerful Thinkpad and which coincidentally comes with an in-built sliding webcam shutter called the ThinkShutter.

Apple are in danger of becoming irrelevant to the professional user if they carry on at this rate.

What's wrong with a bit of electrical tape?

Electrical tape is for wimps. Real men use gaffer tape.

Though to be fair, it can sometimes leave a residue...

I have a colleague who is also in a band, he re-uses his gaffer tape when possible!

I use post-it notes.

The adhesive.

Real hackers use duct tape. But given Apple's designs, Apple engineers will probably find a way to destroy half the universe should a piece of duct tape ever get within 6 cm of a Macbook.

I've seen various people selling vinyl overlays for MacBook keyboards and touchpads - some just to make it look pretty, some with the keyboard commands for things like Photoshop.

That's got to bugger up the 0.1mm tolerance!

You are correct! Give that man a cigar! I see knock on issues with these keyboard condoms... That eats up the tolerance, and keeps the lid from closing properly, and the computer doesn't sleep, then the battery tends to go next...

My ankle hurts when I walk, but if I limp slightly, then my ankle doesn't hurt so much, but then my knee hurts etc...

Just guessing here that the overlays are:

A - Softer because they're designed to be flexible enough not to press several keys at a time, and;

B - Spreading any pressure over a wider area than a half-inch piece of hard plastic that sits right at the edge of a thin sheet of glass.

Everyone seems to be confusing tolerance with fit. Toleance is a measure of how much (notionally), an object may depart from its designed dimension. It is an allowance, not a physical thing. A fit, on the other hand is a physical relationship between two parts. It can be a clearance fit, or an interferance fit. A clearnce if you want a gap and an interferance were you want an intimate relationship. A nail driven into a piece of wood is an interference fit. A bolt in a hole is a clearance fit. between a screen and a case, you hope for an adequate clearnce fit. The tolerance on each part determines which of the two states, it is

Everyone seems to be confusing tolerance with fit.

Good man!

Was about to post the very same comment.

Have one on me too --->

Of course, you can also have it now.

O.

Seconded. Was just about to say similar, but took the unusual step of reading all posts first!

IMO, one designs using tolerances that produce the required fit, not the other way around....that's just bodgery.

If the tolerance on Macbok Pro body-screen distance is within 0.1mm, it's clear from mine that either the manufacturing isn't living up to that, or they've deliberately designed it so that the screen touches the keytips.

Apple used to send brown plastic tape to close the box of parts being returned. They work extremely well for covering the camera. Free, and always extra strips in the box. Used them in multiple customers who had a "security" problem in their workplace. As above, I don't know an app to turn on the camera remotely (probably because I haven't looked.