I agree with much of what you just wrote.

At the end of WWII Europe was given safety guarantees called the US Nuclear Umbrella that did not require them to keep huge armies.

Although, during the Cold War most European nations did have significant armies but after the fall of the Soviet Union they quickly started to spent their money on more profitable subjects.

Then this criminal Putin came to power but heh, we have a NATO chapter 5 and like in WWII the US will come to our rescue, one of the reasons most countries did not invest in nuclear weapons.

But now along comes this unusual friend of Putin, Trump, and he wants to retreat to his side of the Atlantic.

Many but not all European nations realize they'll have to invest in and set up their own defense, just a pity not all see the need for rearmament and some like Viktor Orban look at Putin as a trading partner, Orban already gave up on an independent legal system and free press so the Russian system is not so different, right?

Joe Biden when speaking to the Senate in 1995 about American getting involved in Bosnia; This part is at 12:58 but really the whole thing is really compelling, Biden makes a very enthusiastic case for America's role as you describe (and really it also lines up to Ukraine today in my opinion, particularly since Europe is uniting around it and we should be supporting them for the effort.)

[1]https://www.c-span.org/clip/se... [c-span.org]

What is the message we send to the world if we stand by and we say we will let it continue to happen here in this place but it is not in our interest? We do not fear that it will spread? I am not here to tell you that, if we do not act, it will spread and cause a war in Europe--tomorrow or next year. But I am here to tell you that within the decade, it will cause the spread of war like a cancer, and the collapse of the Western alliance. What is so important about the Western alliance? NATO for NATO's sake so that we can beat our breast?

What I am about to say is going to cause me great difficulty if I am reelected and come back here as the ranking member or chairman of the Foreign Relations Committee. But Europe cannot stay united without the United States. There is no moral center in Europe.

When in the last two centuries have the French, or the British, or the Germans, or the Belgians, or the Italians moved in a way to unify that continent to stand up to this kind of genocide? When have they done it? The only reason anything is happening now is because the United States of America finally--finally--is understanding her role.

[1] https://www.c-span.org/clip/senate-highlight/user-clip-biden-about-bosnia-in-dec-1995/5140297

What is not said enough about this post-WWII security arrangement in which the US plays a large role in transatlantic defense, is that this is not simply just a "cost" that the US absorbs. The US has profited ENORMOUSLY off of this arrangement, in multiple ways.

First of all, much of the defense spending goes back into the American economy. Second, the US gets to sell weapons to its allies around the world. Third, the US gets tremendous soft power and influence to shape foreign governments' policies in ways that are friendly to US interests. Those things, put together, are why the US has maintained its dominant role in global geopolitics and economy since WWII.

And Trump/MAGA are incapable of understanding this. They are only interested in the short term reward of extortion for their own personal gain and ego. They've already killed the goose that lays the golden egg.

America's economic and military allies have realized that the US is no longer a reliable partner. This is not just about Europe feeling resentful that they have to pay for their own defense. It is a grim understanding that US idiocracy has destroyed all trust. That loss of trust is NOT coming back--not for many generations. That's why there is so much diplomatic manuvering going on between Western non-US countries to strengthen existing ties. By then, the consequences of the myopically self-centered isolationist beliefs of US conservatives will have relegated the US to a bit player on the world stage, incapable of influencing global politics, as other countries (e.g. China) fill in the power vacuum.

The reason why the US has so willingly invested so much into NATO and into defense in general, is because they have, by far, reaped the greatest rewards.

> I appreciate the average American's sentiment who want Europe to pay for its own defense. However, there's a lot of American history in the 20th century and before which brought us to this point deliberately. After being drawn into two huge world wars, started by member states of a continent that had continually been at war with themselves, the United States came up with a plan to prevent it from happening again. They invited everyone into an alliance structure where anyone could trade with anyone else, and the US would guarantee free navigation of the oceans so they didn't need big navies, and would provide security guarantees so that the countries of Europe didn't feel the need to arm themselves to the teeth. This arrangement is expensive for the US, but not so expensive as a world war 3. And it worked to prevent WW3 for many decades. Now that the generations who fought those wars are gone, we've forgotten the lessons, and I'm afraid we're doomed to repeat them. European have not evolved. Their geographic and political reality encourages wars among their own states. And as much as the US wants to stay out of it, they invariably get dragged back in every time.

Well, as the EU becomes buffer states of Russia, will the US need to help? It is apparent that the EU and its citizens believe that the US is a backwater country, full of fat stupid people who are the most evil humans on th planet. We are treated every day to EU supremacy, where any topic about Rooshia or China gets turned into our fault or a whataboutism within a few posts.

You will come a buffer state, and you will be happier, because the US will leave you alone. You won!, You are no longer under the h

The American sentiment that its allies should pay more for military defense is only half the sentiment. The other unspoken and uncomfortable truth is that the US (well, mostly Trump) expects to retain full hegemony in the "alliance." However, the more other countries increase their military commitment, the more their independence from the US will grow.

Trump only knows bully tactics, but as with TACO tariffs, his assumption that the bullied will never fight back is sometimes wrong.

How much of WWII did the US pay for? Anyone know?

Hmm. And America pressured europe to buy all its weapons and technology from America. Sometimes they were even caught bribing the governments.

Forget about the Epstein files. Release his latest MRI results. They don't give you a cognitive assessment and MRI if you're healthy.

> A first step HAS to be figuring out how to re-integrate the UK into European strategic discussions, without entangling UK in European social and economic nets.

Classic brexiteer logic. I am pretty the UK is welcome "re-integrate into European strategic discussions" as much as she wants, just don't expect the continent to pay for it.

Eastern Europe was screaming about how dangerous this was, but they weren't listened to.

One of the most insane things is how after Russia's surprisingly poor military performance in the Georgian war, the Merkel government was disturbed not that Russia invaded Georgia, but at the level of disarray in the Russian army, and sought a deliberate policy of improving the Russian military. They perceived Russia as a bulkwark against e.g. Islamic extremism, and as a potential strategic partner. They supported for example Rheinmetal building a modern training facility in Russia and sent trainers to work with the Russian military.

With Georgia I could understand (though adamantly disagreed) how some dismissed it as a "local conflict" because it could be spun as "Georgia attacking an innocent separatist state and Russia just keeping their alliances". But after 2014 there was no viable spin that could disguise Russia's imperial project. Yet so many kept sticking their fingers in their years going, "LA LA LA, I CAN'T HEAR YOU!" and pretending like we could keep living as we were before. It was delusional and maddening.

The EU has three times Russia's population and an order of magnitude larger of an economy. In any normal world, Russia should be terrified of angering Europe, not the other way around. But our petty differences, our shortsightedness, our adamant refusal to believe deterrence is needed, much less to pay to actually deter or even understand what that means... we set ourselves up for this.

And I say this to in no way excuse the US's behavior. The US was doing the same thing as us (distance just rendered Russia less of a US trading partner) and every single president wanted to do a "reset" of relations with Russia, which Russia repeatedly used to weaken western defenses in Europe. And it's one thing for the US to say to Europe "You need to pay more for defense" (which is unarguable), even to set realistic deadlines for getting defense spending up, but it's an entirely different thing to just come in and abandon an ally right in the middle of their deepest security crisis since World War II. It's hard to describe to Americans how betrayed most Europeans feel at America right now. The US organized and built the world order it desired (even the formation of the EU was strongly promoted by the US), and then just ripped it out from under our feet when it we're under attack.

A friend once described Europe in the past decades as having been "a kept woman" to America. And indeed, life can be comfortable as a kept woman, and both sides can benefit. America built bases all over Europe to project global power; got access to European militaries for their endeavours, got reliable European military supply chains, etc and yet remained firmly in control of NATO policy; maintained itself as the world's reserve currency; were in a position that Europe could never stop them from doing things Europeans disliked (for example, from invading Iraq); and on and on - while Europe decided that letting the US dominate was worth being able to focus on ourselves. But a kept woman has no real freedom, no real security, and your entire life can come crashing down if you cross them or they no longer want you.

> After the 'fall of the wall', Europe, particularly Germany, believed that war on European soil was unimaginable, and that Russia would turn into an at least semi-democratic state, with economic ties motivating political reforms. So they stopped spending on defense, started buying Russian energy, and generally positioned themselves to their current position. (I visualize an ostrich, head in the sand, ass exposed to the air!)

It sounds like you believe that the Russian practice of setting up buffer states was a US lie.

Poland, Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Romania, and errrrm East Germany. They might have a different opinion on Russian peacefulness, and for at least some of us, there was a reason that the North Atlantic Treaty Organization was set up.

Europe is pretty clear - they don't like us. Maybe Europe should consider rejuvenating the Warsaw pact, or more accurately the Treaty of Friendship, Cooperation and Mu

> After the 'fall of the wall', Europe, particularly Germany, believed that war on European soil was unimaginable, and that Russia would turn into an at least semi-democratic state, with economic ties motivating political reforms. So they stopped spending on defense, started buying Russian energy, and generally positioned themselves to their current position.

they actually profiteered quite a bit from the ussr collapsing, specially with yeltsin. they took over very lucrative privatizations on massive scale, pretty much free access to natural resources and energy security, they got a massive market for consumer products, cashed in old debt from the ussr and expanded their political influence to great extent, not to mention the lucrative grift of rampant corruption underlying each of those aspects. putin managed to throw a wrench into most of that, which is proba

- Creating common currency (Remember that EU is not a single country)

- Border-free travel thanks to the Schengen area

- Keeping peace in EU (Europe used to have a lot of wars)

- Creating single market inside EU (benefits which Britannia noticed after brexit)

- Connecting the EU into the same electricity network.

- Common charger (Just adding this, because I like charging my devices with the same USB-C charger)

And they implicate Trump in pedophilia and child rape. We learned that from the Epstein file leaks we already have.

We all had a good laugh about Jeffrey Epstein talking about Donald Trump giving Clinton a blowjob but that was obviously just an exaggeration for a fact. The real takeaway is that Jeffrey Epstein knew that Trump had compromat in the hands of Vladimir Putin and the Russian government.

It's painfully obvious that Epstein didn't kill himself. He had a ton of leverage against the president o

And Europe is a paper mouse

> Economically they have nothing going for them but oil, and militarily they needed help from North Fucking Korea with an invasion that should have taken 2 weeks but has dragged on for over 3 years with no end in sight. It's a paper tiger.

Yeah, I came here to say this.

Europe is still dependent on Russian oil and gas especially during winter. This was by design it was supposed to create an interdependency that would moderate Russia's extremism and eventually lead to them becoming a proper Democratic state. It didn't work because dictators go really fucking crazy especially in their old age. Dictators are often extremely incompetent at everything except violence and holding power.

You guys have been saying this for at least a century now. That's what, over a third of this country's existence? Give it a rest already.

> Europe: Values it's people so tries to keep them happy.

That's the funniest thing I am likely to read all week.

But they are related.

Economic dominance allows you to fund the research that gives you technological dominance. Technological dominance allows you to produce next-generation munitions that give you military dominance. Military dominance means you can't be easily bullied to take away your economic dominance.