California Lawmakers Greenlight Solar Panels You Can Plug Into the Wall
- Reference: 0185338162
- News link: https://hardware.slashdot.org/story/26/09/01/0318201/california-lawmakers-greenlight-solar-panels-you-can-plug-into-the-wall
- Source link:
> The legislation, [2]SB 868 , sailed through the state assembly and senate with bipartisan support. The bill now moves to the governor's desk for signature. The devices can be tented in a backyard, hung off a balcony or placed on a roof. Models range from as low as [3]$300 to [4]$2200 , depending on size. The bill would open the solar market to people who were previously left out: renters, people with unsuitable roofs, and those lacking the capital to build out a rooftop system, which can cost in the tens of thousands of dollars.
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> [...] If signed into law by Newsom, the legislation would exempt plug-in solar devices from what critics say is a cumbersome and expensive interconnection application process, and replace registration with a free and straightforward online form. [...] The newly passed bill outlines several device requirements. The balcony solar systems must be capped at generating 1,200 watts per home, plug into a standard outlet, offset a customer's onsite electricity use and meet state and national electrical codes. They also must be certified by an outside safety organization like Underwriters Laboratories and have a feature that would prevent electricity from feeding back into the grid if there's a power outage.
[1] https://www.kqed.org/science/2001842/california-lawmakers-greenlight-solar-panels-you-can-plug-into-the-wall
[2] https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtml?bill_id=202520260SB868
[3] https://www.brightsaver.org/
[4] https://craftstrom.com/
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None of these are a "problem". It already works like that successfully in other countries, for example Germany.
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Some people have their wall sockets on the outside. Please don't judge.
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There is nothing wrong with wall sockets outside. They just need to be IP 55 or better. And, obviously, have ground fault protectors.
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You know outside walls also have outlets.
Battery is a separate and optional concern, sounds like they largely expect these to be grid-tied.
So no particularly significant problems, though some folks may misunderstand how much a kilowatt of peak solar will give them in a given month, but it'll probably be cheap enough to be worth it.
Re: Slight problem (Score:2)
GFCI outlets, which are required outdoors and in garages in most places, often have issues with backfeeding. Mine won't handle it and I had to install a different outlet.
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I was wondering about that.
Thanks for the data point.
how long with it take? (Score:1)
How long will it take for el Bunko and his Merry Band of Bootlickers to get some executive order banning the panels until they register with some fool "gov" agency that he controls. Their registrations will go directly into the round file cabinet and he'll go directly to the bank.
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I do not think the evil ape has any legal leg to stand on in this question. Hence he can be ignored.
Trump has retaliated (Score:1)
Trump has banned construction of new suns.
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I heard he's going to tariff the stars.
It's open for debate whether he was referring to celestial stars or Hollywood stars.
So how do these work? Phase matching? (Score:2)
For rooftop solar, I have to get an inverter that does Phase-locked loop and matches the power coming in from the grid. Do these "balcony" solar panels have integrated inverter that does that?
Also, how much can you really run through NEMA wall sockets, that are notoriously bad design (compared to e.g. Schuko)? How is safety handled, e.g. an electrician comes to visit and turns off the fuses at junction box and then gets zapped because you forgot to unplug the solar panel?
Re: So how do these work? Phase matching? (Score:3, Informative)
Yes they match phase obviously.
For safety they output nothing unless they see a power signal.
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There has to be an inverter, the panels generate DC and it needs to put AC into your outlet. They'll match the phase in the same way.
Your rooftop solar already shuts off the inverter when there is no power on the other side (to keep from sending power to the grid when workers are fixing an outage), this would do the exact same thing. You cut the breaker it is plugged into and the inverter shuts off.
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> It has no way to detect if it is discharging its load through a lamp or an electrician.
I suspect that plugging the panels only into GFCI-equipped outlets would address a large part of this problem. These outlets don't care whether the power is going from breaker panel to outlet or vice versa - they only care whether the currents on Line and Neutral are equal.
Of course, an electrician could get caught across Line and Neutral, in which case the GFCI wouldn't trip. But the best electricians, (or at least the best ones still alive), test for voltage before they put their bodies between Line and N
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The standard socket is 14 gauge wire so 15 amps. There is also the 20 amp version using 12 gauge wire.
That's on 120 V. If the vendors make a 240 V version then the same 15 or 20 amp limits apply but at twice the power.
1200 watts at 120 V is 10 amps so no problem in any system.
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> For rooftop solar, I have to get an inverter that does Phase-locked loop and matches the power coming in from the grid. Do these "balcony" solar panels have integrated inverter that does that?
The ones we have in Europe do and have to. They also have to have mains detection so if there's no live mains detected on the socket you're plugging these inverters into they have to cut power OTTOMH I think it has to be in something like 10ms.
Don't forget a battery (Score:4, Insightful)
Hooking up solar straight to a microinverter doesn't maximize the benefit. Plug the panels into the battery, and the battery (which includes an inverter) into an outlet. During the day, the battery will charge itself with any surplus over demand then the surplus can feed in during the evening. Probably pays for itself in a few years and can also serve as a backup if there is a power failure.
Just become legal in England (Score:4, Interesting)
In the last few days [1]plug-in solar became legal for Britons [theguardian.com]. How expensive are they ? One company will "sell 460W and 890W kits, starting at £599 and £999 respectively, and it plans to launch another four models in late September, with prices starting from £499". Expect them to repay their cost in 4 to 10 years. I expect the purchase price to come down as volume sold goes up.
[1] https://www.theguardian.com/money/2026/aug/22/plug-in-solar-cost-panel-cut-bills-balcony
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Those are total rip off prices. The components for a 1200W kit are under £300 if you buy them separately, although of course they are not certified. There is no enforcement and many people have been running them for years already. In Germany the kits are under £300.
Maybe when one of the German supermarkets (Lidl or Aldi) comes out with a kit we will get some reasonable prices.
Why did they have to? (Score:2)
Why did this require legislative approval? If you want to plug something in at your house, who's to say you can't?
Shouldn't it be the other way around? With government stepping in if something is shown to be too dangerous to have at a house, not presumptively saying, "you can't have that until we think about it".
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Your utility. Anything you hook up to the utility power that can backfeed is their playground. The lege in this case directed the utility by law to allow backfeeds up to 1200W. I've got a larger system installed, and the utility had to sign off AND inspect to ensure it was in compliance with their requirements. Then there is the whole matter of how much the utility will pay you if you backfeed, Again their playground, their rules. I'm not sure if the Cal lege mandated the backfeed rate. Wasn't in the summar
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> The lege in this case directed the utility by law to allow backfeeds up to 1200W.
From a practical perspective, that'sabout all one 15 Amp receptacle can handle. So, trying to keep fire departments not too busy.
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Safety.
If the grid is down but your panel is still energizing the line do you want to be responsible for electrocuting the lineman?
If you have a battery system an automatic disconnect is required for the same reason.
Re:Why did they have to? (Score:4, Insightful)
> Why did this require legislative approval? If you want to plug something in at your house, who's to say you can't?
> Shouldn't it be the other way around? With government stepping in if something is shown to be too dangerous to have at a house, not presumptively saying, "you can't have that until we think about it".
The legislative approach chosen here is for pretty much the same reason that people can't re-wire their homes without approval and inspection: because doing it wrong can endanger the lives and property of other people. In this case, feeding power INTO an outlet may have bad consequences which are not immediately apparent.
YOUR right to rugged individualism and doing whatever the hell you want, ends abruptly at the border of MY right to safety and security. That's a precondition of cooperative, civilized society.
Legislation is needed to enforce that border in cases where people make mistakes or act in ignorance. It's also needed for people who tend to not understand the necessity of such borders. You know - those folks who feel that their selfish pride "Trumps" such trivial considerations as community safety.
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> Why did this require legislative approval? If you want to plug something in at your house, who's to say you can't?
Because of stupid people like you who are too stupid to realise that unless you have legislation that specifies that these devices have to cut all output from the inverter if there's a power cut you can end up in a situation where there's a power cut, an engineer is called out to work on a line he's told has been disconnected and gets electrocuted by the solar installation 3 miles away done by an idiot like you who didn't fit an inverter with that safety feature.
other uses (Score:3)
I don't have one of the balcony panels.
What I do have that works for me is a panel with batteries. I put the panel/battery on the roof and that supplies power to a wireless security cam that records 7/24. So far, it's never run the battery down. I connect using wireless when I get an alert or was just curious about what animal was making that noise last night.
Why bother? So I don't have to run a wire through the yard or any wall or replace batteries every month, and I can put one on the fence looking back at the house.
No doubt there are many uses for these as stand alones.
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> No doubt there are many uses for these as stand alones.
Flock cameras. If the raccoons don't cut them down.
Looking forward to this (Score:5, Interesting)
We have a sunny, south facing portion of our yard. Looking forward to hanging 4 solar panels on the fence and getting 800-1000w (1200w "nameplate" max but reality is closer to 1000w) to offset our daytime use. We both WFH and then the kids are home by 3pm so being able to offset computers, fridge, and part of our AC/Heat bill is huge.
A couple of mfg, Anker and Ecoflow both sell a system that you do the standard 4 x 400w panel = 1200w plug in, and then a second 2000w (+5 more panels) into a battery system that discharges a max of 1200w overnight as the sun sets. I think they want like $1600 for the system. That's an instant buy for me when california electricity is $0.50/kwh
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Utilities will love this. Production just popping up all over the place.
I expect it will turn out like Germany where they have to pay people to take their solar power during the day.
Wish you all the best but I'm honestly a bit cynical.
Re:Looking forward to this (Score:4, Interesting)
California and Texas are some of the biggest adopters of industrial batteries, and the prices keep plummeting. I remember being near an executive power summit in Idaho back in 2016 and all the execs said industrial power was pie in the sky and would never work. It has virtually resolved all of Australia's power "duck curve" problems. Solar + battery is just phenomenally economical today. China is bringing on NaCl batteries this year and shipping cars with them by EoY. Solar panels are made from beach sand and batteries made from ocean water. Couldn't get any cheaper than that.
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Homeowners can adopt a used forklift battery, or an EV battery 80% in it's life.
Re:Looking forward to this (Score:4, Insightful)
> California and Texas are some of the biggest adopters of industrial batteries, and the prices keep plummeting. I remember being near an executive power summit in Idaho back in 2016 and all the execs said industrial power was pie in the sky and would never work. It has virtually resolved all of Australia's power "duck curve" problems. Solar + battery is just phenomenally economical today. China is bringing on NaCl batteries this year and shipping cars with them by EoY. Solar panels are made from beach sand and batteries made from ocean water. Couldn't get any cheaper than that.
Yet at the same time energy prices keep going up. Sodium batteries are not going to change anything. Their advantage is operating temperature range. Lithium makes up 10% of current battery costs.. it isn't a cost driver even if the lithium were free.
Re:Looking forward to this (Score:4, Informative)
The advantage of sodium battery means anybody can produce it, there's no geopolitical alliances needed to manufacture them. Lithium is super rare by comparison. Any and every country can domestically produce sodium batteries forever. The low temp operating envelope of sodium is interesting, but only 11% of the worlds population lives somewhere that is useful. The big benefit is any country can stick a straw in the ocean and build a battery factory regardless of sanctions. Go look at Iran right now if you want to understand why I keep harping on this point.
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They're [1]safer [youtu.be] and that's a really [2]big deal [youtu.be] especially when building and running these things.
[1] https://youtu.be/Hk4wFaZhRNw
[2] https://youtu.be/J091Zl9kXzg
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Not just about cost, Lithium have better capacity both by size and kg, but for home energy storage, that isn't a important factor. Lithium batteries are more dangerous and with limited charge cycles... and this is important for a home energy storage... a cell phone burning is dangerous, imagine a several KW storage system!! Recharge cycles limit the lifespan of the battery and require better control to try to avoid it.
Alternative batteries are bigger with less charge (again , not a issue in a home) , but ar
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> I expect it will turn out like Germany where they have to pay people to take their solar power during the day.
That is a temporary effect while storage is built out. It does not apply to solar, solar is simply switched off or gets zero compensation during these times. It does apply to nuclear. Oh, and it does not really happen in Germany either. It happens to France, for example.
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Negative prices are all over Europe.
And has nothing to do with "technology" but with economics.
Selling for a negative price: is still a bargain. Or why the funk do you think the sell is made?
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> Negative prices are all over Europe.
Yet we still pay through the nose and the prices are going up.
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It really depends. You can have overall negative bills with a decent solar array, battery, and feed-in tariff.
The problem in the UK is that the price of electricity is set by the most expensive source that is required at the time, which is almost always gas. On top of that we have to pay over the odds for nuclear power, if it is needed or not.
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"And has nothing to do with "technology" but with economics."
Because technology and economics are totally unrelated concepts that never interact with each other.
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> Selling for a negative price: is still a bargain. Or why the funk do you think the sell is made?
I see you have absolutely no clue how an energy grid works. Negative prices are paid because the tech you use cannot be shut down fast enough. This primary affects nuclear power. If a nuclear reactor is at a certain power level, that energy needs to be used. It cannot idle. It would blow up if it did. And hence its operators need to pay for somebody using their electricity while they slowly reduce power output.
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"people" don't get paid.
Big customers who can draw half a GW get paid.
Big difference.
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Am in the UK. Am being paid for exporting solar-generated electricity from my house.
Re: Looking forward to this (Score:1)
Utilities in California really only make money on new generation projects, which is why PGE killed residential grid tied solar here by making it unprofitable.
Re: Looking forward to this (Score:2)
Both Czech and Slovakia have 2 GW dummy loads to burn off the excess solar production around midday. In effect, it helps to cool the cities by moving midday heat to the countryside.
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If you're asking me, *positive* prices are a bigger problem. Actually having to pay for electricity is outrageous. Negative prices for a few hours on a few sunny days are negligible compared to the effect that positive prices have on the economy basically all year round.
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> Utilities will love this. Production just popping up all over the place.
Balcony solar generally isn't that much. Especially in North America where it can only provide half the load. Most balcony solar installations generally have less than 1000W of capacity which compared to the daytime load is basically nothing. (This is because they plug into a weedy 110V 15A outlet which restricts how much power can be pushed anyways)
A proper rooftop solar installation will generally have anywhere from 5-20kW of capacity
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Why not get a full roof system though?
Germany has had these plug in kits for years, and the UK is just getting them (at the usual rip off prices, 2-3x what they should be). They are good for people who don't own a roof, such as renters, if priced fairly. Payback in a few years. But if you can get a full system for your roof, that's usually a better option, especially if you also have a battery and/or EV.
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I'd love to have full roof solar. The studies they have ran show it would handle 110% of my daily power needs in the summer. The problem. My roof is from 2008 and will probably need to be replaced in 5-7 years. Because of the high pitch of the roof I have about 4700sq feet of roof. That's about $40,000 right there in my area. Add solar and we are nearing 6 figures.
I know I'll downsize in retirement, unless the pay back is 10 years it makes no sense for me. Today's market doesn't value the solar panels on th
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That's a shame. You can get in-roof solar that replaces the tiles, so maybe that will be cheaper. Really though, $60k for solar on top? Here the gear is very, very cheap, and most of the cost is the labour and scaffolding. If you are getting the roof replaced anyway it's only going to add a small amount to cover it in solar as well.
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The companies that do the solar don't install roofing for some reason. The quote for the solar (I think it was 25kw and I think dual inverter) was about 37k before batteries. There were also some technical issues electrically at the time which may no longer be true 4 years later which was that the batteries couldn't handle some household items so I'd need to place them on a second panel to tolerate electrical outages.
On top of that my state has ended net metering so excess energy can only be given for free
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That's an absolutely insane quote. Maybe half that if it's a particularly tricky roof, and if it is then a quad channel inverter isn't much more and would be of benefit.
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I also live in an area where contractors exploit the fact you live here. Basically if you leave this litltle mcmansion area your quotes will go down at least 15%. I recently wanted to remodel my bathroom. Cheapest quote? 65k. Ended up learning to lay tile myself.
New forced air HVAC with natural gas heat and AC? Cheapest quote? 29k. It's like they see the area and just bump the price.
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People may start seeing co-op solar for those that can't do a roof. Indiana is supposedly trying it out.
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> Ended up learning to lay tile myself.
Smart.
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> Smart.
I've laid about 1000 square feet of tile in my house, I disagree with your assessment on the intelligence of doing so. Tiling sucks, lol.
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Plenty of companies will install solar here but very few offer battery options. I bought a duel fuel generator last year because the outages are getting longer and more frequent.
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Ostensibly yes, but the investment is smaller. You can hang them somewhere OK very cheaply, safely and easily. Plus we're talking about California here: the insolation is way more than northern Europe, so you get more out of the small investment.
Maybe it's a gateway drug
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I'll be interested to see how people use them in the UK, because most people don't have a balcony and most people don't have outdoor sockets they can plug them in to.
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> I'll be interested to see how people use them in the UK, because most people don't have a balcony and most people don't have outdoor sockets they can plug them in to.
Cut moulded mains plug off the end, drill hole in wall or window frame, feed cable through, put a new 3 pin plug on the end, job done. That's how I'll be doing mine. If you've got a mains socket near an external wall on a ring main though (it'll have two twin and earth cables going into the back of the wall socket) you can run a spur to an external mains socket and under the regs it's also something you can DIY without needing an electrician.
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I think if you own a house then you should. Not only can you generate more power, but it's hooked up to proper batteries and inverters that deliver more power back to the house, or to the grid. But as the name implies, a "balcony" system is meant to be a couple of panels you hang out of a window, or put on a balcony that are affordable and easy to set up especially for people in apartments and rentals.
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My roof is about 10 years from EOL so I'm not super eager to install it today as a full system is about $40,000 in my local market. By comparison I can install this in my backyard in about 45 min simply with hand tools. I will do both eventually but i can do this today and cut about 50% of my air conditioning and beat bill today.
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That's a crazy price. 3x what you would pay in the UK at the current exchange rate. One thing I would say though is that if you get the roof replaced, get in-roof solar that replaces the tiles with panels, and consider that solar over it may extend its life considerably.
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Well that was with i think 32 panels, breaker box upgrade, and i forget 10 or 20kwh worth of battery. Effectively fully off grid except dec and January for our climate
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500W panels will be around $125-150 each, so let's say 4.5k for those. 15kWh battery should be around $2000. The inverter itself doesn't cost much, a few hundred, but you will have some additional labour costs if you want it to do off-grid, i.e. whole house UPS. Some cable and mounting hardware. The rest will be labour.
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That pricing makes sense, then. I live in New England in the US. We had 29 (370W) solar panels and 2 Tesla Powerwall batteries installed about 6 years ago. It cost us somewhere in the high $50k range back then. The system offsets over 90% of our power usage each year. My estimates for when the system would pay off have shifted significantly in our favor over the last few years given the dramatic electricity price increases we've seen in the area. We do have net metering, but even if we didn't, the batteries
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> if you get the roof replaced, get in-roof solar that replaces the tiles with panels,
Maybe we're using different words/meanings....but if we both consider a tile a "tile"...then in the US, most house roofs are NOT done with tiles....in fact I'd only seen roof tiles on old houses when I moved to New Orleans....it isn't common to see roofs with tiles.
Asphalt shingles are the most common roofing material in the US.....when I think "tile" I'm thinking like terra cotta, or the like and that's not common. You
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Yeah, shingles, roof tiles, whatever you want to call them. Rather than those you can have panels that are the surface of the roof: [1]https://www.wienerberger.co.uk... [wienerberger.co.uk]
So you don't need to buy shingles or tiles for those areas, or have them fitted. No need for bird fences to keep them out either, as they can't get underneath.
[1] https://www.wienerberger.co.uk/products/roof/in-roof-solar.html
Re: Looking forward to this (Score:2)
Where do you live where this makes sense?
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> A couple of mfg, Anker and Ecoflow both sell a system that you do the standard 4 x 400w panel = 1200w plug in, and then a second 2000w (+5 more panels) into a battery system that discharges a max of 1200w overnight as the sun sets. I think they want like $1600 for the system. That's an instant buy for me when california electricity is $0.50/kwh
My concern is I don't see the high current electronics (MPPT and HF inverter) in a typical power station lasting more than a few years with repeated daily use like this. It might be a nice workaround for areas without balcony solar legislation yet the whole point of balcony is that it is simple and cheap.
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I dunno, people on boats and in vans buy this stuff and run it for a decade or more without problems. Name brands like anker and ecoflow have very solid track records and 5-8 year warranty on most of this stuff. It's not fly by night Chinese crap. All this stuff has a very solid track record at this point. I bought my first MPPT way back in 2017 it's still alive and kicking no problem
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> I dunno, people on boats and in vans buy this stuff and run it for a decade or more without problems.
What stuff? What are they buying? Power stations or discrete components for a low voltage system? The technology in the form of modern power stations didn't even exist "for decades"... Ecoflow the company is less than a decade old. Decades ago you bought a big honkin LF inverter and connected it to lead acid batteries. Completely different technology.
> Name brands like anker and ecoflow have very solid track records and 5-8 year warranty on most of this stuff.
Anker and Ecoflow don't offer any warranty exceeding 5 years on their power stations.
> It's not fly by night Chinese crap. All this stuff has a very solid track record at this point. I bought my first MPPT way back in 2017 it's still alive and kicking no problem
You purchased a discrete MPPT not a power station. Most of these compa