Vermont EV Buses Prove Unreliable For Transportation This Winter (vermontdailychronicle.com)
- Reference: 0180823118
- News link: https://tech.slashdot.org/story/26/02/18/1732246/vermont-ev-buses-prove-unreliable-for-transportation-this-winter
- Source link: https://vermontdailychronicle.com/vermont-ev-buses-prove-unreliable-for-transportation-this-winter/
> Electric buses are proving unreliable this winter for Vermont's Green Mountain Transit, as it needs to be over 41 degrees for the buses to charge, but due to a battery recall the buses are a fire hazard and [1]can't be charged in a garage .
>
> Spokesman for energy workers advocacy group Power the Future Larry Behrens told the Center Square: "Taxpayers were sold an $8 million 'solution' that can't operate in cold weather when the home for these buses is in New England."
>
> "We're beyond the point where this looks like incompetence and starts to smell like fraud," Behrens said.
>
> "When government rushes money out the door to satisfy green mandates, basic questions about performance, safety, and value for taxpayers are always pushed aside," Behrens said. "Americans deserve to know who approved this purchase and why the red flags were ignored."
>
> General manager at Green Mountain Transit (GMT) Clayton Clark told The Center Square that "the federal government provides public transit agencies with new buses through a competitive grant application process, and success is not a given."
>
[1] https://vermontdailychronicle.com/vermont-ev-buses-prove-unreliable-for-transportation-this-winter/
Astroturfing (Score:5, Insightful)
Not that these concerns aren't worth discussing but consider the narrative in this article and who is presenting it:
"energy workers advocacy group Power the Future"
Now for one thing "energy workers" pretty much means "oil and gas industry" and when you go the website of Power the Future it's full of them representing themselves on Fox news. "We believe America is blessed with abundant and reliable energy sources that have been the lifeblood of our national advancement and prosperity." Come on, that's a dog whistle as loud as a bullhorn.
Second one is "Institute for Energy Research" and that itself has a Wikipedia entry "IER is often described as a front group for the fossil fuel industry.[3][4][5] It was initially formed by Charles Koch, receives donations from many large companies like Exxon, and publishes a stream of reports and position papers opposing any efforts to control greenhouse gasses."
So is there a real issue here? Maybe but the article and how it's being presented is presenting a narrative, exactly the type of thing climate deniers accuse their opposition of doing all the time. Interesting aint it?
Re: (Score:2)
That's not really blaming the government either, what he says is correct; The grant is there to give a leg up for places to try something new, it being new means it could have growing pains as we see here, issues that in the article they are already addressing.
This is my point, this is fossil fuel lobbyists doing "perfect is the enemy of good" as a backhanded tactic.
Re: Astroturfing (Score:4, Insightful)
In this case I don't think they want perfect, they just want them to do the same thing as diesel buses for the same cost.
Re: (Score:1)
I know you're not saying that but anyone who says that is making the argument of a child and should be discarded, a complete inability to take in the context of each thing and judge it accordingly and take the pros and cons and adjust accordingly. They're not the same as diesels other than they are both bus shaped.
Re: Astroturfing (Score:2)
The budget for public transit that has been far too low for 20 years is not going to suddenly increase for any reason. People want low taxes and affordable bus rides. There is nowhere for more money to come from. I have heard in Toronto they feel they would need to have chargers or battery stock everywhere in the city for it to work.
Re: (Score:3)
> So is there a real issue here?
You make some good points regarding the source and underlying agenda, but
...it needs to be over 41 degrees for the buses to charge, but due to a battery recall the buses are a fire hazard and can't be charged in a garage.
rather sounds like an actual issue that needs investigating, irrespective of who reported it, or why.
Re:Astroturfing (Score:5, Informative)
Sure but you're doing the same thing by leaving out the context of that issue: the trucks originally were working with charging in any temp and in the garage but then there was a fire risk issue with a recall on the batteries so the manufacturer did a software update for safety that places restrictions on charging to mitigate fire risk until the replacement.
Now sure that kinda sucks in the winter sure but this is somewhat new tech but that is hardly showing the idea is failing or anywhere close to "fraud" as the narrative here is presented. Meanwhile the bus company already said they have more busses with newer batteries on order.
If the article was called "new EV bus program experience growing pains in winter" that's more fair to whats happening.
Re: (Score:3)
Oh and the part i left out, this would have to be framed in comparison to traditional diesel busses. Do they never have safety recalls? Heres one of a tranditional bus model having to do recalls of 16000 units due to safety recalls. Does that means buses are a failed concept and the manufacturer should be charged with fraud? Have no diesels had recalls due to their DPF systems? Carbon coking or other ICE specific problems?
[1]https://news.buses.org/motor-c... [buses.org]
[1] https://news.buses.org/motor-coach-industries-recalls-nearly-16000-buses-over-safety-glass-issue/
Re: (Score:2)
Fun fact: prior to the battery recall the biggest problem with GMT's electric busses was with the fuel-based heaters tha they have instead of heat pumps.
Re: (Score:2)
> but this is somewhat new tech
No it's not. We've been charging batteries for decades.
That said it isn't fraud, it very well may be failure to deliver against the specification in the purchase order. The question is now, what were the terms.
Re: (Score:2)
It sounds like extreme incompetence on the part of the designers, or at least someone in the chain.
Lithium batteries can't be charged as fast when they are cold, which is why some EVs automatically heat their batteries when you navigate to a charger. They can still be charged slowly though, and the charging warms them up so that speed eventually improves. Given these are likely being charged overnight, it shouldn't be an issue.
Maybe the problem is not the battery, but the inverter, if they are charging from
Re: (Score:2)
Read what you just wrote:
> due to a battery recall
A battery recall does not equal incompetence or fraud from the people who bought them. That's just a blatantly partisan shill for the oil industry trying to push an agenda. A battery recall means the product turned out to have a manufacturing defect that the manufacturer is now addressing. Once it's fixed, they'll be able to charge the buses in a garage, which is presumably what they intended from the start, and the problem will go away.
Re: Astroturfing (Score:1)
The article in the original post is a libertarian blog that doesnâ(TM)t qualify as news
Issues (Score:3)
There are definitely groups pushing a narrative. There are also legitimate problems that need to be addressed. We have a hybrid and a pure EV, and there are definitely issues that would prevent us from going full EV. Several of them involve cold weather. Road trips in the summer aren't a problem. Road trips in the winter are. There needs to be a LOT more chargers in cold regions. Around us there are a ton of chargers going in the big metro areas, but none being built out on the boonies. If you want to drive
Re: (Score:2)
Agreed and the thing is this type of article doesn't even allow us to have that conversation, it's already made it's determination.
Re: Astroturfing (Score:1, Insightful)
So it isn't cold in Vermont?
The batteries can be charged below 41degrees?
The buses aren't considered a safety hazard?
The people that funded the study don't change the above three facts.
Re: (Score:3)
And here we have the classic "just do talking points, don't worry about context!"
Re: (Score:2)
The Vermont Daily Chronicle isn't what anyone would call a newspaper, more of a grindstone for axes.
It's where you get to post your opinion piece and then link to it so it looks like you aren't just self-hosting. Not even conservative cite it.
Stupid and stupider (Score:1)
It's stupid that they would need to charge in a garage, as battery warming pads are available aftermarket.
But it's even stupider that the GM for Green Mountain Transit thinks the barrier to charging under 41 degrees "is simply a software update". No it's not, genius, if you charge under 40 degrees you destroy your battery. They really need to have more transparency on these govt projects. Anybody who has a basic knowledge of electronics, or even campers, could fix this.
Get the warming pads off Amazon and yo
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
so everyone in VT with electric vehicles are "destroying" their batteries when they charge everyday? it hasnt been above 40 in 2 months.. you are stupid.
Re: (Score:2)
A new invention called a resistive heater can heat batteries even on the roll inside an encloser to 30C at -10C. Either the bus is in service with a state of charge or it should be on a 300kw cord. In fact the dehumidification system for the cablin will take all the 40F fluids one can pump and put it in the HVAC system and remove the moisture that causes problems in the cabin. Most drive motors are fluid cooled, you can make any eclectic motor into a heater by running solid DC through it with the pa
Re: (Score:2)
I lived in Massachusetts. People in the region do not put their cars in garages any more than they do in California. The EVs are working parked outside. As others mentioned they can heat their own batteries, an ability these buses seem to lack.
Re: (Score:2)
"a software update""
IF the charger is plugged in AND the ambient temperature to low THEN run the electric heater
Re: (Score:2)
Apparently the software actually disables charging below 41 degrees. So a software update would solve this (while allowing whatever bad thing happens below 41 degrees (fires???))
Lying Idiots Blaming "Green": instead of stupidity (Score:3, Insightful)
Yes these busses do not work. Electric Busses in Canada DO work.
[1]https://en.byd.com/news/byd-el... [byd.com]
Those Canadian busses are made in China. Trump hates China. The Vermont busses are made in America.
The problem is NOT "government rushes money out the door to satisfy green mandates" The green mandates had nothing to do with the problem.
The problem was incompetent people in the government that did not get a proven system.
[1] https://en.byd.com/news/byd-electric-buses-rollout-across-canadas-largest-city/
Re: (Score:1, Troll)
Actually, it's just the opposite to what you say here.
Electric buses DON'T WORK in Canada.
[1]https://nationalpost.com/opini... [nationalpost.com]
[1] https://nationalpost.com/opinion/jamie-sarkonak-electric-buses-are-a-disaster-for-every-canadian-city-that-tries-them
Re: (Score:2)
An op-ed piece on a right wing newspaper.
Re: (Score:1)
There are links to other news sources in that article. Try clicking on some of them to get information from more direct sources if you like.
Re: (Score:2)
That's not how the rules of debate normally work. It's up to the person making the claim to support it.
Re: (Score:2)
You really are incapable of cutting and pasting a link????
Re: (Score:2)
so no the problem was rushed green mandates actually. Buy American is and should be a high priority objective for government spending that green or efficiency targets. What should have happened is the state should have told the vendor, look we want to go EV but we need something we can charge outdoors in the Vermont winter where we generally expect to have X days per year around $(insert temp, below which it is acceptable to cancel bus service) you will get the contract when we can charge at that temperat
Re: (Score:3)
> My understanding is the new Postal EVs rather under performed in cold weather too.
No if you read the story, the actual problem is the batteries need to be replaced due to fire risk, but replacement batteries are not available for another 18-24 months. In the meantime, the manufacturer recently put in software locks to prevent charging under 41F. That's the real problem.
Re: Lying Idiots Blaming "Green": instead of stupi (Score:2)
Lol you cite propaganda from an EV bus company as evidence that they are working? Toronto has tried them but they cannot be brought into full service without bringing a whole lot more charging all the way along routes. One bus died on route in Toronto showing 15% battery remaining.
Re: (Score:2)
> "the federal government provides public transit agencies with new buses through a competitive grant application process, and success is not a given."
This, right here, is the problem. Buy from the lowest bidder, but with no contracted requirement that what they provide is fit for purpose.
I wonder who paid off whom to get this past oversight and scrutiny.
That sounds like more of a Shelbyville idea...
Re: Lying Idiots Blaming "Green": instead of stupi (Score:1)
The TDS is strong with this one.
The money that bought the buses (under the Biden admin, I suspect), required the buses to be made in the U.S. why does this have anything to do with Trump? Did Trump approve the federal money, the busses were ordered, built, delivered to VT all in 2025?
Re: Lying Idiots Blaming "Green": instead of stupi (Score:1)
From the linked-to article: (spoiler alert, they were bought under Biden admin, not "China-hating Trump")
> From 2020-2024, the [Federal Transit Administrationâ(TM)s] priority for grants had been low or no emission vehicles, with grant requests for diesel buses often not awarded,â Clark said.
> âoeThis was part of a concerted effort of the previous administration to accelerate public transitsâ(TM) migration to replace diesel buses,â Clark said.
> âoeTo be competitive for a grant, GMTâ¦saw electric battery buses as the pathway to get the most new buses,â Clark said. âoeGreen Mountain Transitâ(TM)s priority is new buses, regardless of the type.â
> Clark informed The Center Square that GMTâ(TM)s âoeelectric battery buses are 90% paid for by federal and Volkswagen settlement funds.â
So this is why the left wing keeps losing (Score:2)
So you have a solution to a problem which is pollution and dependency on fossil fuels. And make no mistake while small passenger cars can be made zero emissions buses and semi trucks can't.
So the first attempt at a solution doesn't work. And the public at Large looks at that and instead of saying hey we need to come up with fixes for this and iterate till we get it right they're ready to throw the baby and bathwater out together.
This makes it really hard to do anything progressive or that makes the
Re: So this is why the left wing keeps losing (Score:3)
We still live in a capitalist economy. Cities can't run EV buses if they cost way more and require all kinds of charging infrastructure that ICE buses didn't.
Re: (Score:2)
"Way more" is carrying a lot of effort and cities can and should build exactly that type of infrastructure. If EV busses are anything like EV cars the cost upsides are in the long term and considering most busses run everyday the TCO over their probably 2 decade lifetime should be quite high instead of burning diesel all day long.
Even more so for busses than cars it makes pretty obvious sense since they already have dedicated depots they return to end of shift and they also spent quite a lot of time idling
Re: So this is why the left wing keeps losing (Score:2)
I have been saying that cities should put more money into public transit for years and years. No one listened to me either.
Re: (Score:2)
Buses are used by "the poors". Nobody on either side of the aisle considers this an issue worth changing their vote over. The only reason we're even hearing about it is because the libertarian and right-wing media loves to get their base stroking their egos over the massive ICE pickup trucks they have parked in their driveways.
Of course, if your point was that America is uniquely bad at public transportation - that's true, but it's because the auto industry owns all the politicians.
Re: So this is why the left wing keeps losing (Score:2)
So enough money needs to be put into it so that it is a comfortable experience. But people complain about high taxes as it is. And you can't out price the poorest of the poor.
Re: (Score:2)
"they're ready to throw the baby and bathwater out together."
Why do you say the left is losing when it's a RWNJ wannabe paper calling to get rid of the electric buses?
Re: (Score:2)
> Que
Cue.
Bad title, bad summary: missing key information (Score:5, Informative)
The buses are fine to drive in winter. The issue is the buses cannot charge in temperatures under 41F at the moment. What is missing is that the buses were able at one point and why. From the [1]article [vermontdai...onicle.com]:
> Clark also explained that the five electric buses were “operating well” until November 2025 when the batteries “were recalled for fire hazard.”
> The recall prompted a software update from New Flyer to “decrease the likelihood for fire” that “included only allowing the bus to charge to 75% and to not allow charging when the battery is below 41 degrees,” Clark explained.
> “Previously we could charge in any temperature to 100%,” Clark said.
> “Since the barrier to charging under 41 degrees is simply a software update, the manufacturer could find a technical solution that could resolve the problem this week,” Clark said. “We are seeking a financial remedy from New Flyer that could lead to litigation if not resolved.”
> “New Flyer has indicated that replacement batteries will be installed within 18-24 months,” Clark said.
The actual problem: The buses need replacement batteries as the current ones pose a fire risk. To allow the buses to operate with existing batteries, software restrictions were installed to not allow the buses to charge under 41F. The software could be changed or the buses could get their replacement batteries sooner. The summary makes it seems like there are zero solutions to the issue.
[1] https://vermontdailychronicle.com/vermont-ev-buses-prove-unreliable-for-transportation-this-winter/
Re: (Score:2)
> The actual problem: The buses need replacement batteries as the current ones pose a fire risk. To allow the buses to operate with existing batteries, software restrictions were installed to not allow the buses to charge under 41F. The software could be changed or the buses could get their replacement batteries sooner. The summary makes it seems like there are zero solutions to the issue.
Another solution: Get buses with proper thermal management systems in their batteries. The batteries should be able to warm themselves to the safe charging temperature using stored power, while driving to the charger.
They may actually have that, and it's some bug in the thermal management system that creates the fire risk, or something similar. But if they don't, that's an actual issue that should be looked into: Why did Vermont buy buses without such a critical cold-weather feature? If that's what's
Re: (Score:2)
It's pretty f**g obvious the problem is with the thermal management.
The company apparently broke the buses on purpose to avoid the problem, and is promising to replace the batteries in 2 years (!) so they can be used again.
Re: (Score:2)
Do you have anything to contribute other to try to rage bait others?
Re: (Score:2)
So again you confirm that you have nothing to contribute
Just tax green house gas emissions (Score:2)
And let the free market decide the best way to solve global warming. Full buses are so much more environmentally friendly you could run them on coal and be better for the environment than all the cars they replace, even if those cars were electric. Cities should only be deciding what busses are the cheapest to run. They shouldn't be betting on technologies or virtue signaling with their purchases.
Re: (Score:2)
The buses around here circulate around mostly empty, I've never seen a published occupancy rate
bus fire vs garage fire (Score:2)
The buses clearly need safer batteries, but in the meantime why not build a steel recharging shed off to one side and put in fire suppression. Then at least the vehicles can be charged.
Whether they are safe to ride, that's another problem !
Re: (Score:2)
"why not build a steel recharging shed off to one side and put in fire suppression"
a) It's a temporary problem, until the manufacture is done with the permanent fix
b) Building a structure takes money that then cannot be spend on other things like providing service or buying buses.
Instead of a neutral assessment.. (Score:2)
..of technical problems, the quote seems to be a political statement from an EV hater
It would be more informative if the actual technical problems were discussed
Given the political nature of the quote, methinks the problems were exaggerated
Article is poop but so are these buses (Score:2)
There is no such thing as a New Flyer SE40. They are model XE40.
The [1]spec sheet [californiahvip.org] tells us that "The battery chemistry is Lithium Nickel Manganese Cobalt (NMC), providing the best balance of energy, power, safety, and life."
NMC is shit, especially for EVs.
Not having a battery heater is shit, especially in climates where it regularly freezes, like Vermont... but also anywhere it can freeze.
I agree that there is fraud involved, in that what New Flyer claims about NMC batteries is false. But they decided to buy t
[1] https://californiahvip.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/AL-MY25-New-Flyer-XE35-XE40-and-XE60-BE-Spec-Sheet-250227.pdf
Hanlon's Razor (Score:2)
A failure of judgement or lack of expertise on the part of the contracting organization doesn't mean they were engaged in fraud. I think we can apply Hanlon's Razor to this:
> Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by neglect.
Re: (Score:2)
I may just be a little pissy about buses because I cannot comprehend how lax the standards are. Many if not most buses still aren't crash tested. When they are, the results seem to be for informational purposes only. It only costs around $1500 to $2500 to add a fire suppression system (mostly closer to the lower end) and a single bus can cost $250k or more yet they are still not mandatory despite how rapidly a bus can burn up. Most of them have plywood floors FFS, including these buses we're talking about h
So you say there's a recall? (Score:2)
As much as I didn't want whatever questionable source that is to get anymore clicks, I had to dig in a little more on the recall.
From what it says, a safety concern with the batteries prompted the initial "recall". The "fix" for that recall was a software update that then prevented charging below 41 deg and limited charging to 75% - and even that only "decreased the likelihood for fire". It didn't actually solve the problem.
The transit GM guy says a fix for the 41 deg charge barrier is "simply a software up
Re: (Score:2)
Obviously if they put the software back to the old version it would fix the 41 degree charge barrier. So yes he is 100% correct that it is "simply a software update".
Diesel heaters (Score:2)
Don't laugh. Diesel heaters are a good solution to keep the batteries and cabin warm. I'm sure some say that's crazy and defeats the purpose of using an EV in the first place, and is an unacceptable compromise, but I strongly disagree. I'm really surprised EVs in cold climates don't embrace this. Sure burning diesel makes EV people uncomfortable, but it's a lot less diesel than an ICE bus would burn, and it lets the EV system work at its most efficient state all winter long. Such a hybrid system makes
But where does the Diesel come from? (Score:2)
Diesel heaters seem impractical. If I understand you correctly you want to burn the Diesel. That means you'll somehow need to put the Diesel inside the bus, or install overhead Diesel lines, or have huge Diesel tanks at every charging station.
It seems easier to erect some sort of "shed" to put the bus in and heat that lightly.
Re: (Score:2)
Cannot park inside. A 5Amp extension cord at 120V and gallon of D can keep a bus warm and toasty for 8 hour of charging with proper planning. That is how you get any heavy truck started in the morning, from a WWII army truck, a 1980s short bus, to a new freightliner, you flex duct enough hot air under the right compartment and it is warm even if not got an internal heat source running. The ICE alternative was to keep one mechanic on duty and idle 8 buses all night at about 3 times the fuel flow. T
Re: (Score:2)
Wow. Where to start. Huge diesel tanks? You do realize bus depos already have diesel tanks fill stations? Further we're not talking large tanks. 5 gallons that you can fill with a jerry can for goodness sake. Does Webasto mean anything to you? If not then you really don't know what I'm talking about. Also the web is full of cheap diesel air heaters (no I'm not talking about construction heaters) that work well and are quite efficient. In fact I've seen some redneck videos, probably intending to be anti-
Re: (Score:2)
Actually it turns out it's not only been deemed practical, but Webasto is selling a product that does exactly this, made exclusively for EV vehicles such as vans: [1]https://www.webasto.com/en-int... [webasto.com]
This is the kind of thing I'm talking about. When you combine cabin heating with warming the entire battery system, you can get full EV range and fast charging at the coldest temperatures for the cost of a tiny amount of diesel per day. Seems like a great idea for the small amount of time each year it's necessary
[1] https://www.webasto.com/en-int/heating/air-heater/range-plus.html
Re: (Score:2)
That is for warming the cabin when the vehicle is on the road.
If it is charging, there is an electric cord right there that can much more cheaply provide the energy to heat it.
Re: (Score:2)
"Diesel heaters are a good solution to keep the batteries and cabin warm. "
Diesel heaters were the primary source of failures in the GMT electric buses before this battery recall.
Re: (Score:2)
Diesel heaters have been used on ICE heavy trucks for decades for cold starting. Webasto made their name in North America selling such heaters. They are used on all sorts of heavy vehicles and agricultural machines where there's no electricity to run a block heater. Webasto isn't the only game in town either.
Re: (Score:2)
I think it will be pretty hard to charge an EV in a location "where there's no electricity to run a block heater". So an electric block heater will work if the purpose is to make charging work.
Shocked! (Score:1)
"I'm shocked! Shocked I say!" - Louie: Casablanca No! Really! Say it ain't so! This is my shocked face :-| Which part do these people not understand: Batteries and cold do NOT mix well. Clearly, these people never took a science class in their lives.
Re: (Score:2)
If you read the article, actually it is 'software that turns off charging when below 41 degrees and cold that don't mix well'. But don't let facts interfere with your rant.
WTF ?? (Score:2)
Who built these EVs without thermal management for the batteries? Lack of thermal management causes many problems with batteries (too hot = bad, too cold = bad). Thermal management systems are a standard piece of kit included in all but the cheapest crappiest EVs on the road. A warmer is standard kit on diesel trucks for cold weather regions since forever... even a company with no EV experience should know better.
Was this a "lowest bidder" design? A cost saving decision?
And Yet They Work Fine In Northern Minnesota (Score:1)
[1]https://www.minnpost.com/great... [minnpost.com]
[1] https://www.minnpost.com/greater-minnesota/2026/02/electric-school-buses-are-bringing-cleaner-quieter-rides-to-students-in-rural-minnesota/
Cold weather and batteries (Score:5, Insightful)
Seem like a uniquely American problem. [1]https://www.cnbc.com/2026/01/0... [cnbc.com]
Are batteries different in Norway? This smells like typical corruption and incompetence.
[1] https://www.cnbc.com/2026/01/02/evs-norway-new-car-sales-hit-96percent-electric-in-2025-as-tesla-dominates.html
Re: Cold weather and batteries (Score:1)
Yup, considering how greedy American capitalists are they cheaped out on the EV busses in the manufacturing, the batteries should be kept in an insulated compartment and kept warm, I bet they are not even insulated from the weather, and how about summer heat how much heat can EV batteries take before failure of some sort
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
> Are batteries different in Norway? This smells like typical corruption and incompetence.
Clearly the batteries delivered are somehow different and the ones delivered to Vermont weren't appropriate. This shouldn't be a question of the officials though. The basic function of a bus is to drive around the place and if it's sold in Vermont that means driving around the place in the cold. A bus that fails that is not of "merchantable quality" (look up the Uniform Commercial Code) and so the company that made them should have to fix them and until they do they have a duty pay for replacements.
Now, US
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
I did a bit of digging. The busses are Canadian, and the batteries are German. A little surprising as you would expect both of those to be used to sub 5C temperatures.
FWIW the ones in Norway use Chinese batteries, and many of the busses are made in China too. They have no issues with low temperatures, and in fact often use NMC batteries because they perform well in cold climates. I don't know what chemistry the ones in these busses are, but it sounds quite old if they can't charge below 5C.
Re: (Score:2)
Nothing surprising. Countries of production doesn't define environmental conditions or project boundaries. This isn't a Canada / German / China issue, it's a project requirements / acceptance testing issue.
Charging batteries has nothing to do with old / new, it has to do with how packs are prepared, assembled and managed on a technical level. You most certainly can get batteries out of China that can't charge below 5C, and you most certainly will get batteries form Germany which can. All you need to do is s
Re: Cold weather and batteries (Score:1)
Nope, EV buses aren't working in any Canadian city either. My guess is that Norway is willing to pay more for electricity while most North American cities are going to expect them to perform the same purpose for the same cost.
This is funny because I got into an argument with someone recently who didn't believe me about not working in Canada.
Working in Canada (Score:5, Informative)
Halifax has had [1]60 electric buses in it's fleet since May of last year [ctvnews.ca] (and yes, they are charged indoors). Maybe people argue with you because you are full of shit.
[1] https://www.ctvnews.ca/atlantic/nova-scotia/article/halifax-transit-adds-60-electric-buses-in-push-toward-zero-emissions/
Re: Working in Canada (Score:1)
So I stand corrected. But Halifax also only goes down to -10 or so. Not really fully representative of a Canadian city.
Re: Working in Canada (Score:5, Informative)
Montreal has 41 fully electric busses. This winter we hit roughly -40 with windchill, and we get around 217cm (85 inches) of snow a year. They're from the same Canadian bus manufacturer (New Flyer) as the Vermont busses, but we charge them inside the garage, so the temperature is not relevant for charging. The reason Vermont can't charge them indoors is due to the limitations of their garage, not their busses.
All that said, Montreal is focusing on replacing all busses with hybrid instead of electric. The bus fleet currently consists of 41 electric, 849 hybrid, and 959 diesel. The transit authority is cash strapped and underfunded and simply can't afford the up-front costs of the fully electrics, but has found that the hybrids are more reliable and dramatically cheaper to maintain than the diesels that they're replacing. Most of the hybrids also have air conditioning, which the diesels don't, which is nice in the summer.
Re: (Score:3)
Here is the thing, nobody on either side of the environmental debate has ever really had an issue with a regenerative breaks, a small battery pack and acceleration motor of a heavy public transport hybrid. If it costs only 30% more than an ICE and lasts 40% longer and costs 20% in general maninace (no break and rotors ever 2 years), and consumes 1/3 less fuel, sign me up for no more bus break sounds. A light hybrid is a joy to drive while minimizing fuel burn and providing all the electric heat one
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> The point is perhaps we should listen to the people who stated total EV tech might never reach the predicted nirvana in some climates.
"never" and "nirvana" are both excessively strong.
There will undoubtedly be teething issues as we learn how to build EVs for different environments. In this case, it sounds like these busses really need proper battery thermal management systems that are capable of warming the batteries to the required temperature for charging. Done right, that increases charging time only trivially because the batteries should use stored energy to warm themselves on the way to the charging station. My car (Tesla) does t
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Windchill temperatures aren't relevant for this discussion. At least not until rate of heat dissipation is a key component.
I got nothing against electric busses done right; but actual temperature is relevant for the discussion, not windchill.
(If the temperature is -30C, and windchill is -50C, your corpse will be found outside at -30, not -50C. The rate it kills you is affected by windchill, but not the final temperature.)
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The actual air temperature during that cold snap, we had days that had a high of -20. The point was just that Montreal, the second largest city in the country, experiences cold weather, and gets a lot of snow, and the electric busses are working fine here. The reason we didn't go whole-hog on them (despite there being a plan to do so) is because the transit authority simply couldn't afford the expense in the end, and chose hybrids, which offered only some of the benefits, but represented a cost reduction co
Re: Working in Canada (Score:2)
What is it with Canadians and talking about windchill as if itâ(TM)s the real temperature? Itâ(TM)s not. The Russians and Swedes I know donâ(TM)t do it. Is it some attempt to sound more macho? The wind chill is just an indication of how quickly heat dissipates. If you roll over dead in a ditch, your corpse wonâ(TM)t cool to the temperature of the wind chill, and neither will those batteries.
Not to dismiss your point, I know from personal experience how cold it gets in Montreal. The
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So all the energy you save with the electric bus you spend keeping the garage warm.
It still might make sense given the amount of hydropower you have up there. Or you could put a data center next to the bus garage.
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There are lots of them in Colorado. Here's a [1]report from Kremmling, CO [youtube.com] which is one of the coldest places in the state which has been running electric buses for years.
From the story "A lot of the winter days will start off 20 or 30 below zero and bus drivers say at those temperatures, it's hard to get diesel buses running, but their electric buses are ready to roll right out the door." also they note that they have a significantly lower operating cost than diesel.
Certainly you have to design EVs to wo
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Is1_uhQ7Lw
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Or were they choosing the only vehicles they could afford?
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Good point! Let's see just how [1]poorly EVs are performing in the cold in Norway [motor.no].
Just because they're selling doesn't mean they perform well in the cold. That isn't a direct correlation...
[1] https://www.motor.no/bil/rekkeviddetesten-vinteren-2026/344177
Re: Cold weather and batteries (Score:2)
Norway subsidized EV purchases and taxes ICE vehicles, EVs are exempt from those taxes.
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No it's just that the temperatures in Norway's major cities, being coastal, are more moderate than a lot of the coldest climates in North America.
Elektrotrucker just documented a long-haul electric semi trip through Scandinavian countries. In Sweden he had relatively warm temps, only -5 or so. By the time he ended up in Finland it was -35. He had a major problem keeping the cabin warm at those temps. Battery thermal management systems consumed a lot of power too. His efficiency dropped from about 1 kwh/
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One other thing was that Elektrotrucker found that regenerative braking was a bit sketchy in icy conditions. But that's not all that different from drivers having to be careful with jake brakes in icy conditions too.
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Also cruise controls and automatic lane keeping systems are not recommended for use on icy or slippy conditions since they can do unexpected sudden acceleration or steering wheel movement.
Re: Cold weather and batteries (Score:2)
Except you aren't relying on cruise control to get you as far as you need to go.
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Not a uniquely American problem. It's a specific project related problem. Basic requirements not written down and not applied. Selection criteria not correctly selected.
This shit happens the world over both in government and private industry. Whether you're buying trains in Spain that don't fit through tunnels (real thing which killed a project), or buying hydrogen charging stations without specifying how many vehicles need to be filled at a certain rate (a real thing which killed a project). Every place ha
Re:Cold weather and batteries (Score:4)
I'm afraid the battery powered busses in Oslo, Norway are dogshite during cold winters. We've been complaining about them for years. Same issue as described in this article. Pushed through before tech was properly ready.
And I'm saying that as an electric car loving Norwegian who has two electric cars and wouldn't go back to fossil cars no matter what. :P
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Exactly. What did they buy and who did they buy it from? A "Preferred" supplier?? And - Reagan was talking to people in the 60's who didn't know how the Great Society was going to gut our cities.