Europe Is Losing
- Reference: 0178828784
- News link: https://slashdot.org/story/25/08/22/1925255/europe-is-losing
- Source link:
Per capita GDP gaps have widened dramatically: $86,000 annually in the US versus $56,000 in Germany and $53,000 in the UK. Industrial electricity costs have become prohibitive, running three times higher in Germany and four times higher in the UK than American rates. "America innovates, China imitates, Europe regulates," Italian Prime Minister Giorgia Meloni observed. The continent's largest company by market value, SAP, now ranks just 28th globally.
Further reading : [2]The Technology Revolution is Leaving Europe Behind .
[1] https://www.msn.com/en-us/politics/government/europe-is-losing/ar-AA1L24RG
[2] https://tech.slashdot.org/story/25/05/23/0926234/the-technology-revolution-is-leaving-europe-behind
Re: (Score:2, Troll)
> Europe is run by the US. This process will continue until Europe wakes up and stops following whatever the U.S. tells them to do.
First post and you turned it into the USA's fault.
Yup, there's a reason Europe is falling behind. They have turned to victim mentality. How's that working out for ya'll?
Re: Divorce the USA (Score:2)
I always heard that was just Paris. Or is Paris just that plus urine?
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
News is that the divorce has already started.
The EU problem is more that the regulations are way too tight making innovation and development harder. Many cases of regulations and limitations are caused by misdirected environmental concerns where the intent is to preserve the current state but with the result that everything just starts to decay instead.
Re: (Score:2)
europe isn't run by the us, it is subservient to the us but is run by a bunch of european oligarchs represented by a highly mediocre and incompetent political class ... actually just like the us. there is no point in shifting blame and no, europe does not know how to regenerate, not even if they detached from the us ... which they aren't doing, actually quite the opposite, they're going to absurd extremes to stay under the us umbrella. not a good choice.
economically europe is bust and degrading fast ... jus
Re: (Score:1, Informative)
mRNA research was not banned in the US, and is still ongoing. Some specific research had its funding pulled due to lack of results so far. That might not be great, but it's not a ban.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Some specific research had its funding pulled due to lack of results so far.
That is the excuse given by the Trump administration, but I didn't think anyone was silly enough to actually believe them. Guess I was wrong.
[1]https://www.cbsnews.com/news/m... [cbsnews.com]
[1] https://www.cbsnews.com/news/mrna-vaccine-defunding-cancer-treatment-rfk-jr/
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
you listen to alarmist news sources. mRNA research isn't banned, just fed government pulling $500M funding which is peanuts. The big boys will keep doing it with their big pharmy billions, don't fret.
The Dept of Education didn't educate anyone, it's an agenda and fad organ. We did fine before it existed, it's younger than I am.
Global Warming won't end civilization, but the already poor real estate choices that have had issues for decades for many reasons will get weeded out. And those islands at sea l
Re: (Score:2)
"Global Warming won't end civilization..."
Because billionaires will first.
"...but the already poor real estate choices that have had issues for decades for many reasons will get weeded out."
Ans so will a lot of productive farm land. And countless species. And those millions of people that die? They were doomed anyway.
This is what a partisan apologist looks like.
WInning? Economic growth is killing the ecosystem. (Score:5, Insightful)
At this point a lot of economic growth is just generating garbage, but because we are so addicted to growth, we have to keep generating garbage.
A better question to ask would be, would you prefer to live in Europe or the U.S.? Not work, live. The idea that our lives should be work from graduation to grave doesn't really seem like something we ought to be valorizing—it sucks for the planet, and it sucks for us.
Re:WInning? Economic growth is killing the ecosyst (Score:5, Insightful)
Europeans have fewer big toys, but are healthier and happier.
Re: (Score:2)
Healthier? Good lord, you're just making up whatever sounds good aren't you?
Their life expectancy is on average about 5 years more than ours [1]https://www.healthsystemtracke... [healthsystemtracker.org] .
[1] https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/u-s-life-expectancy-compare-countries/#Life%20expectancy%20at%20birth,%20in%20years,%201980-2023
Re:WInning? Economic growth is killing the ecosyst (Score:4, Funny)
oops, sorry. I misread what you said.
*ducks out*
Re: (Score:1)
At least you got a nice link to back my statement, thanks! Teem Wurk!
Abused housewives are happier/healthier than PhDs (Score:2, Troll)
> Europeans have fewer big toys, but are healthier and happier.
Your logic is flawed. Abused housewives are happier and healthier than PhDs. They don't know any better and don't want for things they don't think are possible. I know many Europeans and work with them daily. It's a wash. Is the American lifestyle better?...I am not prepared to say that, but I also don't put theirs on a pedestal. They're just as miserable.
Yeah, the average Dutch person sees more smiles walking through the streets...then they go home to an ancient house without air conditioning and
Re: (Score:3)
I would agree that the Infinite Growth Forever economic model is a bit, shall we say, thermodynamically flawed.
However, I would contend that there's nothing about economic growth in itself that requires we produce as much garbage and pollution as we do, nor that we handle it as badly as we do. That's a separate, albeit related, pathology.
Re: (Score:1, Flamebait)
> At this point a lot of economic growth is just generating garbage, but because we are so addicted to growth, we have to keep generating garbage.
> A better question to ask would be, would you prefer to live in Europe or the U.S.? Not work, live. The idea that our lives should be work from graduation to grave doesn't really seem like something we ought to be valorizing—it sucks for the planet, and it sucks for us.
Would I. prefer to live in Europe rather than the USA? Looking at Europe's history, I'd take the USA any day.
Seems it was a place where many innocent people died, with genocide occurring even in the 1990's.
You can bloviate on how Europe is superior to the USA in all respects, a place where all are welcome and happy.
Out of curiosity is your history banned or something? I'm terribly ashamed of some of the things the US has done, you all seem to have suppressed the horrors you have delivered to the wo
Plutocrats? Average vs. Median (Score:2)
Median GDP may give a more useful metric because US's bloated rich skews averages. So far google is giving wildly diff results.
Re: (Score:2)
I think it's also a case of picking the endpoints to suit your narrative.
Because big things happened between 2005 and 2025, namely the iPhone and the economy behind it that lead to Android and it basically wiping out all the traditional cellphone companies like BlackBerry and Nokia and such and turning the US into a mobile powerhouse, a position formerly held by Europe and Japan.
And it's also excluding the effects of Trump on the economy - the numbers are looking bad enough that they US government has to ce
Didn't know it was a competition (Score:3)
I think the goal is to have a robust economy, not necessarily to compete to be one of the largest.
But yet my first choice (Score:5, Insightful)
"America innovates, China imitates, Europe regulates" is probably a fair summary, however Europe is the only one of those three I would consider living in. I don't care about the personal income difference etc, I have spent time in all three and it no contest if you are looking at the quality of lifestyle.
Re: (Score:2)
If you want to talk safety then China might be the best choice. At no time did I ever feel unsafe there, but it was a smothering safety. In Europe you would want to use common sense about where and when you went somewhere, like most countries. I lived in pre-war Ukraine and seldom felt at risk. In the USA there was often times I felt uncomfortable about being out and about, and that was before it became the openly hostile place it is perceived to be now.
If you want to extend safety to include healthc
Re: (Score:2)
Yes.
Should have dropped the racism sooner. (Score:5, Interesting)
When you start looking at the top economies in Europe, it's clear, their fundamentals are mostly fine, especially around innovation. They need to tune their ways, but it's quite salvageable. Biotech?...Novo Nordisk is doing quite well, as are many other pharma giants.
Europe doesn't do much in the device/computer space, beyond maybe ASML & Europe sucks in software, but really everyone but the USA does. And honestly, they're probably #2. Japan is SHIIIIT on software. Seriously, WTF guys?...you do so much so well, but there's not a single Japanese software product I know of on the market and every UI in every Japanese device ranging from cameras to cars is dogshit...looks like it hasn't changed since the 80s and is unnecessarily complex and unintuitive. China?...same. Australia has a company or 2, but that's all I know of...beyond SAP...which is typically poorly regarded. No one "chooses" SAP...it's chosen for them by someone who will never use it...typically after being heavily bribed. They're regarded by most as a better version of IBM...which is far from a compliment.
America is awesome in most things, but the main reason is we've been so immigrant friendly for so long (not counting current administration). We're not only happy to take your best minds...we'll give them a fucking loan, great bankruptcy protection, and a huge talent pool as well as the best access to seasoned investors and mentors. Well over half of our recent best companies were founded or cofounded by immigrants. We're inherently great...but....out overall greatness is massively amplified by imported talent.
Once Europe can figure out how to support their entrepreneurs and immigrants and help them start businesses, they will have no problem competing, if not overtaking the USA in the innovation corner. IMO, that's why Japan never overtook us and China and India never will. All 3 of those societies are inherently racist and isolationist. They can only compete with their own minds.
Europe has recently changed their ways to welcome more immigrants recently. Just 10 years ago, if you moved to Sweden, spoke perfect Swedish, but had a foreign accent, you were not really accepted or integrated into society, especially if you weren't white...yeah, no one firebombed your house...but your kids had a stigma and would face resistance marrying locals, for example. You were never a "real Swede"...same with most of Europe beyond maybe Great Britain.
The reason Trump is so shitty to immigrants is that many in the USA never liked how welcoming we are of immigrants...and it can be shitty being an immigrant in the USA...until you compare it to the China, India, Norway, Romania, Greece, France, the Middle East, etc. You can not only live here, especially in urban areas...you can intermarry, be welcomed in communities, etc. If you learn the language and do minimal efforts to fit in (like follow the regional sports teams), you're 100% American to about 75% of the total population...probably 90% in urban/suburban areas. Here, in MA, immigrants with THICK accents do well in the suburbs simply with a Pats shirt (New England Patriots, our local football team) and basic friendliness. They and their kids are welcomed by the locals and integrated as much as they'd like to be...especially immigrants that make the effort to assimilate, like most Chinese and Filipino families.
I know about 10 years ago, that WAS NOT the case in most of Europe, especially the shitty parts, like Bulgaria, but even the wealthier nations as well. I've been told that's changing. But yeah...treat immigrants like shit and you're stuck with local talent.
So fix your cultural issues and then start giving everyone support in starting businesses, and then you'll catch up with the USA. Yeah, you got some dumb regulations, but that's a minor part of the story. The USA has plenty of stupid regulations and our most regulated states have historically had the most success. Our most unregulated states, like Texas and Flo
[1]Read the rest of this comment...
[1] https://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=23776502&cid=65608816
Re:Should have dropped the racism sooner. (Score:4, Informative)
A lot of companies in the world are actually European, but few people are aware. You mention SAP, which is actually German. Important pharmaceutic
al companies are officially US, but most of the work is done in Europe (remember the Covid vaccines?). Belgium has a huge chemical industry, which is all owned by US companies. Etc etc.
I'd rather live and work in the countries that make stuff and innovate than in the ones that have the stock market bling bling. Us Europeans will just survive and thrive, do our own thing and prosper. The US can have all the homeless people it wants.
Europe "sucks in software"? (Score:4, Insightful)
Yeah, it's a good thing that Linux, Skype, Python and the World Wide Web were invented by good ol' Americans.
Oh. Wait...
Re: (Score:2)
They were not US citizens at the time they invented the things I mentioned.
Sure, a lot of people move to the US for money. It's that way for Canadians too, or it used to be. Nowadays, people are having second thoughts, with (for example) a [1]world-renowned cardiologist turning down a position in the USA [yahoo.com].
[1] https://ca.news.yahoo.com/ottawa-heart-doctor-turned-down-214100167.html
Re: (Score:1)
> Yeah, it's a good thing that Linux, Skype, Python and the World Wide Web were invented by good ol' Americans.
Worth mentioning that Torvalds, van Rossum, and Berners-Lee all moved to the US. The business and research opportunities may have had something to do with that.
But look, the claim isn't that no innovation comes out of Europe. It's just that there would be a lot more, and stronger economic growth in general, if regulation were more sane.
Re: (Score:2)
But the regulations preserve people's privacy and stop tech oligarchs from abusing consumers so much. I think that might be a reasonable tradeoff.
Re: Should have dropped the racism sooner. (Score:1)
Insightful comment. Speaking as a proud American of Indian (Asian) origin, of 25 years [ GeorgiaTech + ex MIT startups ]
I agree and would like to add that India is currently overcoming its hangover of British invasionist colonialism and failed Islamic conquests (similar to the Spanish inquisition).
But by and large, India is pretty tourist + investor/startup friendly, especially Bengaluru, the Silicon Valley of India. Goa, etc ... e.g.
[1]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=... [youtube.com]
Also, I am more alarmed at the open air
[1] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bSbXDVaVf6M
Re: Should have dropped the racism sooner. (Score:1)
By Colonialist invasions, I mean stuff like this brutal Goa inquisition where tge so called Christian saint but actually a brutal monsyer cut off Native Hindus hands off for not converting to Christianity. WTF.
[1]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wik... [wikipedia.org]
Just like the barbaric invadic Muslim Empetor who built the Taj fucking Mahal for his dead empress using Hindu laborers and then cyt their hands off and blinded them so they would nit build another monument like it again.
Double WTF. I would be wary of invading barbari
[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goa_Inquisition
Re: Should have dropped the racism sooner. (Score:1)
pardon the typos
Re: (Score:2)
> Japan is SHIIIIT on software. Seriously, WTF guys?
Breath of the Wild. Tears of the Kingdom.
I can think of two reasons (Score:2)
Competition from China
Way too many rules that make it nearly impossible to make anything
Depends how you measure it (Score:5, Insightful)
If you measure "winning" by per-capita GDP, then yes. Europe is way behind the USA.
If you measure "winning" by happiness, healthcare affordability, and leisure time, then Europe is way, way, way ahead of the USA.
Re: (Score:2)
I agree, it is basically just a retirement home for elderly nations. May as well be comfortable as you slip into oblivion.
Re: (Score:2)
Actually, if you compare the downtown of an average European city to the downtown of an average American city, the European city is a whole lot livelier and more fun. I'll take places like Amsterdam or Stockholm over car-dependent hellholes like Phoenix or Dallas any day.
I don't live in Europe or the USA, but if I had to pick one to live in, it certainly would not be the USA.
Holy non sequitur, Batman ! (Score:3)
What lunatic of an economics journalist thought this sentence made sense ?! :
"Europe's share of global economic output has fallen from 33% to 23% since 2005 while its space launch capacity has nearly collapsed,"
Re: (Score:2)
A lunatic like Jamie Dimon. This is basically a dupe, though written by someone else. It makes the same points, including the mistake of not accounting for the exit of Britain from the EU GDP total. I wonder how the authors of this article are acquainted with Jamie Dimon?
[1]Jamie Dimon's Blunt Message for Europe: 'You're Losing' [slashdot.org]
(The original story is from [2]CNBC [cnbc.com])
[1] https://slashdot.org/story/25/07/11/1432259/jamie-dimons-blunt-message-for-europe-youre-losing
[2] https://www.cnbc.com/2025/07/11/jamie-dimon-has-a-blunt-message-for-europe-youre-losing.html
Re: (Score:2)
Thanks for the background.
It seems Mr Dimon is indeed a demented Europe-hater who doesn't understand how to argue a point.
GDP is not equal to prosperity (Score:2)
GDP is usually a measure of how wealthy the wealthiest person in a country. It is NOT relevant to poverty. Many countries with high GDP also have high poverty. And many countries with low GDP have low poverty.
Mainly because salaries have not kept up with profits. So GDP no longer is correlated to poverty.
Per capita GDP is one of the dumbest metrics (Score:4, Insightful)
It measures economic activity. Not quality of life. Not quality of the environment. Just how much value is extracted per population on average. A baby will have the same per capita GDP as whoever is the richest person in that country.
It does not reflect anything on the quality of life, nor on the actual wealth of the population.
4:1 US to EU immigration (Score:2)
There are 1.1M Americans living in the EU, there are 4.7 Europeans living in the USA. Net migration trends seem to counter the Slashdot crowds assessment that the EU is a better place to live. US unemployment for youths is 7.4% vs 14.8%. Yeah, money can't buy everything but it sure helps.
It's a point of view thing (Score:2)
In the EU, most people don't pay health insurance, don't worry about being left homeless, pay exactly what the price of lunch is (no tipping) enjoy their lives without feeling like they need to constantly work, work, work. Oh and there's a distinct lack of guns everywhere.
OTOH, the US innovates better but the cost is the US debt which is like 95% of GDP compared to 86% of GDP for the EU.
The US debt was a lot lower than the EU until 2008 when US politicians found out they could fund almost anything by pushi
Uh oh (Score:3, Funny)
Could their economic woes be related to the apparent size of the continent? Maybe if we issued new maps with a projection that visually exaggerates Europe's size even more than it already does with the Mercator projection, and shrinks USA's and China's, then surely Europe's economic output should grow too. I heard this was supposed to work with Africa, so maybe it's worth a shot.