Colorado's New Speed Camera System Makes Waze Nearly Useless (motor1.com)
- Reference: 0181216976
- News link: https://tech.slashdot.org/story/26/04/03/207238/colorados-new-speed-camera-system-makes-waze-nearly-useless
- Source link: https://www.motor1.com/news/792050/colorado-automated-speed-limit-cameras/
> The state's new automated vehicle identification systems (AVIS) use several cameras to calculate your average speed between them, and if it is 10 miles per hour or more over the limit, you get a ticket. No longer will you be able to slow down as you approach a camera and speed back up after passing it, not that you should be speeding on public roads in the first place.
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> Colorado began deploying this new camera system after legislators changed the [2]law in 2023, allowing AVIS for law enforcement use. The systems, installed on various roads and highways throughout the state, first began issuing warnings, but police began issuing tickets late last year.
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> The most recent section of road to fall under surveillance is a stretch of I-25 north of Denver, which brought the state's growing panopticon to our attention. It began issuing tickets on April 2. The Colorado Department of Transportation installed the cameras along a construction zone. The fine is $75 and zero points for exceeding the speed limit, and the police issue it to the vehicle's owner, regardless of who is driving.
[1] https://www.motor1.com/news/792050/colorado-automated-speed-limit-cameras/
[2] https://advance.lexis.com/documentpage/?pdmfid=1000516&crid=c6e3c56e-f8da-471e-aebc-c53efa4ef081&config=014FJAAyNGJkY2Y4Zi1mNjgyLTRkN2YtYmE4OS03NTYzNzYzOTg0OGEKAFBvZENhdGFsb2d592qv2Kywlf8caKqYROP5&pddocfullpath=%2Fshared%2Fdocument%2Fstatutes-legislation%2Furn%3AcontentItem%3A6G0M-1763-RRP0-751X-00008-00&pdcontentcomponentid=234176&pdteaserkey=sr0&pditab=allpods&ecomp=6s65kkk&earg=sr0&prid=3f259a41-e6c2-4854-b4c1-c8048d4da558
Laws are weird (Score:2)
In California, it's illegal to do this. We call it a speed trap, even though that already means something — cop hiding in some shitty spot where the speed limit suddenly and unexpectedly drops or whatever. I got busted with one of these in Jackson City, TX, a trivial little carbuncle on the asshole of a slightly shortcut route to Austin if you're heading East on the I-10, with a stop sign completely enveloped in a fucking tree that probably produces 50% of that shithole's revenue.
*ahem*
Anyhoo this CO
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
"... this CO scheme wouldn't be legal here in CA..."
It would not be legal in Texas either, but legal is what a judge says it is. Judges aren't there to find you not guilty.
Earlier in my life I had a friend whose father was a prosecutor. He claimed his father had never lost a case and couldn't understand criticism how that result was not something to brag about. Turns out his father was a personal friend of the judge that tried his cases and served as a temporary judge in that same court when the judge wa
Re: (Score:3)
The "good guys" aren't going to get speeding tickets in the mail.
Re: Laws are weird (Score:2)
> Speed limits are set to ensure a ready supply of people to fine. The more effective and automatic enforcement is, the larger a problem there is going to be with the public.
Wait, there's abuse, like waiting at the bottom of a steep hill with a speed reduction. Automating the abuse, to wash hands, like red light cameras printing money for every slightly rolling right turn on red. An officer might be too embarrassed to do in person. Then there's average speed over some distance, and that's ... what?
Unless that's straight up hidden from the public I'm not seeing how it's possibly abusive. And speed limits aren't always abused anyway, come on.
Shitty speed limits are usually shit f
Re: (Score:2)
Telling yourself something is a dumpster fire does not make it so.
Re: States are weird. (Score:2)
"Nobody goes there, the line is too long"
Classic
...not that you should be speeding on public roads (Score:2, Insightful)
"...not that you should be speeding on public roads in the first place."
Why is that? Speeding is defined relative to an arbitrary value, if the state doesn't want speeding it should set those values properly. Speed limits are set to ensure speeding, not to improve public safety.
Re:...not that you should be speeding on public ro (Score:5, Insightful)
FTFY "Speed limits are set to reduce speeding. To improve public safety." [1]https://www.sciencedirect.com/... [sciencedirect.com] "Effectiveness of 30 km/h speed limit – A literature review"
[1] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S002243752400152X
Re: (Score:1)
Wow, you make a super persuasive point. You should definitely drive at whatever speed you feel like, get fined on on purpose, then take it to court and tell them exactly what you just said. You'll sure show them.
Re: (Score:1)
The point wasn't made elegantly but it's still valid. Traffic enforcement revenue is a big thing in many towns to the point where speeds are set by politicians and officials who want to maximize revenue, not credentialed traffic engineers who've calculated a speed that balances safety and efficient traffic flow.
Re: (Score:3)
Keeping people alive is a direct revenue stream.
A very late implementation (Score:5, Informative)
In The Netherlands we call it 'trajectcontrole' (average speed control) and it has been around since the early 2000's.
Paradise! (Score:5, Insightful)
> calculate your average speed between them, and if it is 10 miles per hour or more over the limit, you get a ticket.
Seems reasonable. In Australia you get a ticket for a momentary 2mph over. And the fine can be over us$200, depending on state. It is higher in the states with the most financial problems.
Maybe stick to the speed limit? (Score:3)
There is a reason for that limit. And it is not to inconvenience you.
Re: (Score:1)
Most speed limits are arbitrarily set and have no legitimate reason other than to generate revenue from speeding tickets.
Re: (Score:2)
That is complete nonsense. Please provide evidence for your insane claim.
Re: (Score:1)
Most places (in the US) utilize the 85th percentile rule - the speed at which 85% of traffic naturally travels = arbitrary and stupid. Some places are actively switching away from this. However, on top of this "rule", many agencies/places set the speed limit BELOW the 85th percentile rule which is even more arbitrary and stupid - the only possible reason is to cause confusion and generate revenue.
Next, most drivers tend to ignore signs and pick a speed based on their vehicle capabilities, road design, weath
Re: (Score:2)
You can tell this person is still a teenager that thinks he has outsmarted the world.
Re: (Score:1)
> Most speed limits are arbitrarily set and have no legitimate reason other than to generate revenue from speeding tickets.
Most speed limits are in residential areas, as most road miles are in residential areas - those speed limits are not set to generate speeding ticket revenue, or do you really think it would be safe to drive, say, 40-45 MPH down a neighborhood street?
School zones are another place where the speed limit is set for safety, not revenue generation - it has to do with reaction times, stopping distance, etc.
The last time I heard about a large-scale sweeping speed limit was when someone convinced the Carter Adminis
Re: (Score:2)
Repeating this dumb statement is dumb.
Re: (Score:2)
> Most speed limits are arbitrarily set and have no legitimate reason other than to generate revenue from speeding tickets.
While I won't argue with speed limits often being arbitrary, the problem of fines (and civil forfeitures) being used to generate revenue is largely an American one. In most places fine revenue either goes to the central government's general fund or is ring-fenced for specific uses that are not the under the control of the people enforcing the laws. In the USA most states let the police agency that levies a fine or civil forfeiture keep some or all of the money. This leads directly to abuse. Enforcement is a
Re: (Score:3)
Right, because our laws are created by an all-knowing and benevolent government that only has our best interests at heart.
The fact that they're charging the vehicle owner, not the driver, should make it clear that this is an illicit cash grab.
Re: (Score:2)
Be interesting to challenge this as the owner, and require photo evidence of who the driver is at one location where the car was detected otl.
Re: (Score:2)
Speed limits are not laws. They are localized risk-management instances (with a legal basis, because people are dumb and cannot take advice).
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Speed limits are laws. When you break them you pay a fine or go to jail.
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Not murdering people isn't a law either. It's a general characteristic of a social species (with a legal basis, because people are dumb and cannot take advice).
Re: (Score:1)
> Right, because our laws are created by an all-knowing and benevolent government that only has our best interests at heart.
> The fact that they're charging the vehicle owner, not the driver, should make it clear that this is an illicit cash grab.
That is the fundamental way traffic cameras work - by not stopping the vehicle, they can't be certain who the driver is, but they can be certain who owns the car.
If you blow thru a bridge toll both without an EZPass, they take a picture of your car and your license plate - the owner owes the toll & fines.
If you drive thru a toll road tag reader without a tag, the charge the car owner.
If you are caught by a roadside speeding camera, they don't use facial recognition to identify the driver, same if you ro
Re: (Score:2)
They do this because the fines are civil penalties, not criminal as if a cop gave you a ticket.
Re: (Score:1)
> There is a reason for that limit.
Yes, lets talk about that reason. A reasonable approach to setting speed limits would be engineering - what would it take to for a modern car to stop in set distance modified to account for bad weather. As tire technology, automotive safety systems, etc. are implemented you would think that speed limits would be constantly increasing. The reverse is true - with some notable exceptions of highway speeds in some states - speed limits keep getting decreased. Why?
My answer to that is that speed limits have not
Re: (Score:2)
You are deranged. Speed limits are placed when there are non-obvious risks to driving faster.
Re: (Score:1)
As usual, you are arguing in bad faith. Address the point I made instead of attacking a straw man. If car safety constantly improves, and speed limits are about safety, then why are speed limits are not being increased?
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Are the humans driving the car getting better reaction times? No? Then stop this silliness.
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While it is true that most speed limits are placed due to risk, that is not always true.
There are places in the US and other countries where speed tickets are used to raise money from out of towners. They do things like down shift the speed by 10 mph for a 1 mile stretch and then station a cop near there. The cops know the local cars and if they do happen to break the law they get warnings.
In addition, often speed limits are set differently for wealthy parts of town vs the poor parts of town - to give ou
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
> A few years back where I lived they installed speed cameras. Municipality contracted speed camera installation to private firm, which calibrated them to ridiculous speed limit +2. Then the municipality started lowering speed limits. According to official statistics, by the end of the program about 40% of population got a speeding ticket in a given year. This resulted in political pressure to shut the program down. Thing is, before, during, and after there was no measurable effect on accidents. It didnâ(TM)t even work as a safety measure.
The purpose of the speed cameras was always revenue generation - it was never about safety.
The city hired someone to install cameras and give the city money. Over time the city wanted more money, so they kept changing speed limits. If they wanted to prevent speeding, the city would have increased interdiction, rather than installing a passive revenue-generating camera system.
Why would anyone think getting a bill in the mail two weeks after you went speeding down a neighborhood street would increase safety?
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"Why would anyone think getting a bill in the mail two weeks after you went speeding down a neighborhood street would increase safety?"
When your license gets suspended because you couldn't afford to pay the bill then maybe you'll have a second, follow up thought.
Re: (Score:2)
Driver response time doesn't increase at all. The rest of stopping distance is determined by physics and doesn't increase much, at least not in good conditions where any old tire and any sufficiently strong brake is going to perform about the same. It CAN decrease a lot in bad conditions, whcih is also where most of the technology is useful, but most speed limits are set for good conditions with a law that says you should decrease your speed appropriately. Driving around at the speed that's reasonable for t
huh (Score:2)
Call me ignorant, but I thought the point of Waze was to find shortcuts. Now this makes Waze useless?
Re: (Score:2)
Was it Wayze that got into trouble when it had an option to avoid driving thru high-crime areas? The provider was called racist, and community leaders insisted they remove the option, so that unsuspecting victims, I mean potential customers could drive by businesses in high-crime neighborhoods...
Re: (Score:2)
Waze has always been useless. It has never provided "better directions" but it will sen you on a wild goose chase down a one way road to make a left across 4 lanes of traffic to save you 30 seconds.
How interesting (Score:4, Insightful)
What an interesting way to roll out a dragnet surveillance network.
The mass Pike tried this, (Score:2)
When they went from tickets with only the exit ID on them, to tickets that were time and date stamped. Somebody at the turnpike authority decided it would be a good idea to figure out the time between getting the ticket and paying, and considering at a speed violation if the time was too short. That idea did not last long.
not sayin break the law (Score:1)
drones and spary paint.
if it cant see.....
Re: (Score:2)
Yeah commit a felony defacing of public property to avoid a misdemeanor traffic ticket. Brilliant!
Speed enforcement (Score:2, Interesting)
There are roughly three ways to enforce speed limits:
1) Police officer in plain sight detects speeding, stops the driver, issues summons.
2) Police officer hides, catches unsuspecting driver speeding, stops driver, issues summons.
3) Camera/radar hidden along the street, it logs the vehicle speeding, issues a summons several days later.
Arguably, #1 & 2 have the effect of causing people to obey the speed limit, by stopping the driver they (likely) influence behavior, at least in the immediate aftermath of
Re:Speed enforcement (Cont'd) (Score:1)
Continuing, it can be argued that #1 & 2 have an influence on driver behavior, seeing a police car, drivers self-correct behavior, and knowing a police car typically hides behind a billboard can cause drivers to self-correct behavior as they approach the billboard, for fear there might be an officer behind it.
Getting a bill in the mail two weeks later does nothing to correct behavior, even briefly - the system lets you continue speeding, presenting safety hazards to the community, but the city get the c
Re: (Score:2)
They take your license away if you get multiple speeding in school zone tickets.
I'm pretty sure even a moron will figure out how to stop speeding when that happens.
Re: (Score:2)
Perhaps, but camera systems without the officer don't actually issue "tickets" that carry points. They issue "citations" that show up nowhere if paid.
Re: (Score:3)
> 2) Police officer hides, catches unsuspecting driver speeding, stops driver, issues summons.
This is the very best approach. It's got the perfect tension leading to the greatest safety.
When you're expecting such an ambush (getting caught a few times will teach you to do that), and you're really paying attention and playing "spot the ambush" then they won't catch you. But because you're being so damned focused and alert, you're also a safer driver.
OTOH if they nail you, that means you weren't paying attentio
It's a tax on working people and the poor (Score:1)
If you pay attention to where they put these it's always in poor neighborhoods. You never see them in the rich neighborhoods because if they put them there well to do people have the time to lobby and get them removed or made illegal.
But rich people also don't like paying taxes. But they do like having services. So they find ways, like speeding cameras, to make sure that poor people pay through the nose so they don't have to.
It's the same way for the suburbs. Seriously Google it. The suburbs are com
LAWYERS (Score:2)
It's always really about the ability to fight back. Poor lives do not matter. Often these are brown people but we also have a demographic of "white trash" who are too busy trying to punch down on brown people so they don't feel they hit rock bottom themselves. Along with red-necks who are falling down economically and feel their privilege slipping away. (plus all groups have tiny insecure men factions who are toxic. Penis enlargement and legal prostitution would solve so many deep problems... but crash th
SPEED CAMERAS ARE ILLEGAL (Score:2)
A good fight would end them.
1) Confronted by your accuser? it's a robot. my state ended cameras decades ago on such a lawsuit. also no context to any of it and lack of evidence of context. Rich can at least get themselves free from punishment...
2) The owner can't be held liable for use of their property. This isn't a child given a gun... but good way to involve the NRA; easier argument which could be applied to gun owners.
3) Subsequent punishments based upon your car's violations is certainly not going to h
Eventually when money gets tight (Score:2)
Municipalities will just pass laws or constitutional amendments to get around the robot problem. If they have to they will sneak it past voters during a special election or a midterm with a bunch of scary propaganda. If all else really fails and they can't ram it through with the current legislative framework they will just change the laws and/or pack the courts.
America is a borderline lawless country where might makes right and money is all that matters. We are one bad election away from just straight
Re: (Score:2)
Yes. I agree the nation is collapsing and it will happen and the turning point will be 2025 in the history books; couldn't be more clear unless an armed insurrection that was successful - probable had the election functioned... but societal collapse leads to dysfunction. Rome took 300 years to fall; people debate over when-- because it's death by 1000 cuts. Same here but 2025 is more stand out than other events; Nixon was huge but subtle and nobody could reasonably project beyond it; Reagan on the other han
Re: (Score:2)
You don't seem to understand the fundamental agreement you enter when you register your car with the state.
Re: (Score:2)
Any law can be done. The courts can undo it; if willing, and it can take a long time for justice and public pressure to play out. Such as the Dread Scott decision. Change in judges, maybe politicians, and maybe a violent revolution (or suppressing one in that case.)
You can't just sign or click away your rights but we do all the time; a big lawsuit and sometimes a few laws-- like CA for example has laws that prevent you from giving up rights. Such as the employment non-compete rights you can't sign away in C
Who's driving? (Score:2)
Last time I checked, my vehicle is not a legal entity that can be cited for infractions. Whatever person is sitting behind the wheel of that vehicle is not known by a camera. I can't believe these things haven't been totally obliterated in court. In my state, the tickets you get from these things are actually from 3rd parties contractors who run them, and try to sound very official, but they are not actual summons through a court.
Re:Who's driving? (Score:4, Funny)
Just start bleating about being "sovereign" while you're at it LOL
Re: (Score:2)
Correct. They are a civil fine. Not paying would simply send you to collections. In PA people weren’t paying toll fees and weren’t paying the collection agency either. I think they finally tried to pass something that would suspend your license as if that would stop the serial cheater from driving.
didn't they have this on tollways in oh years ago? (Score:2)
As I recall, Ohio toll highways did this years ago; if your time stamp at the booth was less than a certain number of minutes since the previous, you got a ticket for speeding.
Infallible, and took away the point really.
Sure, I guess you could speed and then pull over waiting before you cross the next gate but... Why bother?
Re: (Score:2)
That was a rumor in a lot of places. I tested it last year and averaged like 86 on a 70 toll road. They don’t care.
That's not what Waze is for (Score:2)
Waze is a navigation app. Making speeding harder doesn't affect its utility for that.
When my family went to Costa Rica in 2024, Waze had much better road information than Google Maps.
I had an uncle I never met because he was kiled by a speeder. I've never been sympathetic to people who want to get away with driving fast.
Re: (Score:2)
"When my family went to Costa Rica in 2024, Waze had much better road information than Google Maps."
Waze literally gets the road information from Google Maps.
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I have no idea why it was better then, but It was.
Re: (Score:2)
I'm here for your "proving wormholes exist" presentation of evidence :D
Let’s be honest (Score:2)
I have long concluded that the governments in most US jurisdictions are fine with the majority of freeway users speeding. It allows them to basically pull over anyone they want at any time without being accused of profiling. I don’t see any other reason why speed limits are set so low. 55 is still the standard for most freeways back east. If you drive that slow you would be a hazard. Out west 65 to 70 is common. Some roads are even 80 or no limit at all. Whatever the limit is you can be practically gu
Yay Calculus (Score:2)
"Just because my average speed was 85mph doesn't mean I wasn't going less than that the whole way."
The Mean Value Theorem is coming to a prosecution slide deck near you.
Rocky mountain fine! (Score:2)
I wonder if people will vote their loser government out.
UK has them, Waze still useful (Score:5, Informative)
We've had averaging speed cameras in the UK for many years (e.g. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]. Many stretches of road with permanent cameras and often seen on major roadworks (e.g. sections of motorway being worked on for months).
Waze maps them as averaging sections with specific camera sites, so it's still useful.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPECS_(speed_camera))
Re: UK has them, Waze still useful (Score:2, Insightful)
TomTom is even better at this since it actually displays your average speed throughout the zone. I have no idea why none of the others offer this.
Re: (Score:1)
So, 90, starbucks, 90 = 45.
Re:UK has them, Waze still useful (Score:4, Interesting)
Same here in the Netherlands. Waze works just fine here with those average speed enforcement zones (as they're called in Waze lingo). I think it even takes those sections into consideration when plotting routes based on "fastest". Quite useful information to have.
Re: (Score:2)
And even after all these years there are still plenty of idiots who don't understand what the word "average" means. I always see them slowing down for a camera then speeding right back up again afterwards. How do people this dumb get a license?
Re: (Score:2)
What Waze does is warn drivers ahead of a speed camera, so that the driver may slow down. If there are a bunch of them, Waze will point that out as well. As well as hidden traffic cops, traffic lights, slowdowns ahead and so on
Given all that, I doubt that Waze will be rendered useless by such adjustments in speed tracking