Kill Russian Soldiers, Win Points: Is Ukraine's New Drone Scheme Gamifying War? (bbc.com)
- Reference: 0178424874
- News link: https://tech.slashdot.org/story/25/07/20/1714257/kill-russian-soldiers-win-points-is-ukraines-new-drone-scheme-gamifying-war
- Source link: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c80p9k1r1dlo
"And now put to use too, as the Ukrainian military tries to extract every advantage it can against its much more powerful opponent."
> Under a scheme first trialled last year and dubbed "Army of Drones: Bonus" (also known as "e-points"), units can earn points for each Russian soldier killed or piece of equipment destroyed. And like a killstreak in Call of Duty, or a 1970s TV game show, points mean prizes [described later as "extra equipment."]
>
> "The more strategically important and large-scale the target, the more points a unit receives," reads a statement from the team at Brave 1, which brings together experts from government and the military. "For example, destroying an enemy multiple rocket launch system earns up to 50 points; 40 points are awarded for a destroyed tank and 20 for a damaged one."
>
> Call it the gamification of war.
The article concludes that the e-points scheme "is typical of the way Ukraine has fought this war: creative, out-of-the-box thinking designed to make the most of the country's innovative skills and minimise the effect of its numerical disadvantage."
And "It turns out that encouraging a Russian soldier to surrender is worth more points than killing one," the article notes — up to 10x more, since "a prisoner of war can always be used in future deals over prisoner exchanges."
Thanks to long-time Slashdot reader [3]schwit1 for sharing the article.
[1] https://abcnews.go.com/International/ukrainian-drones-attack-moscow-zelenskyy-suggests-fresh-ceasefire/story?id=123901237
[2] https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c80p9k1r1dlo
[3] https://www.slashdot.org/~schwit1
War is hell (Score:3, Insightful)
Does it matter whether they're doing it for medals, points or just their paycheck? Should soldiers never want to kill the enemy? This is war. People die. You TRY to kill people, that's how you accomplish your goals. Yes, it's horrific. What do you expect, bouquet-making contests?
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This is propaganda designed to make Ukraine look bad. Oh they’re making a game over poor Russian soldiers invading a sovereign country.
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I do not think that it makes them look bad, I think it makes them look like Freedom Fighters, like Creative Founding Fathers. Like how the USA was founded. We did not stand in a line and fire/kill people, we killed King Goerges's men from the trees, like Indians did.
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[1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ArpfuJjFKCs
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> Does it matter whether they're doing it for medals, points or just their paycheck?
it's not unusual for soldiers to get bonuses for confirmed high value targets, "gamification" is just a convoluted way to do this. ofc to cash in you have to be alive for the next payout cycle.
otoh, war is just another way of doing politics, which is just another way of doing business.
Re: War is hell (Score:3)
"No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country." -- attributed to George S. Patton
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My concern is that this gamification may not consider target priority. Anyone who has played a team-based objective shooter knows the frustration of teammates completely ignoring the objective to focus on stat-farming. In this case, you could have awesome stats getting kills far behind the front lines while your own soldiers are getting shredded. I hope they've considered this and have ways of keeping their drone operators focused on the objectives.
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According to the summary you get 10X as many points for getting a soldier to surrender as for killing him. But it's not genocide to kill someone who's physically attacking you. Not even if you had the alternative of capturing him (which isn't usual).
Am I supposed to be outraged? (Score:1)
It’s a fucking war. The object is to kill. That’s more offensive to me than offering meaningless points. Oh and congrats on getting this Ukraine=bad propaganda piece posted.
More distractions from Epstein.
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I find the Epstein thing humorous. The MAGA conspiracy machine is eating itself. Somehow, Trump is blaming Biden, and Democrats!! lol. As far as the war goes, I find that motivated, free people tend to win. My $$ is on the Ukrainians.
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Don't forget: the list is a Democrat hoax made by Biden that actually doesn't exist, but it's also on Pam Bondi's desk.
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Pam Bondi? The blonde bimbo who probably sucked Trumps dick in order to be the FBI Director? That Pam Bondi? *i should be banned for posting this* She has no qualifications. She is an idiot.
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Motivated people with lots of external support tend to win. Remember Vietnam. (I suppose one could reasonably argue that the North Vietnamese were freer than the South Vietnamese, but that's not the opinion the US press ever had.)
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I try to communicate with MAGAs, and they always just call me a name, and think that they "owned" me. I can not understand that at all. As far as Vietnam goes, I think they are doing well now. I have an embarrassing lack of knowledge of their history, but I think their women look beautiful.
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> Oh and congrats on getting this Ukraine=bad propaganda piece posted.
wait a sec. are you really saying that the bbc (no less) is spreading anti ukraine propaganda now? [1]https://www.bbc.com/news/artic... [bbc.com]
please hit me on the head with a dead fish, i must be hallucinating. they had been barely starting to very subtly question zelensky and hinting at the remote possibility that maybe, just maybe, they lost this (part of the) war ...
btw, i'm somehow very happy that you have no fucking clue about what fucking wars are all about. on the other hand, that's also quite sad.
[1] https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c80p9k1r1dlo
The solution seems pretty simple (Score:2)
If you dislike being bombed by drones then maybe invading neighboring countries isn’t for you.
But what do I know?
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how to completely miss the point of a story? :-)
Flawed moral axiom (Score:1)
Why is the idea that "gamifying war" is bad? What consitutes a game? If the answer is simply competition and strategy, then war is already a game and always has been. If a game has a requirement of something you do for pleasure, enjoyment, or recreation - well nobody is playing this game because it's fun. Now I'm sure some aspects are more fun than others, but you would be hard pressed to find a soldier on the front lines that doesn't want the war to stop because they are simply having too much fun. No,
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In the back of my mind, I would never go to war for America, I wonder what poor sucker would?. In that, me and Trump agree. I am proud of America, and I respect people who do die for this Country. I guess I am more of an idea man, than a shoot a bullet at another guy kind of man. In the now, in the future, it will be a game of mowing down human beings, now we ask why? what is the purpose?
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> Why is the idea that "gamifying war" is bad?
it isn't, really. it isn't even fundamentally new, it's just a new twist on an already common practice. but it's not good "étiquette" as it somehow seems to trivialize killing, so it triggers suerficial and emotional brains. in other words, it's good clickbait.
The Ukraine is advancing miltech to the next level (Score:3)
Anybody in the west not terminally stupid needs to make sure that (a) they win and (b) they are then willing to share that tech.
Yes, I know the US leadership does not have anybody on the "not terminally stupid" class at this time. But European leaders need to begin to take this really seriously.
Sure, get the kids to pilot the drones (Score:2)
What was that movie from... early 90's?... they recruit children to fight aliens because they are good at video games ... humanity's last hope.. yeah, I guess we're there now. Kids have better reflexes, so...
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Enders Game, the book is from 1985 which was turned into a movie in 2013.
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Ah yes... The Last Starfighter.
Worries about this already existed (Score:2)
I've seen stories worrying about "gamifying war" since the US military started moving heavily into drone warfare - so for a couple decades at least.
What the Ukranians have done is, of necessity, figured out how to take advantage of technical advancements and do it cheaply, effectively, and en masse - unlike the US, where the military has had carte blanche for-bloody-ever and don't even bother to think about doing anything cheaply (a million dollars to kill one guy? No problem!).
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So, you agree, that the Defense Department budget should be cut? I do. Trump has no idea on how to do this, but as a regular Slashdot reader(me), I think that a large amount of AI enabled drones could beat the US Military, and it does not take a Trillion dollars to do that. Trump has no ideas. He is a mumbling idiot.
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> So, you agree, that the Defense Department budget should be cut? I do.
I do, too. They should start by cutting the defense budget every year by the amount by which they could not pass the prior year's audit.
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From what I have heard, the Defense Department of the United States has never passed an audit.
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> From what I have heard, the Defense Department of the United States has never passed an audit.
Exactly. Every year they fail to explain big amounts of money with lots of digits before the decimal place. We should cut their budget specifically by those amounts until they learn to pass an audit. Then we can look at how much money they need to continue operation.
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A long time ago, Eisenhower warned against a Military/Industry Complex. The MAGAs and Trump bought into this. I disagree. [1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]. They (the MAGAs) talk about a "deep state", and they think it is about the US giving vaccines and food to young kids, but they are feeding the Military Industry Complex, to the enth degree.
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VWb384lfsE
Game Theory "is" war. (Score:2)
Nothing new in the clickbait article.
Several years ago (yes, I am that old) during the Cold War the US Navy realized their Submarine 'random course' techniques were predicable.
(Really, didn't they realize this back in WW2?)
The solution ended up being literally to base the course change on a roll of dice.
My favorite book about those times is "Blind Mans Bluff" [1]https://submarinebooks.com/bli... [submarinebooks.com]
[1] https://submarinebooks.com/blind-mans-bluff/
Rewarding good performance (Score:2)
Recognizing good performance and steering assets to those who perform better is good business.
I remember what I was relieved... (Score:4, Insightful)
I was relieved when, back around 1997, Ukraine gave up their Nuclear weapons. They agreed to be a peaceful, and decent nation. America agreed to defend them in the case of a Russian invasion. Russia crossed the Ukrainian lines, Ukraine did not invade Russia. Mushy brains seem to mix up this fact.
Re:I remember what I was relieved... (Score:4, Interesting)
I think Russians are stupid. They "vote" for, and lick the ass of a Dictator that sends them out to be cannon fodder. Russia is a Huge, under-populated land mass, with vast natural resources, and if you had the right leader, then you could be the Richest of the Rich in the world, without having to be constantly at war. That is what a Dictator gives you, being constantly at war.
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But he says things I agree with!
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I guess that MAGA and Putin hate gays, and trans. They are just the Jews in the NAZI era in my humble opinion. A small, minority group to hate. They say the word: "Woke", and all MAGA's salivate, and they hate.
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First thing Nazis did in 1933 was prohibit (gay) sex research, remove written publications, target transvestites [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_homosexuals_in_Nazi_Germany#Nazi_takeover_and_initial_crackdown_(1933)
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Their GDP dropped. They hurt themselves. Bad. Now their country bans any NAZI talk. They got their asses kicked real good. The best form of government, I think, is an inclusive government, including gays, bi, trans, black, white, and yes even MAGAs. Inclusive should be the rule. MAGAs are in power now, and they hate the "others". I do not think that will stand in the span of history, but it lives in the moment.
Re: I remember what I was relieved... (Score:2)
So... Communism.
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I debate the word "communism" in my mind all of the time. To me it represents the values of give what you can, and take what you need. To me it is what the Star Trek Universe is made of. I would like the Human race to get to the Star Trek Universe. All that we would have to care about is the choice to become an Engineer, a Captain, or a Botanist. But... that is communism.
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It is always easy to find tons of pathetic losers that are willing to (fake) elevate themselves by looking down on some other group. Too many people are crap like that.
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They're not stupid, they've grown up in an environment where obeying authority is an excellent survival tactic. And what they vote for is irrelevant since regional administrators understand the consequences if they don't report a healthy majority for Putin. "Russia" is in fact essentially the last remaining European colonial empire, the rule over a vast area by Moscow (and St. Petersburg to a degree), most of the empire is plundered and has no say in the matter, and the core enjoys the fruits of that plunde
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It seems to me that the middle class has a right to an opinion, before Musk took over Twitter, and stupid MAGAs voted Trump into office. That is a difference between America and Russia.
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Yes, Americans would never vote for a dictator. And even if they do, there is Congress that reigns in the worst ideas. Oh wait...
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There's more to be relieved about. The US accepted weapons grade fissionables and exchanged it at 1 to 7 for reactor grade. At the time, the mushy brains yelled and screamed that the US was "Giving away Uranium!". To be fair, the reporting that got them screaming did not mention the fact it involved trading in weapons grade (stuff that goes boom) for reactor grade (stuff that hums). Of course the wingnut media didn't report that - it wouldn't make their base scream in horror.
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It was a small moment in history, that few people seem to remember, but Ukraine was a Nuclear Bomb Powerhouse. They agreed to give it up, they did. Otherwise, Moscow may be a crater today. I prefer peace. Ukraine also prefers peace. I think all Americans should back Ukraine. I do not understand the MAGA thinking, that somehow Ukraine invaded Russia.??
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> I do not understand the MAGA thinking, that somehow Ukraine invaded Russia.??
The powerful propaganda machine known as Fox feeds them a steady diet of fear and dopamine all day. All the other networks are talking about Epstein and Fox is harping on about Biden.
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> I do not understand the MAGA thinking, that somehow Ukraine invaded Russia.??
There is no MAGA "thinking". They just parrot whatever their great Führer tells them to think.
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> , but Ukraine was a Nuclear Bomb Powerhouse.
Ukraine never had control of any nuclear weapons any more than Belgium has control of the US weapons stationed there. The weapons Ukraine "gave up" were stationed there by the Soviet Union and under the inherited control of the Russian military after the breakup of the Soviet Union. There were assurances made to Ukraine for its security. But Russia would have considered protecting Ukraine's neutrality and keeping it secure from becoming a western proxy part of that promise.
> Ukraine also prefers peace. I think all Americans should back Ukraine. I do not understand the MAGA thinking, that somehow Ukraine invaded Russia.??
That ignores the actual history. T
Re: I remember what I was relieved... (Score:1)
Yeah. They gave their nukes away for promises. Worked out great. What a relief.
Russians and Ukraine both also set the precedent that a "nuclear deterent" is no deterrent against getting droned or having enemy spies assasinate your military leadership on your own soil.
Makes everyone safer.
Half of me thinks someone getting nuked is necessary to remind people why elective foreign military adventures are "bad" and should be avoided.
The other half of me suspects that has even odds of working against my stated ob
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Every time I watch a WWII movie, I think: "war is bad". Even the Gulf war.. I think: "war is bad". Think if we could put all of that energy into feeding people, and giving people health care? We would be in the "Star Trek" world by now.
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No kidding. But "si vis pacem para bellum". Many nations aspire to lasting peace, but as it turns out there's always some ambitious a-hole who thinks their neighbour's land is there for the taking.
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I think Trump is going to go for Greenland, and perhaps Canada next. Greenland is easy, they have about 5,000 people there, I guess. It won't be an invasion, really, it will just to be to set up a military base and declare that it is America. Canada is hard. I hope, I will, Americans will stand up to our Dictator Trump if/when he pulls this bullshit.
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> Every time I watch a WWII movie, I think: "war is bad". Even the Gulf war.. I think: "war is bad". Think if we could put all of that energy into feeding people, and giving people health care? We would be in the "Star Trek" world by now.
The problem with investing our energy in health care than the tools of war is that this has to be a universal goal or there will be someone that takes advantage of the situation to roll over the people that didn't make preparations to repel invaders. If you seek peace then prepare for war, am I right?
Every time I watch a WW2 documentary I am fascinated in how quickly technology advanced in such a short period of time. The start of WW2 was a war much like how WW1 ended, with big battleships duking it out i
Re: I remember what I was relieved... (Score:1)
> I'll just point out that if we don't provide sufficient funds to a military force then that is effectively an invitation for war.
After Pearl Harbor, the question on everyone's mind was, "Why weren't we ready?" After many decades of peace, and only a few purely elective wars, the question on everyone's mind became, "Why are we wasting our money on this?"
That question drove the disarmement of the 90s and still rules the day. Believe me folks, it does. I have an courtside seat. I can tell.
My fear is that despite the wakeup calls, from 9/11 to Crimea to the Donbas, we'll be asking ourselves "why weren't we ready?" all over again before m
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I will concede that WWII accelerated the technologies of radar, and computers. There must be a better way.
in deathrace 2000 you get lots of points for killi (Score:2)
in deathrace 2000 you get lots of points for killing french
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Ironically, the French are the ones who are backing Ukraine the most. They do not want another NAZI like Hitler invader going into Europe like Putin is. Ironically, the Americans, my Country, is burring our heads into the sand and pretending that nothing is happening. We are covering our ears and going: "no no no no".
Re: in deathrace 2000 you get lots of points for k (Score:2)
You donâ(TM)t write like an American, and your capitalisation reminds me of certain other languages. Where were you born or emigrate from?
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I capitalize the first word in every sentence, and I capitalize nouns like countries, as I was taught to do in English class in American free school. YA.. free school. I am who I am. I seem to get the point across, which is the point.
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Russia also agreed to defend them. At the time, the concept of a "Russian invasion" was not on the cards at all. There was a general lack of understanding of how imperialism works.
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I call it an Oligarchy. I see Russia as an Oligarchy on steroids. Trump wants America to be an oligarchy, in my humble opinion. I hope he loses big.
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America agreed to defend them in the case of a Russian invasion.
Read the treaty, that's just not true. America agreed to consult with other nations. The billions of dollars of aid given went far beyond that promise.