News: 1586333705

CD Changer, steering wheel controls, set up for car model, amp, special speakers, built in satnav.

Comes up with car brand on screen, it works, and I am supposed the rip the WHOLE lot out and replace with something else?

We do not al regularly replace cars, I have had 2 in over 14 years. Buy what you really want and look after it than a random box on wheels.

You can blame the manufacturers partially for that one. The gave up on DAB and then had to backtrack and start again, so a lot of cars that could have had DAB didn’t. Black spots are still an issue in coverage, even in large cities and towns.

I'm screwed if that's the case. My radio is the digital heart of the car. It controls eveything from radio (duh!) to locks, lights, alarm, speedo display. 2 years ago it started hanging when I entered certain post-codes into the sat-nav, at which point the screen went black for a few minutes, then entered a repeating reboot that could last minutes or hours if left to it's own devices*. After a year of to-ing and fro-ing with the dealership they finally agreed to replace the radio with a new one, I had to wait 2 months for it to arrive from Italy. I went to pick up the car after they did the swap, put my office post-code into it... and hang.. reboot... hang... etc. Turns out every model of this radio has the same fault, and it's never been fixed, and there's no intention to bring out a revised model. The car at this point was 3 years old. The only solution if I want my car to remain usable is to not use the sat-nav. The radio is DAB, but it's rubbish constantly cutting out unless the car is stationary.

*There is a ridiculous method for hard rebooting the radio. Turn off the ignition for 30 secs, open the passenger** door for 30 secs, close it for 30 secs, open it again for 30 secs, close it and turn on the ignition.

**I assume that it has to be the passenger door cos in Italy the driver is on the left, but they kept the hard reset mechanism on the left hand side despite moving the steering and the controls to the right for the UK market.

That reset method seems to be the normal method for getting kids in the car.

We ready? Ignition on. Daddy I forgot something - ignition off - opens door -gets teddy bear - closes door - opens door cause he is a kid - ignition on (then repeat for each child/wife in the car)

I'd be handing the car back as not fit for purpose. Then see how motivated they are to replace it.

2 things stopped that. Time and money. The dealership changed hands due to going bust. It took a year of legal back-and-forths to get to the point where they agreed to swap the radio for a new one.

Please name and shame. Fiat, Ferrari, Lancia, Lambo, Alfa, Maserati...?

Fiat Chrysler Group

Combining Italian and US engineering.

Talk about a dog shit sandwich.

Sheez.

*There is a ridiculous method for hard rebooting the radio. Turn off the ignition for 30 secs, open the passenger** door for 30 secs, close it for 30 secs, open it again for 30 secs, close it and turn on the ignition.

Sure they're not winding you up?

Like when i told the users they had backspaces in their passwords :)

You can get pretty decent DAB adapters for cars, I've got one from Aldi because my 2012 NIssan doesn't have DAB when my 2008 Mini did. No idea why cars built 12 years after DAB became reasonably widespread still didn't have it built in.

With regards to blackspots, there's one on the M6 close to Lancaster University, always seems to drop out at a fairly important line in The Archers...

"With regards to blackspots, there's one on the M6 close to Lancaster University,.."

Here are three more.

Wales, Scotland and (semi) Rural England.

> ....Comes up with car brand on screen, it works,....

Yes, but where we are you have to drive 100 miles before you can pick up a DAB signal at all, making the box on wheels the more important part.

What is it with governments' overwhelming desires to switch things off rather than switching things on?

That's ironic, our local community radio station handed back their DAB licence and has just been given the necessary permissions to start broadcasting on FM

DAB coverage is a real problem. Across large parts of the country, the DAB signal is patchy, even along major roads. None of the receivers that use a whip antenna work indoors here (Devon), and even with an external antenna, signal quality is variable; this s compounded by the limited range of receivers that have an external antenna connector.. In the cars, which have modern, factory-fit DAB radios, DAB stations drop out regularly.

If Ofcom and the broadcasters want to promote a wholesale switch to DAB, the ball’s in their court to improve signal coverage.

If you're prepared to have static equipment connected to an external antenna, you're better off using a TV - the sound quality will be much better. If you need something portable, a mobile phone streaming via the Internet will be more reliable than a typical portable DAB receiver and probably have a similar battery life. The USP of DAB seems to be what you already have, only worse .

But radio isn't static like a TV set, you tend to take it to different places around the house to listen to while doing other things.

DAB is like a massive leap backwards in time, to before the transistor radio revolution in the 60s. You have bulky power hungry sets, poor reception, and most stations in mono ffs.

Where I live DAB is a total flop. Living in a radio shadow means that everyone round here has to use Freesat or Sky. We have one mobile operator, EE and even smart meters struggle to work.

So let Ofcom "force" people to DAB. We won't be moving unless Ofcom can overcome the laws of physics.

"even smart meters struggle to work........

.....unless Ofcom can overcome the laws of physics."

With my usual cynics hat on, I bet the laws of physics are no deterrent to either Ofcom or the utility providers, who are determined everyone will have a smart meter whether it works or not.

I kind of want a James Doohan as Scotty icon for any posts concerning the laws of physics BTW.

Yeah come on El Reg , give us a "Ye cannae defy the law of physics, captain!" icon!

The problem is that DAB uses Band 3 VHF around 200Mhz which means you need more transmitters for a good signal than with FM on 100Mhz as its more easily absorbed by ground clutter and doesn't travel around obstacles as easily. Unfortunately it would appear that Ofcom think because DAB is digital the laws of physics don't apply so it doesn't need any extra TX.

Commercial stations have already [1]drastically reduced local content as Ofcom relaxed the rules.

We're heading for the biggest economic depression in generations and advertising revenue is falling through the floor. If Ofcom is expecting queues around the block to invest in small local radio stations, it shows at least that their grasp of the broadcasting landscape is consistent.

[1] https://pressgazette.co.uk/local-commercial-radio-cuts-will-add-to-serious-decline-in-local-news-for-uk-mps-say/

These articles always seem to take the same tone:

DAB is killing FM!

Which is patent nonsense, FM will continue even after the apocalypse means there's no one to listen any more.

I like DAB, sure I only listen to 6 Music, but I don't have infinite listening time.

I get a good signal out in the country, much better than cell signal, and the quality is excellent.

YMMV however, it's still radio after all.

Well I did mention apocalypse>

"Digital" listening numbers include people listening on all digital platforms, not just DAB, so that includes internet streaming which is what most people do, and DVB-A, where you listen to radio on your TV.

When they say it has 90% coverage, it means they cover 90% of households. It doesn't include workplaces or roads, and that is where most people listen to radio.

And where FM, where it fails due to signal stregnth issues, fails gracefully... becoming noisier but still intelligible. As opposed to DAB, which fails as if the receiver has fallen into a bucket of boiling porridge.

As I've pointed out previously - DAB was designed to be received by a moving receiver from many low power transmitters. Sadly, it never got the coverage in the UK it needed. Trying to receive it from a stationary antenna is always going to be a bit of a crapshoot if the signal is at all marginal.

But even FM coverage is less than wonderful in places. For obvious reasons, the transmitter coverage is largely aimed at population centres... but people want to listen on the roads that join them. Most of the time that works, but (e.g.) the top end of the M6 is a bit under supplied with FM, as is most of non-urban Scotland.

"DAB, which fails as if the receiver has fallen into a bucket of boiling porridge."

With DAB+ using AAC+ you don't even get that sort of warning before it dies - it just cuts out dead and you don't know for a few seconds if thats down to the station or a lack of signal. Its incredibly annoying and I can't stand it for more than a few minutes before I switch over.

DAB is useless where I live. I did re-cut an old Band III antenna which is up in the loft & connected into the house distribution system. It feeds just the bedside clock radio. On the road, FM is fine except along bits of the A303 in Wiltshire. The DAB on my wife's car is useless mostly.

Agree with other commenters here about OFCOM. Their remit seems to be to do the government's bidding rather than representing spectrum users.

Came in to say much the same...

Had to replace my car recently and the new one has DAB/FM unit (with other cruft) and I have been able to do some direct comparisons since I have a fairly limited driving experience at the moment. Living on the edge of a failry large town and curving round the top to get to a supermarket.

DAB - regular 5-20 seconds gaps as it reminds itself what I was listening to

FM - 2 spots on the route where I get interference passing some electrical distribution stuff but listenable from switch on to switch off

A couple of years back, for a while, I actually watched London Live rather regularly: they were showing a rerun of Green Wing. :-)

It initially used a very old codec, and sound quality is just not good enough. Techmoan has a very good video about it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27w3quNTP84

Sorry, but I don't have that experience in real life.

Not even close, and I've got a cheap "personal" DAB and live out of the way.

I agree, if coverage is poor that's one thing, but in general the quality of sound is very good...

Thanks, saved me the need to comment this. Dab is just many channels of low quality crap. Long live FM.

And why is no one talking about DRM like used in europe?

It's not surprising there has been a "meh" attitude from the general public towards DAB, considering that the vast majority of the UK's Radio stations still broadcast on legacy DAB's lossy and cumbersome MPEG-1 format from the 1980s. On a decent receiver, music often sounds hollow/tinny compared to FM. When driving, the complete loss of audio vs. FM just getting a bit crackly from time-to-time is particularly frustrating.

There was a reasonable fix announced in the mid-00s, but progress has been painfully slow in the UK.

What's commonly referred to as DAB+ in the UK uses a much more efficient codec (a variant of AAC IIRC?). At the right bitrate, music will sound much closer to the depth of FM quality, and the much improved error correction should reduce the frequency of signal-drops whilst driving or in a low-reception area. Another bonus is it's much more spectrum-efficient. A 48kbps stereo stream on DAB+ should sound better than a 128kbps stream on legacy DAB.

As a working (but still rare) example, Global Radio recently switched some of their DAB 80kbps MONO stations to DAB+ 40kbps STEREO stations. The station I regularly listen to now sounds *much* better, and several of the spots I drive through which consistently used to drop the signal no longer do. This is on the same car stereo as I was using before they switched.

So, for a better end-user experience, and a more efficient use of spectrum available for digital radio, I believe a full DAB to DAB+ migration must be achieved before FM is switched off (if ever).

Great, so my now-quite-old-but-works-perfectly 1st Gen Pure Evoke-1 will be obsolete?

Since the wide-band FM standard came out there has been only one generation of it - an FM radio from 60s work perfectly even now. Unless the radios are patchable and upgreadable, changing protocols every decade is going to piss off a lot of people.

You should read on FM radio when they switched to stereo and not to piss off anyone w/o a stereo unit, and how incompatible upgrade to FM radio failed.

I can sympathise as I also had a 1st-Gen Pure which can no longer receive the stations which recently migrated from DAB to DAB+

A cracking little set which has served me well, and it annoys me that Pure didn't include end-user-upgradable firmware in our particular radios; an oversight which for most “digital” equipment would ensure future obsolescence.

The good news though, is that some DAB radio manufacturers do seem to have learned from their previous mistakes and have evolved. Whilst our 15yr+ old 1st-gen Pure sets are sadly destined for the electronic waste pile, I was able to firmware-upgrade an approx. 10yr old PURE radio to enable DAB+, and do the same for a similar-age Roberts radio used by my parents.

In more recent years (about 7 years ago I think?) the leading DAB manufacturers committed to supplying all new DAB radios with DAB+ compatibility built in, ready to go. Google “DAB Digital Tick” if you’re interested in reading more.

I think (hope) that you, me and the other early adopters of DAB will be in the minority of folks who end up with an obsolete radio once stations fully migrate to DAB+. On the flip-side of the coin, the majority of DAB listeners, whose existing equipment can already support DAB+, will at last benefit from the much improved service.

MANY PROBLEMS

* DAB radios don’t last and are very expensive - a cheap FM radio lasts forever and costs very little

* a little signal degradation and DAB is unusable - on fm you get a little static with no interruption

* coverage already mentioned above - why would a consumer pay more to change to something that is worse?

* battery life - you can run portabale FM radio ages on set of batteries, try that with DAB...

^ THIS ^

At least 1000 x

I, and I'm sure many other people, listen to radio mostly in my car. When I can easily get a replacement DAB radio, and aerial, which don't require expensive custom fitting, and which will reliably pick up a signal along most major roads, maybe then they should start to think about getting rid of FM.

London Live managed to reach a whopping 1.47 per cent of the UK's total...

I don't listen to the radio anyway, but I don't think that a local station called "London Live" would be looking to get a high % of the UK total, but rather a % of the London population (being its local target audience) surely? Simplistically this would be 9/66 of the UK population?

London IS the whole country.

Have you not been following government policy for the past 50 years?

The newer standard fixes the weaknesses of DAB by:

1) Adding Reed-Solomon ECC code to correct reception errors

2) Moving to the AAC CODEC rather than the antiquated MP2 format used by DAB.

The newer standard was released in 2007, so most sets made in the last 10 years should support it. Using the improvements to pack even more channels into the bit stream will however undo the advantages.

EOL.

I have a DAB radio in my car, but I find I often get better results streaming, live or podcast, over 4G. The UK was a pioneer with this tech but we got stuck in a rut, and as a result battery powered DAB radios are a joke because the codec is too power hungry and bitrates are awful because apparently we'd prefer to have thousands of stations with barely distinguishable content than tens with high fidelity audio.

OFCOM can buy everyone a DAB+ Radio either for their car or home, which has equal function to what they currently use and then they can turn off analogue (British spelling).

Oh, and its all at the expense of the Board who want to turn off analogue, not the taxpayer......

Plus provide their personal number for when the system doesn't work...............

Now that DAB radio covers 90 per cent of the UK and listening via digital platforms accounts for 52 per cent of all listening

This looks like another one of those statistics that's measured by population count rather than land mass, so is massively skewed by big cities with lots of people.

I have a DAB receiver built into my car (2018 model) and have tried listening on DAB in preference to FM but it just doesn't work. In quite a lot of places, if DAB is available at all then it's only the BBC stations - the commercial ones (I'm a big fan of Planet Rock) just don't get transmitted from some masts.

And head further north....on a recent trip in Scotland there were places where I could hardly get FM, never mind DAB. Obviously, in places like that mobile data coverage is GPRS at best, so online listening isn't a viable option either.

Long live FM say I...although I am of an age where I still occasionally refer to radio as "the wireless" and remember talking about "VHF and medium wave" rather than "FM and AM".

Sod VHF and MW, give me back my Atlantic 252 on LW

Spotify and other wifi radio station streaming have made it look a bit like a trend whose time came and went. To me it has almost become a bit of a naff cliche : the unnecessarily expensive fake bakelite retro 1940s style "wireless" tuned permanently to Radio 4 in millions of middle class kitchens.

The horrid local commercial radiio stations, where musically it is still and always will be the mid 1980s are not going to succeed by moving away from their solidly FM listeners. No, we need to reimagine the use of digital radio.....

I know : bin DAB, bring in DCB. Yes digital citizens band radio can now succeed where the analogue original failed in what was then still a rather socially reserved country. A citizenry now entirely used to broadcasting inane crap about themselves on social media platforms all day long could take the principle into the local randomsphere and jabber away mindlessly with an endless array of other such likeminded folk..

FM can be received on simple low cost equipment with long battery life. (For years Poundland sold FM radios with earphones for £1.) DAB radios are much more complex, costly and power hungry. FM radio reception is built into many phones (provided that wired earphones are used - the phone uses the earphone wire as the aerial). In areas with low signal strength DAB fails completely but FM degrades more gracefully. Many cars on the road have FM radios not DAB.

The only reason for Ofcom to want to push for the end of FM broadcasting is that they hope to sell DAB broadcasting licenses.

Are those the stations that are created by the Media Studies students from the nearest college?