News: 1590675611

I gather that the tracers are recruited, employed, and trained by Serco.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2013/dec/19/offender-electronic-tagging-serco-repay-68m-overcharging

One hopes there has been a change of culture since then.

I'm going to avoid the usual 'what could possibly go wrong' comment because we really need a system that works, in the sense of allowing local measures to deal with clusters, to avoid economic meltdown.

Where are Crapita? They have to be in there somewhere, Shirley?

In a decidedly low-tech scheme, the plan is for those testing positive for COVID-19 to get phone calls from NHS tracers, who will ask them who they have been in contact with.

AIUI the "NHS tracer" will not tell you who it is that you have been (or may have been) in contact with that has reported developing symptoms. On the strength of that you are supposed to tell the "NHS tracer" the names and contact info for any others with whom you have been in contact since.

Put another way any 'phone call from an "NHS tracer" has to be taken at face value without any obvious means of verifying that the caller is indeed an "NHS tracer".

OTOH anyone claiming to be from my bank has to be ignored along with any other caller with suspect credentials.

No wonder the Health Secretary was laughing...

TWAT

'Ring Ring' - 'Contact tracing?' - 'Yes - i'm really ill, cough, fever, can't taste anything' - 'Contacts? - let's think - there was that bloke I met with his wife and kid in Barnard Castle, and then when I was on the cliff's at Dover there as this dodgy looking geezer....'

Verification: OK daft question (this is Serco) why not...

Issue each call a unique case number

If caller asks for verification, advise caller to ring off, ring number listed on Web site and on posters, go thru' the menu and give the case number

System then connects caller to advisor who has the relevant details including the time that the caller rang off...

I wonder if this will ever be used as a stitch up to someone that someone else doesn't like.

It is a 14 day quarantine - so, i assume there must be a challenge process, or confirmation process.

Don't make assumptions about how Johnson's gang of clowns organise things.

you'd think so, but my bank can't even handle that!

In a decidedly low-tech scheme, the plan is for those testing positive for COVID-19 to get phone calls from NHS tracers, who will ask them who they have been in contact with.

Oh God, this means that the NHS tracing scheme is going to be riddled with bugs and open to abuse too.

Pretend NHS tracers, griefers who finger anybody they don't like, and contacts with unknown names or phone numbers who would need actual legwork to track down just for starters.

And since most of the tracers are being paid near minimum wage, and probably have to meet some sort of targets, they are going to mess up big time too. Just count the ways - they are going to be getting names wrong, phoning the wrong people, misunderstanding what they are told, gaming whatever target system they have to meet (let's hope it isn't "you have to lock down an average of fifty people a day to keep your job") etc.

My Wife is a track and tracer and is employed by the NHS and is certainly not doing it at at minimum wage. There are also no targets.

"In a decidedly low-tech scheme, the plan is for those testing positive for COVID-19 to get phone calls from NHS tracers, who will ask them who they have been in contact with [GOOD]. Any of those contacts deemed to be at risk will be advised to self-isolate for 14 days even if they are not ill [BAD]"

IMHO, the basic contact tracing is a good thing. Normally done face to face (or mask to mask) to emphasize the gravity of the situation. A phone call is weaker, but its still contact tracing.

But you don't call those contacts and ask then to self isolate for 14 days. You slap them with a mandatory mask wearing "a mask is on its way, wear it":, and mandatory test order "GO GET TESTED HERE AT X TIME T", and orders with clear cut rules they *have* to follow. They're not the experts in disease control, you are, *you* dictate to *them* the quarantine rules they are *required* to follow so its crystal clear the gravity of the situation. If they test positive quarantine their ass too.

I assume you mandatory quarantine the infected person? Otherwise its just people talking on phones.

You stick them in a quarantine center, with clear orders and food and tv? In Thailand these are nice >3 star hotels they've taken over, the person has to stay in their rooms, but food towels and linen are delivered. The quarantined person complains about too much plastic food boxes spoiling the environment. which shows you the low level of complaints. "Ooo the sushi I got today didn't have the proper fatty tuna, only regular tuna" blah blah blah.

You understand why I have zero doubts about going out to a restaurant in Thailand now. I'm even booking my trips for the year. Confident in the handling of the virus. Not some sort of vague fluffy 'advice'. I know that if a person is infected, they are in quarantine, and their contacts are being tested and quarantined as needed.

You're the leader Boris, so lead. Don't take shit from the back benchers, fix it, clear the virus, end it, move on with confidence. Thatcher not Major.

Another point. Thinking of who I've been in contact with in the past two weeks:

Well, I walked to the town centre, visited Sainsburys, and took the bus back with my shopping. I have the Apple Pay log of my bus fare, which will enable them to trace which bus I was on. They will be able to get the driver, but the other passenger on the bus? Probably not. The other people in Sainsburys?

When I was taking my rubbish out at lunch time, the post man came out of the neighbouring property and briefly ended up about a meter away from me.

To be fair - the 'definition' of contact is <2 metres for >15 minutes, so unless there's more to your innocent brush past the postman than you are admitting.....

However as the most likely route of infection is from an infected surface to victims hand to victims face/food, the likelihood of knowing who sneezed on said surface two hours ago is almost nil.

At least a location based app could send enough data to identify sufferers who were at the same place and notify anyone else who was there to go and get tested.

"However as the most likely route of infection is from an infected surface"

Are you sure? I thought droplet and aerosol were now considered the main routes.

I am sure. It is the same for common colds and seasonal 'flu.

Fomites (infection vectors from secretions deposited on surfaces) are overwhelmingly the principal means of transmission other than being in close proximity (when outdoors not the 2 metre silliness) with an infected person who is coughing, sneezing, or wheezing.

The point being, rather than all the current expensive and futile nonsense two pieces of advice ought be reiterated frequently without additional messages causing confusion: hand hygiene and stay indoors if a cough etc. develops until you are certain it is not Covid-19 infection.

A simple measure potentially far more cost-effective than contact tracing is free of charge issuance to everybody of containers of anti-viral hand-gel which can be carried in pockets.

Given how hard many members of the public have found complying with the existing rules, expecting a mandatory quarantine to be effective is horribly optimistic.

Moving them to another location for that quarantine even more so. People have dependents and other commitments; being in quarantine is bad enough, being entirely unavailable means that other arrangements would be required, at additional cost and difficulty.

The UK Government approach has always been one of preferring common sense and light touch control, rather than a heavy handed authoritarian approach. While the benefits of both approaches can be debated and the effectiveness of both (particularly in a cultural context) will vary, I am definitely more welcoming to the less authoritarian option.

My issue with this initiative is that I just don't trust in Dido or her capabilities.

Sort of. The problem is that a contact is assumed to be an infection.

Just a little while ago when various testing methods were being assessed and dismissed because they didn't meet quality criteria in terms of false negatives and/or positives. What quality criteria have been attached to this process? What impact assessment has been made on the consequences of people spending time in self-isolation for 14 days as a result of the false positives which will occur?

In a couple of weeks time we're going to hear the first complaints. In about six weeks time we'll be hearing the complaints from those who've gone through two periods of self-isolation with no symptoms. In eight weeks or so the whole shambles will be thoroughly discredited unless Hancock does what should be blindingly obvious now: test all contacts, with an initial isolation needed only until the test result is available and continued isolation only for positive responses.

But you don't call those contacts and ask then to self isolate for 14 days. You slap them with a mandatory mask wearing "a mask is on its way, wear it":, and mandatory test order "GO GET TESTED HERE AT X TIME T", and orders with clear cut rules they *have* to follow. They're not the experts in disease control, you are, *you* dictate to *them* the quarantine rules they are *required* to follow so its crystal clear the gravity of the situation. If they test positive quarantine their ass too.

Great. So I can get anyone I don't like locked up for two weeks simply by giving their name. That could be fun.

Certainly not Churchill.

that's an anagram of Baroness Dido Harding

just saying.

Hop over to Mumsnet - a whole thread devoted to contact tracers who are basically forming a self-supporting user community to try and get on with the task they are given, in the absence of meaningful training or support from their employer.

Hop over to Mumsnet - a whole thread devoted to contact tracers who are basically forming a self-supporting user community to try and get on with the task they are given, in the absence of meaningful training or support from their employer.

Dear God, they've given the job of contact tracing to Mumsnet users? We're all doomed. They'll spend all their time diagnosing each other with PTSD and anxiety and accusing everyone they have to contact of being a narcissist.

Phone rings

Voice: Hello Mr Humbug, the is NHS Track and Trace. You have been in contact with a known COVID-19 case and must stay home for two weeks.

Me: Gosh how distressing, Can you verify that you're from NHS track and Trace?

Voice: You can check the number I'm calling from.

Me: But numbers can be spoofed. Anyway, who was I in contact with?

Voice: I can't tell you that.

Me: OK then, where and when was I in contact with them?

Voice: I can't tell you that either.

Me: So you want me to stay home for 14 days on the word of an unknown caller who can't verify any of the information they are telling me?

Voice: Yes, it's very important that you do.

Me: Goodbye.

It's all going to go so well, isn't it?

This smacks of Noddy and Big Ears developing an app, finding out is is not much good and then getting Mr Plod in to enforce it anyway.

Of course it still won't work but covid 19!

I have a feeling there is more than one TWAT involved in all of this.

Welcome to the New Normal™

What's Hancock's number?

He is probably the best of them but he has a resting Nazi face.

Tories with teeth should not be a thing while I miss my dentist more than than my youth.

You sound very angry and unhappy. Are you ok? Would it help if we found you professional assistance?

Arnold Rimmer once confessed he thought he was a eunuch in previous life as when he was in the presence of a group of women, he had the overwhelming urge to bathe them in warm olive oil. Lister stated he had that urge too, so it was nothing to do with past lives.

The Matt Hancock urge is a similar urge.

i.e. more likely a natural human urge, and not a personal affliction.

Plus, how much of the NHS Mental Health budget would be squandered trying to cure everyone of that...

So you get a positive result on a test, quick WhatsApp to your friends "Who wants another two weeks off on full pay?"

End up reading off a long list of names and numbers to the friendly NHS Ttrack and Trace person. Yes this will go well.

I also heard a report on the radio earlier that the plan is to hold onto all contacts data for 20 years for 'research purposes'.

"the plan is to hold onto all contacts data for 20 years for 'research purposes'"

I hope somebody finds written proof of this soon. This government has already lost the trust of the public, this is another nail in the coffin.

Can we storm Parliament and undertake a revolution? Can't wait for the next General Election, the country won't be here in four years.

Guardian

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/28/nhs-will-keep-personal-data-of-people-with-coronavirus-for-20-years--uk-test-and-trace-programme

Telegraph (paywall so can't read it)

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2020/05/28/nhs-fire-plans-store-track-trace-data-20-years/

New Statesman

https://tech.newstatesman.com/coronavirus/nhs-test-and-trace-privacy-doc-throws-doubt-on-apps-anonymity-claims

Expect to see The Register take on it soon.

So you get a positive result on a test, quick WhatsApp to your friends "Who wants another two weeks off on full pay?"

Even better, this can be repeated indefinitely because there's currently no guarantee that a bout of COVID confers immunity. You will therefore be told to self-isolate even if you've had the illness in the past.

Baroness Dildo Hardon has been appointed as Chair of NHS Improvement for 4 years from 30 October 2017.

The appointment will involve a time commitment of 2 to 3 days per week. Remuneration for the role will be at a rate of £63,000 per annum.

https://publicappointments.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/appointment/chair-nhs-improvement/

Nice gig if you can get it!

Be interested in knowing how they're going to contact me, I'm ex-directory and both my mobile and landline reject withheld numbers - a consequence of my details being leaked by Talk Talk...

Instead of all this nonsense why don't these people do something guaranteed to be helpful? I propose free of charge issuance to every person of pocket containers of anti-viral hand gel. Too simple perhaps?

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On a different note, I foresee a great drop in prevalence of head lice among school children now that intimacy is forbidden. Perhaps, that will come to be known as Johnson's greatest contribution to public health.

pay someone to come up with this 'app' or did they just grab some code off sourceforge , stick a shiney label around it then claim it was the greatest thing ever?