Canada Unveils Auto Industry Plan in Latest Pivot Away From US (bbc.com)
- Reference: 0180743456
- News link: https://news.slashdot.org/story/26/02/06/0722232/canada-unveils-auto-industry-plan-in-latest-pivot-away-from-us
- Source link: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cvgd2j80klmo
The plan includes financial incentives for carmakers to invest in Canada, a new tariff credit scheme for manufacturers like General Motors and Toyota, and the reintroduction of EV buyer rebates. Canada will also enact stricter vehicle emissions standards and has set a goal of EVs comprising 90% of car sales by 2040. Carney at the same time scrapped a 2023 EV sales mandate introduced by former PM Justin Trudeau that automakers had called too costly.
The announcements follow a deal last month with China to ease tariffs on Chinese EVs and an agreement with South Korea to encourage Korean car manufacturing in Canada. Roughly 90% of Canadian-made vehicles are exported to the US, and thousands of auto workers have lost their jobs since Trump imposed 25% tariffs on Canadian cars and parts last year.
[1] https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cvgd2j80klmo
Only the first step (Score:3)
There is a news story, probably NYT or Politico or BBC (I cannot recall where exactly) that the rejection of the U.S. from Canada is catching on with the rest of the world. There are apps in Europe that will tell you whether some company builds stuff with U.S. parts. Way to go, el Bunko. Are you tired of (*^(&^% winning yet?
Re: (Score:2)
Meanwhile they use Chinese electronics and buy energy from Russia.
TDS is a powerful thing.
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Imagine buying from a country whose leader doesn't believe in democracy, oversees vast human rights abuses and has people who oppose him shot in the streets....then there's China too.
Re: Only the first step (Score:4, Funny)
Oh stop your TDS! Trump has made those all into wonderful things!
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Canada certainly does not buy energy from Russia.
We do buy electronics from China (as does the USA). So what? China has never threatened to annex Canada. So although it's a disgusting dictatorship, China is at the moment less of a strategic threat to Canada than the USA is.
Re: Only the first step (Score:2)
Yup people have been saying that for 50 years yet here we are.
Re:Only the first step (Score:5, Informative)
Jesus you fucking Trumpers are a pack of idiots. Christ almighty, we actually have an economist running the country, you have a fucking moron knee deep in dementia, who was a raving idiot even when he wasn't rotting.
Re:Only the first step (Score:5, Informative)
Don't forget the Tariff of Nottingham also shit his pants on live TV.
Big man, strong man, smelly man that had to end a press session early.
Imagine if Biden shit his pants on live TV like that.
He didn't, but I'm happy to talk about how Trump did.
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Want to take a little bet, sinij? $1000 says you're full of shit.
"Pivot away from US" (Score:2)
Still continues to give US-based auto manufacturers a bunch of tax payer money...
I guess the Canadian Gov't still hasn't learned that you can give GM, Ford etc. all the incentives and money you want, but they will still close Canadian factories and move production back to the US at their whim. Also, I wouldn't hold your breath on any increase in EV chargers. Other than Tesla whose supercharging network seems to be growing at lightning pace, all past attempts to throw Gov't money at increasing chargers
Sounds like a plan alright (Score:2)
Sounds like a plan to wind down the Canadian auto industry.
Master class is political division. Let the market get flooded with cheap imports so most folks don't care, 'cars are cheaper then ever!' pretty much assures nobody will stand up for the auto workers losing jobs and future.
Typical political class thinking, sell off the things my grandparents built to pay for power and privilege today, with no thought spared for consequences of de-instustrialization tomorrow, or religious like faith that the rest of
Re:Sounds like a plan alright (Score:4, Insightful)
Suddenly competition in the market is bad. How odd.
2040 objective (Score:2)
2026: Announce objective of 90% EV by 2040
2027-2035: Do nothing
2036: Announce that the 2040 objective of 90% is not realistic and must be scrapped. But all current politicians involved are going to be out of office/retired.
That's basically what they did with the 2035 objective.
How about they set a realistic objective for the next 4 years (one mandate)? It could be like having 15% EV by 2030.
Pivot away from US ? (Score:5, Insightful)
No, it is clearly the US that are shutting the doors. Very obviously, the Trump administration wants to go it alone - either others accept extortionous terms (why should they?) or nothing. Forget a fair deal. Ok, then don't be surprised if the rest of the world gives the US the middle finger. All the US has going for themselves is momentum, and that's quickly drying up. Trust is long gone, good luck to get it back within our lifetimes.
Excellent job agent Krasnov is doing for his master.
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That's what Russia does, and the Putin puppet named Donald Trump is following orders very well.
Turn Around is Fair Play (Score:2)
This is brilliant. It's just what the Chinese did with Tesla. 1) Invite them in, 2) Learn how to make their cars 3) Use that knowledge to launch local versions. China now makes arguably better electric cars than Tesla, and it looks like the Canadians are going to learn how to do it too. They certainly have the raw materials for it.
Where does Canada think it will sell these EVs? (Score:2)
If the US market is not open, then where does Canada think it will sell these EVs? Their internal market is limited (40M population - about the size of California). EU will not take imports of automobiles (but will happily sell you their own Audis or Mercedes). Korea and Japan do not accept foreign autos. The rest of the world is flooded with cheap BYD EVs. Beyond Carney's bravado and posturing of standing up to Trump, Canada's better interest is to reconcile with the USA.
Re: Where does Canada think it will sell these EVs (Score:2)
It's actually pretty obvious that is Trump's whole strategy and the only way to 'reconcile' with him is to give him exactly what he wants. He is negotiating based on the weight of tariffs that probably isn't even legal. Any country that is 'cooperating' with him is just trying to appease him and bide their time.
Canada needs to at least wait for the tariff decision from the supreme Court before doing anything.
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> Canada needs to at least wait for the tariff decision from the supreme Court before doing anything.
The tariff decision from the SC won't mean anything, because they have already found other justifications for the tariffs. So don't expect tariffs to be discontinued even if he loses.
Re: Where does Canada think it will sell these EV (Score:2)
With each plan its a lot more work and harder to sell to the public with midterms coming. Also it's Trump so it's probably a bluff. At any rate, you can't do everything a bully wants because he may hit you. That's just not how it works with adults.
Re: Where does Canada think it will sell these EV (Score:2)
Canada has always done far better than the US in economic hard times. Americans will hurt more than Canadians will. The tariff for steel and aluminium has already raised the price of cars by an avg of $12k. You do realize that 40% of the gas in your tank is from Canada. The Venezuela thing was a rediculous piece of theater. That country is going to take 10 years just to build enough infrastructure to extract oil, then there is crime and corruption. The oil companies don't want any part of that.
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Cheeto has shown he rarely holds up his end of the bargain. Now you're standing there dumbfounded as to why countries aren't doing business with the US anymore.
Re: Where does Canada think it will sell these EV (Score:2)
Exactly. It's not like it's just doing what Trump says once and he will be happy. You get under his thumb once and you are never getting out. I don't accept "kiss goodbye to everything you know" as a cost of negotiation.
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Bullshit. For most of Canada's existence, the USA had incredibly high tariffs on our goods. The recent period of relatively free trade was a historical anomaly.
We survived before and we'll survive again. And when the USA comes sniffing around for critical minerals, we can tell them to negotiate a free trade agreement or fuck off.
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You don't even live in Canada and you act like the country is going to fold up tomorrow. I've seen some cult followers in my day but holy shit you're racing to the front of the line to get that first glass of kool aid.
Re: Where does Canada think it will sell these EVs (Score:2)
Considering that the US attacked Canada, why is it Canada's job to reconcile?
All this is just the consequences of American actions.
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The problem with giving in to the US is that it ends up being just one more step towards giving in completely. That’s pretty much never going to happen.
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Trump's physical and mental health degrades every day. If he doesn't drop dead of a stroke in a few months he'll be impeached and removed from office after the midterms. The best strategy is to stand up to him now and delay making any agreements with the USA until his replacement takes over.
It's USMCA renewal time (Score:3)
Sorry to throw some cold water on all the emotional comments in this story, but just remember that the North American trade agreement (USMCA/CUSMA) is up for renewal this year, and it's standard practice before any negotiation for both sides to try to position themselves on more stable footing. When you want to negotiate, you need to go into it with a list of things you can negotiate away in order to get what you want. Every (smart) negotiating team from every country does this. Canada has been making small but significant agreements with other countries both as a hedge against the US going its own way, and also so that it has something to offer the US in exchange for a continued USMCA agreement. "Sure, we'll buy the F-35's and put more barriers in place for Chinese EVs if you agree to re-approve CUSMA for 4 years." And if the US decides to walk away, then Canada still has some other trading options it can fall back on. It's just a pragmatic thing to do.
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The gov't is still operating under the, "The budget will balance itself" mentality.
I don't think it's because they are financially inept. I think it's because they're corrupt and they love enriching buddies or those who have some dirt on them.
Re: Canada cannot afford this (Score:2)
How in debt are people living in Toronto who have an old house on a postage stamp lot that they had to sink $1 million or more into? 400k isn't actually that bad at all.
Re: Canada cannot afford this (Score:2)
The point is that if it is managable and considered realistic for families then it's not unreasonable for the country. Keep in mind that money the government spends is also an investment in the health and well being of its people. It also circulates through the economy so it's not like a house.
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How do you define "out of control". Canada's credit rating, even with the economic assaults of our neighbor, remains very good and very stable. There's no massive hike in borrowing costs.
It's almost as if you're just making shit up.
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Exactly. Canada's debt-to-GDP ratio is lower than the USA's.
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Maybe running a government and running a family are different?
Re: Canada cannot afford this (Score:2)
And it helps every family when you spend.... So?
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People really don't understand the difference between spending money, and investing money in things that will end up making money. Picture in the USA if the "how will we pay for it?!?" crowd were in charge when the Interstate highway system was built. Of course, back then, the very wealthy had a top marginal tax rate of 95%, so the wealthy people were paying for a lot of things they are not paying for now. These days, someone making $50,000 per year pays a higher percentage of their income in taxes th
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You're going to have to be more specific.
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Ok, I [1]found it. [truthsocial.com] Your dishonesty in describing what it is made it difficult to even understand what to look for. It is a repost of an X video about elections, where at 59 second mark the animation depicting Obamas as monkeys is flashed for about a second. The image is abhorrent, but there no indication whatsoever that Trump was aware this was included in the video as it is very easy to overlook, as was evidenced by difficulty finding it even when told about its existence.
[1] https://truthsocial.com/@realDonaldTrump/posts/116021857490657707
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Do you trust the white house press secretary who said "White House Press Secretary said: “This is from an internet meme video depicting President Trump as the King of the Jungle and Democrats as characters from The Lion King. Please stop the fake outrage and report on something today that actually matters to the American public.” and not "Donald Trump made no such post"?
But otherwise you can find every news source reporting this and it seems like the whitehouse is at least proud to defend postin
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> Did you see today's news?
That is an extremely vague reference. There was a lot of news.
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I assume they mean Trump tweeting the Obamas depicted as apes.
Re:Canada cannot afford this (Score:4, Informative)
Obama would have been impeached in 10 minutes had he told all the honkys to chill out.
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> Obama would have been impeached in 10 minutes had he told all the honkys to chill out.
I'm surprised they didn't do it because he wore that tan suit.
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For now. At some point, Trump will piss off enough other nations that they'll stop buying US treasury bills, or even sell some of them off. Then the $38T US national debt will look a whole lot less sustainable.
Re: Mmhmmm (Score:5, Insightful)
The Norwegians did
Re: Mmhmmm (Score:2)
I have been seeing a lot of articles this year about the range you get from an EV after it parks in -30c over night. Sounds to me like you will be lucky to get home.
Re: Tariffs and rebates? (Score:2)
I know I may never be able to afford one in my lifetime. I am looking at doing a second across-Canada move in my life with belongings in a tailor and three pets. I'm very afraid of one day having to try it with an EV.
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Wait until you see what the US government pays the big auto makers.
From coast to coast. (Score:2)
I would expect Canada to have the same "large country" problem we do and go more towards hybrids. They also have cheap hydro as well which helps EV adoption.
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"Cheapish" hydro, depending where you live and the time of day you're using electricity.
It can be as high as $0.40 / kWh during the day and around $0.04 during the night. Which sounds amazing until you realize the Hydro company tacks on a BUNCH of surcharges, fees etc.
For example, last month, I paid $135 in "Delivery" fees, $19 in "Regulatory" fees. That represents a fairly hefty percentage of my total bill. They might reduce the per kWh rate, but you can bet they'll make up for it in add-on fees.
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Norway has the same "large country" problem as Canada, and they are 96% EV. You can generate electricity everywhere. But you can't refine oil into gasoline everywhere.
And no, don't tell me that Canada is much larger. That's not the "large country" problem. The large country problem means: if you are driving more than a day in the same direction, do you pass enough infrastructure for your mode of transport? And that's as valid for Norway as it is for Canada.
Re: From coast to coast. (Score:2)
But how many EVs are away from the coast in Norway? As far as I understand it, most people live on the coast. Also I'm going to go out on a limb and say you can take trains around Norway if you are going somewhere an EV may be awkward.
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Norway's cost is unlike coasts you might know. Norway's coast is basically a mountain diving into the sea. No beaches, no flat land, except at some spots around the mounds of rivers, and that's where the settlements are. Between two settlements along the coast, you either have a ferry, or a tunnel. Most of Norway's coast does not have a road at all, because there is not enough space, and the E6, which goes through most of Norway, does follow the coast only occasionally, but mostly follows valleys through th
Re: From coast to coast. (Score:2)
Yet there is room for Oslo which is on the coast. The point being that it hardly goes below -10 there. How many people actually live and have EVs where it is -30c?
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This is relevant because people are uniformly distributed in Canada and Nunavut has the same population density as the Quebec Cityâ"Windsor Corridor...
Re: From coast to coast. (Score:2)
There are way more people in Canada that are not within 4 hours from the US border. Millions. There are millions that live in cities not on the TransCanada highway where they put chargers. There are no trains here and taking an airplane has gotten rediculously expensive. I would prefer my mode of travel to be as reliable as possible with as little dependency on infrastructure as possible.
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85% of the population lives in urban areas, the average commute time is well under half an hour. Quit making shit up.
Re: From coast to coast. (Score:2)
I don't care what my average commute time is. I buy a vehicle for all times.
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For towing your imaginary boat from coast to coast?
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So you own a semi tractor for when you need to move house?
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You can go anywhere in an EV in Norway. Why spend your life wondering what the answers to these questions are, when you can simply go on A Better Route Planner and see for yourself? Plug in any start and end point, and what car you have, and it will tell you charging you need to do.
I did a quick check, with a cheap EV, the MS S5. You can get a brand new long range one for about 23k GBP including tax, or about $25k before tax. One end of Norway to the other, right up into the Arctic Circle, is no problem at
Re: From coast to coast. (Score:2)
That train will not be coast to coast in my lifetime. Too many areas where the found is just too unstable.
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Doesn't the Canadian Pacific Railway already exist? Since it does, building the railroad, and having each province cover its share of the expense, could make it a reality
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The USA doesn't have high speed rail outside of the occasional talk about something getting built.
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Not quite the same. Canada's population is spread out from Nova Scotia to Vancouver, most along the US border. The bulk of Norway's population lives south of Trondheim. So Norwegians who are not going on mountaineering expeditions to the north of their country can cover the entire populated part of their country in their EVs, as well as distribute them evenly
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Around 85% of Canadians live in urban areas, and the average one-way commute time is around 27 minutes (and about 9km or about 5.6 miles). It's a bit bigger in larger cities like Vancouver or Toronto, but then again those cities have public transit, so many people can get by without having to drive a car, at least to work.
Most people do not live 50 miles from the workplace, so an EV would be sufficient. With more Chinese imports about to appear, my next vehicle will almost certainly be an EV, and I'll keep
Re: From coast to coast. (Score:2)
People buy a vehicle to serve all their purposes, not 90% of their purposes. Putting it another way, if the vehicle is going to be useless to me 10% of the time, it had better be 10% cheaper.
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That sounds about right. Except maybe for people who don't drive anywhere except to their nearby pharmacy and grocery store
Re:From coast to coast. (Score:5, Interesting)
I get the high cost of expanding into the great wilderness for housing etc. but the fact everyone is jammed in so tight into cities is crazy considering just how much land mass there is. You only have to drive 20 minutes out of the Toronto core to realize there actually is a bunch of space but they're still cramming people into 600 ft apartments in Toronto and making them pay $700/month in condo fees and $2,500 in rent for the privilege.
Even the drive from London to Windsor is more reminiscent of a post-apocalyptic barren wasteland than a 1st world country. There are definitely farms which should be protected but there's also SO much crown land that no person has set foot upon that could be better used to build houses for people
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Sprawl is incredibly expensive to service. Suburbs are probably the most inefficient way to deal with housing ever invented, between having to deliver utilities, expand fire protection and policing, and just plain road maintenance, there's a reason that we should eschew suburbs and sprawl in favor of density.
Re:From coast to coast. (Score:4, Insightful)
> Sprawl is incredibly expensive to service. Suburbs are probably the most inefficient way to deal with housing ever invented, between having to deliver utilities, expand fire protection and policing, and just plain road maintenance, there's a reason that we should eschew suburbs and sprawl in favor of density.
Not me...I gave up sharing walls with other people when I quit being a broke college student having to live in apartments.
I like having a nice big back yard fenced in for my dog to run around in, to hold crawfish boils and parties with my friends, to keep my large log burning offset smoker for BBQ....Big Green Egg XL for a lump charcoal grill...be able to plant a veggie garden, etc.
No thank you, I'd much rather have a garage to keep my bicycle and motorcycle and brewing equipment...a nice driveway, etc. and elbow room between myself and my fine neighbors who are all great.
And if nothing else, I didn't spend a lifetime building a good audio system to not exercise the dB range from time to time....and not living in a cramped apartment I won't annoy my neighbors....too much.
But hey thankfully in the US, it is a LARGE nation, and we've plenty of room and cities where people can live how they want to live....rural, small cities, regular cities and dense urban ones like NYC.
So, live like you want to live....and I will too. I'll only draw the line when someone tries to fucking FORCE me into a living style.
Re: From coast to coast. (Score:2)
Amen.
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Your way of life is effectively subsidized, and at some point it simply will not be affordable. The difficulty supplying water alone in many parts of the US will basically cause suburbs to die. Your notion of personal freedoms cannot override reality, no matter how often you pound the table.
Re: From coast to coast. (Score:2)
Then let the wealthy go first and make sacrifices, since they have the resources to do that. Then I will follow once there are mature solutions to this. Carbon tax in Canada was beautiful because the wealthy could drive there yachts and were contributing proportionately with everyone else.
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> Then let the wealthy go first and make sacrifices
Yeah, like that will ever happen! Lol. Until it is immoral to be stinking rich, nothing will change.
Re: From coast to coast. (Score:2)
Ok so the conversation ends there then.
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It would seem that after a suburb exceeds a certain population level, it would become its own city, producing its own utilities, fire safety and policing, as well as other civic amenities. The original city that it grew from - it needn't be eternally tied to that
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People have raised families in all manner of housing arrangements. Don't confuse cultural norms with actual human requirements.
Re: From coast to coast. (Score:2)
But people still need to drive there. Who will put chargers where there is nothing but black flies?
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People aren't stopping in the middle of nowhere to look at black flies. that's just the middle part between where they started and where they are going. Putting a charging station between two major areas is a great idea, regardless of how desolate the middle part is.
Re: From coast to coast. (Score:2)
If you have a road going through a 400km area of nothingness and many EVs coming through there are going to have less than 400km range then you need a charger there somewhere. Or are we going to just abandon public routes because EVs? This will cut off entire towns and villages. There are many roads that are just on ice that go for hundreds of kilometers that are vital to communities.
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Yes we've all seen "Ice Road Truckers" on TV. No one is suggesting that those or other vehicles in remote communities be replaced by EVs (unless there is a major advance in technology). Saying we can move to 90% EVs because of the 2% of niche case that can't use EVs is a disingenuous argument.
Re: From coast to coast. (Score:2)
Ok but if we move to 90% EVs then eventually someone will need to drive that with an EV. You are suggesting we don't talk about glaring problems with the technology and just accept being forced into it with obvious hindrances?
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Battery technology IS improving, so by the time we get to that 90% point, we will probably see 400+ mile ranges from EVs.
Re: From coast to coast. (Score:2)
I'm really wonder how many "no this time they are doing solid state batteries really" articles I'm going to read before they happen.
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The thing that I'd be worried about is that when you get to that EV charging station in the middle of nowhere, it's out of service and you're basically screwed.
Maybe it got hit by a snow plow. Maybe it got vandalized by some anti EV luddites. Maybe the company who built it just can't afford to maintain it anymore. Either way, you're still screwed.
Re: From coast to coast. (Score:2)
Well yes so now there needs to be two or three times the required chargers along the route.
Re: From coast to coast. (Score:2)
And there ain't going to be any Internet for miles around either.
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> And there ain't going to be any Internet for miles around either.
Ok I'm with ya on all the other comments and arguments, except this one.
I grew up before there WAS an internet.....being without it is no big deal.
Sure it makes life fun, but its no big deal to go without it for spans of time.
Re: From coast to coast. (Score:2)
Pretty much all chargers rely on phone apps and Internet access as far as I understand, and many EV drivers say they need to use their cars displays to find chargers
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How does that argument not also apply to gas stations in the middle of nowhere?
Re: From coast to coast. (Score:2)
Gas stations with snacks in the middle of nowhere are a much more profitable business and also require much less power than chargers in the middle of nowhere. So they are much more prevalent. Also if you know you are going into an area without gas you have the option of carrying some with you.
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People have to be at EV chargers for 15+ minutes so it makes no sense to not put snacks at the hypothetical EV charger in the middle of nowhere.
Re: From coast to coast. (Score:2)
Well the reality of that involves a lot of math. The electricity price that people pay to charge needs to support the massive infrastructure to bring the electricity there plus manning the station and having an employee there in a place that is desolate. That could work, or it could make it prohibitavely expensive for most people to charge anyway.
Re: From coast to coast. (Score:2)
If you have a lot of equipment and customers there you will want an employee there to serve as a deterrent and witness to crimes, even if it's just a security guard and the snacks are automated.
But it makes more sense to put a larger concession there, like one of those combined fast food operations. That is, the same kind of stuff you would have at a gas station.
It also makes more sense to have at least two locations on a long stretch.
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It does, they've just been around long enough that folks don't run into it as often unless they're road tripping out in the southwest where the signage has to very explicitly tell folks "no you really won't make it if you don't fill up at this exit" Might become more common for the latter once EVs hit a higher threshold and some of the small freeway exit gas stations fold up
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I live in southern BC. We haven't had a snowfall here that lasted more than a few hours, and almost the entire winter has been above 0.
Re: From coast to coast. (Score:2)
Southern BC is probably one of the very warmest places in Canada. It's clear that the whole Pacific coast is better.
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Tell that to the people in Norway where EV adoption is through the roof...