'Goodbye, $165,000 Tech Jobs. Student Coders Seek Work At Chipotle.' (nytimes.com)
- Reference: 0178643638
- News link: https://news.slashdot.org/story/25/08/11/1610211/goodbye-165000-tech-jobs-student-coders-seek-work-at-chipotle
- Source link: https://www.nytimes.com/2025/08/10/technology/coding-ai-jobs-students.html?unlocked_article_code=1.dU8._N3b.WpGjEJ9XpFok&smid=url-share
> The New York Times [2]reports from the CS grad job-seeking trenches : Growing up near Silicon Valley, Manasi Mishra remembers seeing tech executives on social media urging students to study computer programming. "The rhetoric was, if you just learned to code, work hard and get a computer science degree, you can get six figures for your starting salary," Ms. Mishra, now 21, recalls hearing as she grew up in San Ramon, Calif.
>
> Those golden industry promises helped spur Ms. Mishra to code her first website in elementary school, take advanced computing in high school and major in computer science in college. But after a year of hunting for tech jobs and internships, Ms. Mishra graduated from Purdue University in May without an offer. "I just graduated with a computer science degree, and the only company that has called me for an interview is Chipotle," Ms. Mishra said in a get-ready-with-me TikTok video this summer that has since racked up more than 147,000 views.
>
> Some graduates described feeling caught in an A.I. "doom loop." Many job seekers now use specialized A.I. tools like Simplify to tailor their resumes to specific jobs and autofill application forms, enabling them to quickly apply to many jobs. At the same time, companies inundated with applicants are using A.I. systems to automatically scan resumes and reject candidates.
[1] https://slashdot.org/~theodp
[2] https://www.nytimes.com/2025/08/10/technology/coding-ai-jobs-students.html?unlocked_article_code=1.dU8._N3b.WpGjEJ9XpFok&smid=url-share
Get ready with me (Score:2)
I felt sympathy until I read she did a get ready with me tik tok (I can only imagine what that is).
Re:Get ready with me (Score:4, Interesting)
"Ms. Mishra, the Purdue graduate, did not get the burrito-making gig at Chipotle."
I think this single sentence says more about it than anything else in the article.
Re:Get ready with me (Score:5, Insightful)
> "Ms. Mishra, the Purdue graduate, did not get the burrito-making gig at Chipotle."
> I think this single sentence says more about it than anything else in the article.
Of course she didn't. Hiring a person with a CS degree at Chipotle just means you're going to have to hire someone to replace them as soon as they find a job at a place they really want to work at. Much better to hire someone who is more likely to stick around for a while.
Re: (Score:2)
The average employee lasts well less than a year at a fast casual; this had little to do w/her background.
[1]https://www.fastcasual.com/blo... [fastcasual.com]
[1] https://www.fastcasual.com/blogs/fixing-the-leaky-bucket-how-fast-casuals-should-rethink-retention/
Re: (Score:2)
Yes, retention is a major issue in the fast food industry which is exactly why you wouldnt want to be hiring people that make this problem worse.
Re: (Score:2)
Comes with the year of birth...
The numbers don't match the stories (Score:5, Informative)
I see varying numbers between 6-8% for the unemployment rate of recent CS grads. But even if that number was as high as 10%, wouldn't that mean that the vast majority of CS grads are finding jobs in their field despite the headlines of an "abysmal" job market for CS grads?
Re: Slashdoters must be reading Citizen Free Press (Score:3)
I definitely agree. I think one of the issues is Silicon Valley is no longer a good place to be looking for work. Look for some other place where the software industry isn't necessarily strong, but there are always jobs for software people at other types of organizations.
Re: (Score:2)
How do most new graduates cover the cost of moving to another state in order to qualify for interviews in that state?
Re: (Score:2)
Costs are very low. Pack up your car. What doesn't fit, stays behind.
Don't have a car? Pack up your backpack. What doesn't fit, stays behind. Take the bus.
You also don't have to live in a state to "qualify" for interviews there.
When I drove off some 400 miles to take my first job, everything I owned was in or on my vehicle.
Re: (Score:2)
> Don't have a car? Pack up your backpack. What doesn't fit, stays behind. Take the bus.
You still need a first job to afford the bus ticket and hotel room.
> You also don't have to live in a state to "qualify" for interviews there.
GoTeam disagrees in [1]this comment [slashdot.org], with my emphasis:
> our HR is a disaster. They don't post jobs they way we ask them to, and the people they do give us resumes for are mostly unqualified or out of state
[1] https://news.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=23766610&cid=65582264
Re: (Score:2)
Well, when one is intent on having an excuse, finding one is inevitable.
It's not too late to "smell the coffee..." (Score:1)
> ..."I just graduated with a computer science degree, and the only company that has called me for an interview is Chipotle,"
If I were the graduate, I'd simply join an apprenticeship program, almost guaranteeing me a foot in the trades.
At a point in life, one has to realise that these aren't the nineties. The graduate would do well as an electrician, plumber or carpenter in my opinion.
Re: (Score:2)
That's a tough ask when you've already paid (in both time and money) for a CS degree. Great advice if you're fresh out of high school though.
Who you know before what you know (Score:3)
Twenty years ago my career started thanks to my college having required internships and the college working with local companies to have students work a full year over a two year period between classes. After that there was only one job I was hired into because of my resume and I was working on a Master's degree in CS (though that company was a headhunter group that paid me the same hourly wage as my previous salaried job with no benefits), everything else I got the job because I had worked with people at the company in previous jobs.
I don't honestly trust a lot that I could pick up a job now if I did not already know people at the company.
Re: (Score:2)
> I don't honestly trust a lot that I could pick up a job now if I did not already know people at the company.
Your comment made me think about my own situation for a minute. I've had a total of six jobs with the first three being early "non-tech" jobs. Of all the jobs, I knew someone at five of them before I was hired. The one I didn't know anyone at had the most job growth (responsibilities and pay). I doubt I would have had the relevant experience to get the tech job where I didn't know anyone without the jobs before it.
Having hired quite a few people in the past 10 years, I can see why hiring someone based on a
Constant re-training (Score:3)
Tech jobs generally require you to stay on top of the latest technology. You're constantly retraining yourself to use new tools, languages, techniques, buzzwords, and now AI assisted development and testing.
If you ever fall behind, it's really hard to get back into the game. If you have a few years of experience under your belt (so not a student) pivoting to leadership and management roles is possible for some. For most people, they drop out and find a different industry and take a massive haircut in the process.
Many of us are still taking a wait-and-see approach with AI. We are dabbling a bit in it but aren't committed to pivoting to it. Because we're not sure if it is an over hyped tech fad as part of a new bubble. Or if we're facing a major paradigm shift as big as broadband Internet or the microchip.
Re: (Score:2)
> We are dabbling a bit in it but aren't committed to pivoting to it.
I don't understand what this means. How do you "dabble" and what would it mean to "pivot"?
I use AI for stuff it does well, and don't use it for stuff it doesn't do well. Knowing which is which requires investing a little time, but not much.
> Because we're not sure if it is an over hyped tech fad as part of a new bubble.
Why should any of that matter? If using it makes you more productive, do it. If it doesn't, don't. This isn't like a new language where using it requires a significant commitment because you'll have to maintain it in the future. The code you write with AI should look
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> I don't understand what this means. How do you "dabble" and what would it mean to "pivot"?
By dabble. I mean that many software engineers are trying out AI tech in their development. Perhaps in a personal project, perhaps in an experiment. But generally not using AI in their "main" work.
To pivot meaning, to swap the role of AI from being an experimental tool to being a tool that is part of your primary development process.
> Why should any of that matter?
Results matter. If something is over hyped, then presumably it fails to live up to the promises. And in this case, I think it may not even live up to being a superior tool to wh
Re: (Score:2)
> By dabble. I mean that many software engineers are trying out AI tech in their development. Perhaps in a personal project, perhaps in an experiment. But generally not using AI in their "main" work.
Unless they're holding off because of IP concerns, that doesn't make any sense to me. If the tools work well enough to be worth using on personal projects, why not use it on paid work?
> Results matter. If something is over hyped, then presumably it fails to live up to the promises. And in this case, I think it may not even live up to being a superior tool to what we currently use. Wasting more time and money than it saves.
This is my point. Don't use it if it wastes time or produces bad results, use it when/where it saves time. One easy way to do this is to copy your source repository and tell the coding agent to go write test cases or implement a feature or whatever and keep working on it until the code builds and passes, and while it's worki
What's wrong with that? (Score:1)
Shit, my first job after graduation was with a company best known for making ice cream. It didn't pay worth a shit either. Hardly anybody responded to my applications. Blaming it on outside factors beyond your control, real or not, doesn't do you any favors. If you spend all of your life doing that, then it becomes your whole life, and next thing you know you're rsilvergun, and your whole life is just one big complaint form.
Re: (Score:2)
> Blaming it on outside factors beyond your control, real or not, doesn't do you any favors. If you spend all of your life doing that, then it becomes your whole life, ...
Yeah, no one wants to hire a professional victim. They're easy to spot in an interview. If they do get hired, they're like a disease that infects otherwise good employees.
employer job market now... (Score:2)
I remember reading all the quiet quiting, and prospective candidates ghosting employers. This is just the market swinging the other direction to a employer's market for hiring. All the below average job seekers will have difficulty finding good patients jobs in their field now that employers have a better pool of candidates to pick from.
Welcome to the job market (Score:2)
This is how job seeking has been for a very long time for most people. For a while, software developers in some metros were insulated from this. No more.
Starting salary? (Score:3)
I'm not sure that was ever the case for starting salary. I'm at a 6 figure salary now with a CS degree, but it took me nearly 20 years to hit 6 figures. Right out of college I started at around $30k per year (moved to $45k pretty quickly, but after that it's been quite incremental).
Re: (Score:3)
> I'm not sure that was ever the case for starting salary. I'm at a 6 figure salary now with a CS degree, but it took me nearly 20 years to hit 6 figures. Right out of college I started at around $30k per year (moved to $45k pretty quickly, but after that it's been quite incremental).
You don't give your graduation date, but it was more than 20 years ago from what you say. If it was 25 years ago then your starting wage needs to be roughly doubled to compare with current salaries. So you started at something like $60k and moved to up to something approaching $90k which is not far from 6 figures today.
Re: (Score:2)
> Right out of college I started at around $30k per year
It may not be when either, but where. I started 40 years ago in Texas around this range. I quickly skyrocked up to ~100K moving to the west coast 30 years ago and doubling that moving to Silicon Valley 10 years ago. I would not expect to be making what I make here if I moved back to Texas - but then my housing costs would be half of what they are here.
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> I'm not sure that was ever the case for starting salary. I'm at a 6 figure salary now with a CS degree, but it took me nearly 20 years to hit 6 figures. Right out of college I started at around $30k per year (moved to $45k pretty quickly, but after that it's been quite incremental).
Sometimes you also need to be willing to take a job below the level you expected. I had a job that paid great, but our company was bought out around the dot com bubble burst. Everyone at that office was let go. Very few companies were hiring in my city at the time. I had to take a tech job that also required doing phone support for customers. I absolutely hated that job, but I worked hard at it and didn't bitch about the worst parts of it. By the time I left, I was earning almost double what I had been earn
Saturating popular urban markets... (Score:2)
Saturating popular urban markets is a great way to be out-competed but job seekers follow the herd.
Consider if it's better to be a big fish in a small pond or chum in a shark tank.
Re: (Score:2)
Those popular urban markets were the ones hiring all the software engineers a few years ago. Now they're not.
Maybe move out of Silicon Valley? (Score:2, Offtopic)
When I graduated with my CS degree, I couldn't find work in my town of Pensacola, Florida either. So I looked for jobs where they were, and ended up moving to Houston, Texas, a place where I knew no one. Now, I call Houston "home."
Sometimes you have to move to where the jobs are. This is not terrible, this is simply life.
No mention of GPA? (Score:3)
One thing I've noticed as the father of a college student in computer engineering is companies won't even bother looking at you unless your GPA is 3.5+. My recommendation to freshman is to ignore that bullshit "GPA doesn't matter" and protect that with your life. If you ever feel like you're not going to get an A, drop the class right away and try again later. Better to take 5-6 years to graduate instead of taking 18 credit hours your freshman year and destroying your GPA. Get an internship as soon as you can too, while your GPA is still high.
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The only potential employer I ever had ask about my GPA was the CIA. Nobody else cared.
As a hiring manager, I never asked about GPA. Nor did I care.
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> One thing I've noticed as the father of a college student in computer engineering is companies won't even bother looking at you unless your GPA is 3.5+. My recommendation to freshman is to ignore that bullshit "GPA doesn't matter" and protect that with your life. If you ever feel like you're not going to get an A, drop the class right away and try again later. Better to take 5-6 years to graduate instead of taking 18 credit hours your freshman year and destroying your GPA.
I've been a professional software engineer for 35 years, and been involved in hiring for all but the first two, in several different companies from tiny startups to giant corps (IBM and now Google). Maybe computer engineering is different (I doubt it), but in all that time I've never seen or heard of a company that cared about GPA, because it's a really lousy predictor of ability. Sometimes recruiters use GPA as a screening tool when they have absolutely nothing else to go on, but that's the only use of GP
Re: (Score:2)
I had an EE undergrad 4.0, went straight to a EE PhD program, had plenty of journal papers, some patents, and a few research excellence awards. Still did not seem to help my job prospects much (back in ~2009-2010).
Probably did not help that my grad program was in RF / photonics, and I was looking for a chip design position, and that my alma mater was not in an ideal location (Iowa)
Finally got lucky and landed a year-long co-op that translated into a full-time position.
WHAT $165K (entry level) tech jobs? (Score:5, Insightful)
If anybody thought $165K was an attainable starting salary for a tech job, they've been hoodwinked. In the real world, starting programmers make more like $85K [1]https://www.salary.com/tools/s... [salary.com] And IMO that's not a bad starting salary, in a nation (US) where the median income is $40K.
Time to reset expectations.
[1] https://www.salary.com/tools/salary-calculator/junior-programmer
Re: (Score:2)
I'm sure there are some lucky folks, but I have a EE PhD, and even my starting base salary was ~$75K back in 2012. Doing much better now (total compensation is comparable to Microsoft's Level 65/66)
The Air and Space Forces beat Chipotle (Score:4, Interesting)
Why work at Chipotle when your degree can enable commissioning as an officer? You can then fully retire at 20 (or hang out for the pay bumps) and never have to work again unless you want to, and your military techie human network opens many doors.
If you want an instant career with outstanding retirement benefits you can collect before you die of old age that's hard to beat. The point of working is to one day be free from mandatory employment and the earlier the better. Vested retirements are few and far between, especially those which offer disability compensation.
BTW it doesn't matter much who is POTUS who are temporary distant annoyances. Only your personal work environment matters. I enlisted during the '81 recession and haven't felt one since. I chose the Air Force because US politicians are inherently strategically incompetent so the further one works from the tip of the spear the less likely they get the shaft. You need not buy into any mission personally so long as you do your job.
Re: (Score:1)
Sorry Charlie, humans work to create value & beauty ; that's the "point of working" . Has been since Gobekli-Tepe and almost certainly long before; think early cave paintings and "venus" figurines. Folks who work so they don't have to work have an unsolvable personality problem, and will create a short-lived, unproductive, degenerate, libertine culture.
Re: (Score:2)
The 20 year retirement thing has largely vanished in favor of the [1]Blended Retirement System [defense.gov]. It's not for everyone, but anyone who wants in actual cyber operations should at least take a look.
[1] https://militarypay.defense.gov/blendedretirement/
Starting Salary: Who cares about California (Score:1)
In HS I had written several APPs used by the staff and students, learned fairly advanced networking, wrote the school's website, and knew what ever single file did in the System directory. When I graduated at 18, I tried to transition from washing golf carts in the summer to an actual foot-in-the-door tech sector job where I could make connections at. But this was after the .com crash. I remember one of my interviewers was at an ISP, I was asking for $12/hr and afterwards the interviewer told me: Wha
There might be multiple things going on here (Score:2)
I have no doubt that "AI" - or tech company CEOs' understanding of it, at least - is messing with the tech job market right now. But, after reading that article, I'm also wondering about these particular students who were interviewed. If you read to the end of the article, for instance, you find out this "Chipotle" girl also has a sideline as a beauty influencer; the second student was (seemingly) more interested in tech policy, and the third student liked to write video games.
So how serious were these part
Re: (Score:2)
Doesn't really matter to the story -- a couple years ago, the C students were getting great starting salaries and unemployment among CS grads was among the lowest of any degree. It didn't matter if you were rockstar or not -- as long as you had the basics, you were employable. The story's point is how dramatically the market has shrunk such that employers are far more choosy. And this shift is affecting rockstars as well as the competition gets more intense.
Great waste of electricity (Score:2)
> Some graduates described feeling caught in an A.I. "doom loop." Many job seekers now use specialized A.I. tools like Simplify to tailor their resumes to specific jobs and autofill application forms, enabling them to quickly apply to many jobs. At the same time, companies inundated with applicants are using A.I. systems to automatically scan resumes and reject candidates.
So let me get this straight. So you use AI to customize your resume, then the company uses AI to reject AI customized resumes? What a waste of electricity is this. Just like the plot of Indiana Jones is not affected at all by the participation of Indiana Jones in the movie
They aren't gone (Score:2)
they are just gone temporarily. Once the industry wakes up and figures out that quality is gone, they'll be a mad dash to find CS people again.
Way out of the Doom Loop for employers (Score:1)
For most positions, only accept paper resumes. Dropped off in person or with a local postmark. It's easy enough to scan them into your computer system and let your AI do the initial screening.
For college hires, use the college's graduate-placement office.
For "key positions" where you want a regional or national applicant pool, use a head-hunting firm and let them worry about filtering out crap applicants.
Sorry, I don't have a way out of the Doom Loop for people looking for work, other than maybe good old
Re: (Score:2)
> other than maybe good old fashioned in-person networking.
It's the only exit that I found. And it doesn't work for most new grads... not enough of a network.
Welcome to 2005 (Score:2)
I entered the tech job market then. Previously tons of people had been hiring, often purely off of "certificates" rather than a graduate degree. The job market tightened and it was hard to find a job, especially if you didn't have experience or start with an internship.
The solution was simple: hustle. I went to User Group meetings, forums, chat rooms. Met people, networked, posted for jobs. Eventually one startup hired me. Soon after that, one of the people I met through networking offered me a better job.
then start a company (Score:2)
You need to do something to differentiate yourself from the herd. All the AI tools provide the legwork and non-value producing things allowing you to launch and run a tech business with initially no staff. If you have your own business, it proves you have the technical chops and the initiative to succeed. Then you can command the 6+ figure salary at another company. Or, ramp up your company - after running one, you may not want to work for someone else.
an no, being a "content creator" is not a job,
I call BS (Score:2)
Even a cursory search reveals tons of jobs in computer science (https://www.monster.com/jobs/search?q=computer+science&where=Chicago%2C+IL&page=1&so=m.h.sh). It's true that many companies are slowing hiring given the pending recession, and as with many careers "experience" is required, limiting options for new grads, but computer science is still an extremely valuable skill set and I would not hesitate to recommend pursuing a degree in college.
Re: (Score:3)
The link suggests you're looking in Chicago while she lives in California near Silicon Valley.
She also doesn't say there aren't any jobs - she's saying the only company that ever got back to her was Chipotle, meaning she got discarded/ghosted by all the rest.
Re:I call BS (Score:4, Interesting)
This is because this person needs to Get Good.
It's a nightmare hiring talent right now.
CS degrees have become fucking cookie cutter.
They certainly aren't what they were in the early 2000s when I earned mine.
There's a huge skills mismatch between what is needed, and what graduates have right now.
We're forced to hire people who graduated a minimum of 1.5 decades ago.
Re:I call BS (Score:4, Insightful)
> We're forced to hire people who graduated a minimum of 1.5 decades ago
So you admit to ageism in Tech? Well fuck you. I have skills, a track record, and a work ethic, but you don't want to pay for that.
Re:I call BS (Score:4, Insightful)
>> We're forced to hire people who graduated a minimum of 1.5 decades ago
> So you admit to ageism in Tech? Well fuck you. I have skills, a track record, and a work ethic, but you don't want to pay for that.
It looks like they aren't are hiring for positions that aren't entry level. That isn't "ageism". They require knowledge and specific skills that aren't taught in college classes.
End H1-B Hiring for Tech Jobs (Score:3)
There's too many workers in the market. We no longer need foreign workers for those jobs. Stop the H1-B program for tech jobs.
Re: (Score:2)
> There's too many workers in the market. We no longer need foreign workers for those jobs. Stop the H1-B program for tech jobs.
I'm with you 100% on that. Trump's policy on h1-b is not beneficial to citizens, but it for businesses. I don't hate the people either. H1-b workers make up the highest percentage of residents in my neighborhood. My kids go to school with their and we've had their kids and parents over many times. Very nice people (less 2 that drink a bit too much, lol).
The irritating part is that the average salary for H1-b folks in my area is $115,000 to $164,000. I'm pretty sure some recent college graduates (or young p
Re: (Score:2)
Reverse ageism? I don't think the poster means hiring older folks is a problem. Hiring new grads is the problem.
But the ability of the more experienced folks to command high salaries is shrinking too. Commoditization of the whole industry has been under way for a long time, and now the labour surplus is putting pressure on what's left. This was inevitable. People in these roles should be planning their exit strategy rather than building trenches.
Re: (Score:2)
> But the ability of the more experienced folks to command high salaries is shrinking too.
How do you figure?
I have witnessed nothing to that effect in the Seattle area.
Re: (Score:2)
No, you probably suck.
Re: (Score:2)
What skills are in demand now?
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Ten years of experience in ChatGPT
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For us, the primary skill we look for is an ability to engage in systems analysis. It's a good indicator of competent problem solving for tough problems.
The primary knowledge base we look for is a mid-level understanding of computer architectures, software and hardware.
Most of our hires are frankly idiots. They're codegens barely able to explain what it is they've read, and somehow made it through a CS program with an understanding of Java, but no idea what a memory mapped register is.
Or the ability to p
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Is she only looking at large companies? If so she needs to broaden her perspectives. You're not going to get a job at Google, Meta, Amazon, Apple, or any other Fortune 500 company unless you're near the top of your class coming directly out of college. I know for a fact my company has a limited pipeline for college grad engineers and they have to be darn good to get their foot in the door. In fact you won't get your foot in as a college grad here unless you also interned here. Anyone else has to go wor
Re: (Score:2)
If she got a reply back from Chipotle it stands to reason she applied to Chipotle. If she applied to Chipotle it seems likely she's applied to damned near everything.
Re: (Score:2)
> If she got a reply back from Chipotle it stands to reason she applied to Chipotle. If she applied to Chipotle it seems likely she's applied to damned near everything.
Not necessarily. Companies can get lists of graduating seniors and reach out to those they are interested in at least interviewing. I heard form several companies while in graduate school that I had not sent a resume or otherwise applied.
She should just walk in (Score:2)
Look the CEO right in his eye and give him a hearty handshake!
Do you even listen to yourself? Because your post is the most Boomer shit I've seen all week and I doom scroll a lot.
Yes they are applying everywhere and anywhere they can get jobs and they are applying well outside their area of expertise as long as the job is paying enough to keep a roof over their heads.
You can see this all over the Reddit job forums. People are applying all over the place. A year ago I could tell somebody to just
Re: (Score:1)
It's not "boomer shit" it's reality. When companies hunker down, which is what has been happening for the past few years, hiring becomes limited. And, the honest truth is that large companies are already hyper selective of who gets in the door direct from college. I don't agree with it, but it is the reality. Many of the best engineers I've worked with were not the ones with the top grades who got their foot in the door right out of college. In fact in my experience many of those top grade kids are som
Re: (Score:2)
A question:
How is the situation for entry level coding positions and companies outsourcing these positions to other countries with lower labor costs?
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
I am absolutely certain many of those kids are great at writing code; what I have found in the last ~3y of hiring candidates out of undergrad and/or masters programs is that they DO NOT interview well.
They can answer esoteric technical questions about software dev (I *assume* this is because they study for coding interview questions) but they cannot possibly answer more general questions about themselves, how they would operate in a real-world business setting, and/or how they might build something from sou
Re: (Score:3)
> Colleges need to start investing HEAVILY in leveling up their students in how to interview well.
Alternatively, unless they have stopped doing it recently, Google has a mock interview program, where you can sign up and go through training that will help you get through Google-style interviews (which are not uncommon). Various other companies have similar programs, either free or for $$$.
Re: (Score:2)
Various other companies have similar programs, either free or for $$$.
And, of course, the kids that need that training the most probably don't realize that they need it, and even if they do, they're the least likely to afford the ones that charge.
Re: I call BS (Score:4, Interesting)
"CS degrees have become fucking cookie cutter"
CS degrees were never all that valuable for software developers. I've done enough hiring to have a strong preference for a high school graduate with a decent GitHub page over a CS graduate with their name on a research paper.
In fact, I'd also hire a physics major over a CS major if they demonstrated basic coding skills.
The problem is CS makes people good at getting through interviews and oftentimes nothing else. It means the signal gets drowned out by the noise.
Is it fair to CS graduates? No one cares.
Re: (Score:1)
> CS degrees were never all that valuable for software developers.
I don't know what a "software developer" is.
We hire SEs, a CS degree is a requirement, and we hire for top 5% wages in the US.
I don't really care what you hire- I have a strong suspicion you, and the job opening you represent, don't matter.
Re: I call BS (Score:2)
A software developer is someone who can do software engineering, design, architecture, and programming. I have spent much of my career in startups, several of which were bought by large companies who hired software engineers who couldn't program.
Re: (Score:1)
> A software developer is someone who can do software engineering, design, architecture, and programming.
No.
> I have spent much of my career in startups, several of which were bought by large companies who hired software engineers who couldn't program.
Startups aren't hiring high school kids with Github accounts as software engineers, nor are they hiring SEs who can't program.
You're full of shit is what you are.
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You don't know what a "software developer" is? LOL, WTF? You wake up on the wrong side of the bed today, you sound like you need a nap.
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Have you ever met someone with the job title, "software developer"?
I'm pointing out the bullshit vagueries in use by parent.
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Yes, in fact I've had that title. It depends on the company. Usually there's "engineer" in the title somewhere, but that don't mean shit. I've had "Senior Principal Software Engineer" for a title where I did less and got paid less than my current lowly "software engineer" title. Like I said, it depends on the company.
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> Yes, in fact I've had that title.
That's not what I asked you.
I asked you if you knew anyone with the title.
Right now, this very minute, looking at job postings that are sent to me, exactly 1 job title is that.
Its use as a category is normal. As a job title- very abnormal.
> Usually there's "engineer" in the title somewhere
Indeed, there is.
> but that don't mean shit.
Yes, it does.
> I've had "Senior Principal Software Engineer" for a title where I did less and got paid less than my current lowly "software engineer" title.
Being pay scales are relative to the resources of the company offering them, I'm not sure what your point about pay was.
All of this brings us back to the following claim:
> CS degrees were never all that valuable for software developers.
Which is stupid.
Really, really stupid.
There is no more valuable, b
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> CS degrees were never all that valuable for software developers. I've done enough hiring to have a strong preference for a high school graduate with a decent GitHub page over a CS graduate with their name on a research paper.
> In fact, I'd also hire a physics major over a CS major if they demonstrated basic coding skills.
You like hiring folks at the peak of confidence on the Dunning-Krugar chart. They've learned just enough to become extremely confident in their own skills. In reality, they've only covered a fraction of what a graduate from a CS program has covered over 4 years.
I've worked with multiple people with this background. They can be very good when working in areas they know and have experience. Problem is that their knowledge is limited. They're often painfully ignorant in certain areas where it's obvious the
What is it with Americans (Score:2)
And always blaming the individual?
What you're really saying is that you want somebody with 15 years of experience that works for new employee wages.
And I can tell you right now having just put a kid through college you're getting somebody with two years of experience.
Because the last 2 years of your undergraduate degree is spent in a combination of all the school stuff us old farts had to do to get degrees combined with the added workload of 2 years of on the job training. That you pay for out o
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As an employee for about 30 years, I've never experienced this social contract.
I've always been an at-will employee.
Pensions were gone when I started work.
I did spend 4 years at my first job, and they trained me, then were shocked when I left for more money. So I never believed there was a social contract.
After a couple of years in my 2nd job, I was laid off. Again, no hint of a social contract almost 25 years ago.
I work for money, to support myself and my children. I always found it manipulative/hypocri
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> And always blaming the individual?
I don't hire schools. I don't hire educations. I hire people. So yes.
> What you're really saying is that you want somebody with 15 years of experience that works for new employee wages.
We pay very well, so no, that's not what I'm saying at all.
> And I can tell you right now having just put a kid through college you're getting somebody with two years of experience.
That's simply not how that works.
> Because the last 2 years of your undergraduate degree is spent in a combination of all the school stuff us old farts had to do to get degrees combined with the added workload of 2 years of on the job training. That you pay for out of your own pocket no less.
We get jackasses who can cobble shit together in Python or Java (seriously, wtf?) have no real understanding of larger systems, and the most problematic part- consistently are unable to learn or expand.
> The social contract between employee and employer is fundamentally breaking down. And our entire economic system is based on that social contract. Interesting times are ahead.
The social contract works fine. You want us to hire people we can't use. That's... frankly, strange.
We do occasionally get a grad who actually has
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I am old enough to remember just about identical comments (shifting the years a bit) when you graduated.
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I have no doubt. And they were probably true then, as well.
My mentor graduated when I was in diapers. I was jealous of the education he received, even.
Re: I call BS (Score:4, Interesting)
HR dept BS is the real problem. HR people are completely gaming the hiring websites. Posting fake jobs listings, and ghosting people is so common now it's considered "normal". It is just plain unprofessional, unethical behavior. I have absolutely zero sympathy when HR itself inevitably gets booted to the curb. For the aspiring grad my advice would be to do a MS with thesis with a good professor. This will get you "in" with the professors network of contacts and likely bypass the HR BS entirely.
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When I graduated with a degree in EE in 2014, I saw a job posting for Western Digital. It was an entry-level intern postion requring a PHD in related field, or Masters + 8 years experience.
For an intern position.
Re:I call BS (Score:4, Insightful)
> The link suggests you're looking in Chicago while she lives in California near Silicon Valley
I've often moved to find a new job. That's how it is in many career fields. If you want to stay in a specific location, yes, you are stuck with the jobs that are there (unless you are lucky and can land a remote job). If you want the job, then you often have to move.
Yes, the job market is tough for new graduates and the pending recession will be tough for everyone. BUT, those with a computer science degree will still have it better than those with, say, an English degree, and those with an English degree will still have it better than those with no degree. Hence my willingness to continue to recommend pursuing computer science as a degree and professional career path.
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Yup. I moved 400 miles away to a city where I knew nobody for my first job out of school.
Later I moved some 5000 miles under the same circumstances.
If you're not willing to move to take a job, you have nobody but yourself to blame for being unemployed.
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You nailed it, the text below the click bait headline says "the only company that has called me for an interview is Chipotle".
Does anyone believe Chipotle is random calling for restaurant positions?
I like to think this person at least tried to send resumes out for some IT position and sometime later Chipotle responded.
This person might need to learn to better target employers but hey, if your resume doesn't cut it...
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Job listings don't mean a damned thing. Companies that want to hire employees using H1B visas are required to advertise jobs that they have no intention of filling with a U.S. citizen. And even if they do want to hire U.S. citizens, that doesn't mean they want to hire entry-level positions.
Are there really? (Score:1, Troll)
Between ghost posts and H-1B bait how many of those are real jobs where people will actually hire you?
Startups will post jobs that don't exist to make it look like they are growing to investors.
And you can find videos on YouTube from law firms explaining in detail how to do job postings for positions you have no intention of hiring in order to satisfy the legal requirements around bringing in an H1B.
The current administration is giving some lip service to how terrible H-1B abuse is but I have no
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> I can tell you this much currently an art history major has lower unemployment than a computer science major.
The way the economy is now, an art history major has lower unemployment than a medical doctor. I know. I just moved 300 miles for a permanent job; before that, I was doing 1099 contract work for over 10 years, filling temporary holes and flying all over the country. And someone who is 1099 doesn't show up in the unemployment statistics.
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Yeah there are tons of nasty little tricks used to make the unemployment statistics look better than they actually are.
It's like how we all know professional competitive athletes dope but we all just kind of pretend they don't.
It's one of those weird things you start to see is you become an adult where everyone just pretends it's something happening isn't really happening. It's creepy and weird
Re:I call BS (Score:4, Interesting)
There are a lot of jobs posted out there in the computing sciences but there are also hundreds or even thousands of applicants to those jobs. I've got the seniority and the leadership pedigree but even for me, a job search right now amounts to throwing hundreds of resumes against the wall looking for a match. The reality is that, because of the enormous applicant volume -- qualified or not -- the odds of even a company getting back to you, even one that's a really great fit, are low and down to luck more often than not.
The biggest driver is speed of application. If you get your resume in within the first day or so of the position being opened there's at least a reasonable chance that someone will read it and get back to you.
That forces applicants to lean into a bulk application approach. You can't invest a bunch of time in any given application because you're unlikely to see a return on that investment and every moment you spend honing your resume is a moment other people are getting in the resume queue in front of you. And realistically, the hiring manager is going to get sick of reading resumes eventually; you just hope it's after he reads yours.
So yea, the market is terrible right now and the same things that are making it terrible are the things that people are using to cope with it being terrible. Because the moment it doesn't cost me anything to apply to a position with an AI crafted resume that makes sure to tick all of the boxes this company is likely looking for... well... why wouldn't I apply? Sure, there's only a 0.1% chance my application converts to an interview but I can take that gamble if it's two mouse-clicks to put my name in the hat.
This is WILDLY different from the experience of job hunting in CS back in the late 20-teens and early 20s. The combination of hiring pull-back, AI uncertainty, and applicant profusion has completely changed the game.