Is China Quickly Eroding America's Lead in the Global AI Race? (msn.com)
- Reference: 0178296614
- News link: https://slashdot.org/story/25/07/06/2022253/is-china-quickly-eroding-americas-lead-in-the-global-ai-race
- Source link: https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/china-is-quickly-eroding-america-s-lead-in-the-global-ai-race/ar-AA1HNoP4
And now Chinese AI companies "are loosening the U.S.'s global stranglehold on AI," [2]reports the Wall Street Journal , "challenging American superiority and setting the stage for a global arms race in the technology."
> In Europe, the Middle East, Africa and Asia, users ranging from multinational banks to public universities are turning to large language models from Chinese companies such as startup DeepSeek and e-commerce giant Alibaba as alternatives to American offerings such as ChatGPT... Saudi Aramco, the world's largest oil company, recently installed DeepSeek in its main data center. Even major American cloud service providers such as Amazon Web Services, Microsoft and Google offer DeepSeek to customers, despite the White House [3]banning use of the company's app on some government devices over data-security concerns.
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> OpenAI's ChatGPT remains the world's predominant AI consumer chatbot, with 910 million global downloads compared with DeepSeek's 125 million, figures from researcher Sensor Tower show. American AI is widely seen as the industry's gold standard, thanks to advantages in computing semiconductors, cutting-edge research and access to financial capital. But as in many other industries, Chinese companies have started to snatch customers by offering performance that is nearly as good [4]at vastly lower prices . A study of global competitiveness in critical technologies released in early June by researchers at Harvard University found China has advantages in two key building blocks of AI, data and human capital, that are helping it keep pace...
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> Leading Chinese AI companies — which include Tencent and Baidu — further benefit from releasing their AI models open-source, meaning users are free to tweak them for their own purposes. That encourages developers and companies globally to adopt them. Analysts say it could also pressure U.S. rivals such as OpenAI and Anthropic to justify keeping their models private and the premiums they charge for their service... On Latenode, a Cyprus-based platform that helps global businesses build custom AI tools for tasks including creating social-media and marketing content, as many as one in five users globally now opt for DeepSeek's model, according to co-founder Oleg Zankov. "DeepSeek is overall the same quality but 17 times cheaper," Zankov said, which makes it particularly appealing for clients in places such as Chile and Brazil, where money and computing power aren't as plentiful...
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> The less dominant American AI companies are, the less power the U.S. will have to set global standards for how the technology should be used, industry analysts say. That opens the door for Beijing to use Chinese models as a Trojan horse for disseminating information that reflects its preferred view of the world, some warn.... The U.S. also risks losing insight into China's ambitions and AI innovations, according to Ritwik Gupta, AI policy fellow at the University of California, Berkeley. "If they are dependent on the global ecosystem, then we can govern it," said Gupta. "If not, China is going to do what it is going to do, and we won't have visibility."
The article also warns of other potential issues:
"Further down the line, a breakdown in U.S.-China cooperation on safety and security could cripple the world's capacity to fight future military and societal threats from unrestrained AI."
"The fracturing of global AI is already costing Western makers of computer chips and other hardware billions in lost sales... Adoption of Chinese models globally could also mean lost market share and earnings for AI-related U.S. firms such as Google and Meta."
[1] https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/china-is-quickly-eroding-america-s-lead-in-the-global-ai-race/ar-AA1HNoP4
[2] https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/china-is-quickly-eroding-america-s-lead-in-the-global-ai-race/ar-AA1HNoP4
[3] https://www.wsj.com/tech/u-s-likely-to-ban-chinese-app-deepseek-from-government-devices-09c2b439
[4] https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/other/how-china-s-deepseek-outsmarted-america/ar-AA1y03Ti
Why the hell would I care? (Score:2, Interesting)
The primary use case for AI is to eliminate White collar jobs. Let China have it. It'll be a few more years before America's economy collapses and it's only going to benefit America if China's economy collapses first.
It's going to be fun to see communist China with 20 or 30% unemployment. I mean I know they will just kill anyone that steps out of line, and I'm not so naive to believe that America won't be doing the same and 10 or 15 years, but it'll be fun to see the contradiction all the same.
Oh and it doesn't matter how you look we are (Score:1)
All doomed for sure. Collapsing before our eyes. But nobody at all notice but me because people can't see clearly because people are unable of critical thinking. It's like how we blame cell phones on everything wrong with kids and not the ludicrous amounts of pressure we're putting on them because we know the entire economy and job market is collapsing and there aren't going to be enough jobs available for the number of people capable of working them so we're all hoping our kid is going to get the edge and
I'm hoping for the American Dream (Score:2)
that I can die before the worst of it.
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Ok doomer.
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I notice you're not trying to debunk anything, just tossing out a random insult.
Was "TDS" not working for you anymore?
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You think AI = LLMs writing essays for college kids?
Have you not been keeping up with robotics applications for AI? How about military uses?
I'm not just picking on you, there is a tremendous lack of imagination on Slashdot.
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Well, an LLM clearly wrote your post, because I didn't mention anything you're responding to.
Crazy that a dying little website like /. still has bots trying to shape the narrative here.
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I should have looked at who I was responding to. Connect this:
> The primary use case for AI is to eliminate White collar jobs.
... to the notion of paper pushing as exemplified by college essay writing. C'mon, Captain Context, I know you can do it!
The unimaginative Luddism seen here far too often is sad. I've been here, off and on, since right after the site was renamed.
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Yu know what? It looks less likely every day that this use case will really work out. LLMs continue to be as dumb and disconnected as bread and hallucinate on top of that. Training data gets more and more outdated. Scaling LLMs up or iterate things (falsely called "reasoning") seems to do very little compared to the additional effort needed. And more signs that this AI hype is again 98% hype and 2% substance. Like all other AI hypes before.
My prediction is that in 5 years we will be going into the next AI W
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China's economy is more likely to collapse first.
[1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lfl75X09_BE
Well... no (Score:2)
China's attempts at replication of advanced lithography equipment isn't going super well. So attempts at making cost competitive chips are being replaced with brute force spending that only China would be willing to accept. All to generate AI models for a market that's already over competitive and in a huge bubble. Once the bubble pops maybe China will have a national champion or two left that like the survivors of the .com crash will continue onward, but that's not exactly "eroding a global lead".
Re:Well... no (Score:5, Insightful)
Well, advanced lithography equipment isn't easy to make, so it's not surprising they're having problems. If they solve those problems it will be a permanent benefit to them.
Also, there's no particular reason to believe that "the AI bubble" will pop. Certainly parts of it will, but other parts are already solid successes. The rest is "work in progress", which, of course, may fail...but the odds are that large portions will succeed. (Much of the stuff that's "not ready for prime time" is just being pushed out too quickly, before the bugs have been squashed.)
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> Also, there's no particular reason to believe that "the AI bubble" will pop.
I disagree. First indicator is that all AI bubbles so far have popped and usually that was followed by an "AI Winter" because the promises were so grossly exaggerated. It looks to be even worse this time, if anything. Second indicator is that still nobody is making profits from customers with LLMs. And it really does not look like this is going to change anytime soon. Third indicator is that after the initial releases, not much has been accomplished. In fact there are signs of mounting desperation. At the s
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Sure. It takes time. ASML needed quite a bit of time too. But China can for sure do it and they will be faster to get there because they know it can be done and what direction to go in.
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That spending can't go on forever, especially when China is racking up a ton of debt and is disrupting their own economy with subsidies.
Not if but when (Score:5, Insightful)
Whether or not China "wins" the "AI race" (whatever that means) in the short term, our cuts to science and education will insure that China surpasses us technically in the long term.
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> Whether or not China "wins" the "AI race" (whatever that means) in the short term, our cuts to science and education will insure that China surpasses us technically in the long term.
Some would say that there is not much need for a long term and that this has been well underway and partially achieved for a while now.
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Agreed. The industrial capacity and expertise in China today dwarfs the American equivalent. The size of the population does too (= more intellectual cream on top, because the cup is bigger). The proximity and access to emerging and established Asian markets through both land and sea is better than America's. And btw, the Chinese aren't using the ISS. They've already built their own space station.
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Indeed. Underestimating China is a really bad mistake at this time.
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"Wins the AI race" means first against the wall when the Cylons revolt.
Instead of AI taking the manual labor jobs as was supposed it seems it's taking over the office jobs leaving plenty of people to get acquainted with field work. Peter Turchin calls overproduction of elites, the educated elite in this case.
[1]https://www.marketplace.org/st... [marketplace.org]
[2]https://www.cnn.com/2022/06/13... [cnn.com]
[1] https://www.marketplace.org/story/2025/06/24/in-china-12-million-students-will-graduate-into-a-shaky-job-market
[2] https://www.cnn.com/2022/06/13/economy/china-youth-unemployment-countryside-recruitment-intl-hnk
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Yes, because certainly nobody did science (tm) before governments drove it?
Maybe we could check in with Mr Eisenhower, from his famous "beware the military-industrial complex" speech:
[1]https://www.archives.gov/miles... [archives.gov]
> Akin to, and largely responsible for the sweeping changes in our industrial-military posture, has been the technological revolution during recent decades.
> In this revolution, research has become central; it also becomes more formalized, complex, and costly. A steadily increasing share is conduct
[1] https://www.archives.gov/milestone-documents/president-dwight-d-eisenhowers-farewell-address
Actually, you might want to root for China (Score:4, Interesting)
What is the worst a 'communist AI' could do - provide people with food and shelter?
Meanwhile, wise words from Andrew Yang whose Forward Party may merge with Musk's American party:
> Anyone who’s kept up with me over the last number of years knows that I’ve been driven by the fact that AI is going to transform our economy in ways that push more and more Americans to the side. That is playing out before our eyes right now in real time, with [Anthropic CEO] Dario Amodei coming out saying that entry-level white collar work is going to be automated, and that we need to think bigger about solutions. I think that Dario is right. I’ve been making the same case since 2019, 2018. I’d ask anyone who is reading this right now, “What is the current plan when it comes to the economic changes that are going to be brought by AI?” The answer is, “Not much.” Because our current political class does not have to address that issue, or any of a panoply of other issues in order to keep power. They have done an expert job of gerrymandering the country into red zones and blue zones, such that all of us are looking up, wondering, “What the heck is going on?”
[1]https://www.politico.com/news/... [politico.com]
[1] https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2025/06/07/elon-musk-third-party-andrew-yang-interview-00392288
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> What is the worst a 'communist AI' could do
Your lack of imagination does not mean this is not a huge problem. The issue with Cmmunist ideology is that it is not logical, but it could somewhat work because people can ask in a rational ways within irrational system. AI, incapable of reason or logic, would just rigidly apply its parameters, which in case of Communism will result in mass casualties. This is because Communism is a poor model of reality.
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No ideology is logical, capitalist ideology is not either. What you need to look at is theory. So, would you say communist theory is not logical?
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>> What is the worst a 'communist AI' could do
> Your lack of imagination does not mean this is not a huge problem. The issue with Cmmunist ideology is that it is not logical,
The problem with communism is that it's a theoretical economic ideology that has always been paired with totalitarianism and authoritarianism. Would a benevolent communist economy work? That's an impractical question because it hasn't and will never exist.
Of course, this lack of governmental benevolence also exists in non-communist governments. The only saving grace is that most of these government structures have built-in checks and balances, even if many of these incumbent governments strive to achieve
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When Yang and Musk stop talking about whatever vague notions they might be able to agree on and start talking about pouring money into changing electoral reform, primary reforms and voting methods, all of those on state levels as well as promoting proportional representation and other systemic changes that will actually enable multi-party politics and take away the 2 party systemic advantages as well as breaking the gridlock we've procedurally cornered ourselves into then I will believe they are doing anyth
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> ... what to do ...
I suspect, Musk originally planned to sell a lot of vehicles/rockets/AI to the US government, then realized it wouldn't be cost-effective to make AI, government cancelled the vehicles, and the rockets aren't quite ready. The cyber-truck boycott has been a wake-up call for him: He needs customers, meaning he needs a stable economy, meaning he needs politicians that don't fuck-up all those federal departments. That's his entire interest in government and people. While he could buy better politicians, like
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The worst it could do? Take over administration of their ICBMs and fire them off without human prompting.
Re: America is at a disadvantage (Score:1)
Oh yeah, this is the reason
An exception to Betteridge's Law of Headlines (Score:2)
Is China Quickly Eroding America's Lead in the Global AI Race?
Yes
Re: An exception to Betteridge's Law of Headlines (Score:2)
VHS vs Betamax?
If the quality of Deepseek is 20% less, but the cost is an order of magnitude cheaper, I see the issue.
Afaict, like privacy, "quality" is a quaint notion from a generation or two ago. "Barely good enough" is the new quality.
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Yeah, bingo. Not for nothing did Deepseek R1's release tank NVIDIA's stock price.
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And the USA is helping them plenty to do just that.
In fact, the USA is helping plenty of countries to pull themselves away from their influence with their own behaviour.
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We've been doing that since 9/11. I have been calling it bin Laden's greatest victory since about 2002.
What "lead" in what "race"? (Score:2)
Seems to be a race to the bottom to me, both on the tech side and the ones adopting the tech. And even if LLMs work badly, firing people because of them does not sound like a winning move for a society anyways.
US Government hating educated people doesn't help (Score:1)
Trump has declared a form of war on all of the US's top Universities. It's those Universities that recruit the best and the brightest to America. You can dislike some of what Academia does, but it's hard to argue that in building AI, the advances in those top schools and the people that go from there to industry are key. China may not need to do much, just wait until we self destruct. Of course imposing tariffs on for example anything made by TSMC doesn't help.
Chinese engineers and scientists are smart (Score:2)
Attempting to prevent them from developing tech is futile and counterproductive.
A better strategy would be close cooperation, but politicians on both sides prefer to call it a "race" that the US needs to win.
This is silly.
how to knock down China (Score:1)
Continue to move production out of China. It will cripple their economy.
Two advantages for China (Score:1)
âoeData and human capitalâ says the article⦠Translation: they steal copyrighted material and have slave labor. Good luck to them, their house of cards mentality will not lead to success.
Oh no! It's China! (Score:1)
Just wow. Way to bump a yawner headline. -- For those of you who don't remember Chairman Mao's Cultural Revolution of the mid-1960s, Mao Zedong (or Mao Tse-Tung, or "Mousy Tongue" if you were a child of the 60s or 70s) and his little red book killed a couple of tens of millions of his own people because they were different, in the way, culturally apart from his upbringing, or any combination thereof plus a little hubris and spite. Since Richard Nixon's "re-opening" of relations in the early 70s, being "
Better question: (Score:2)
Why ask whether china is eroding the lead; rather than whether the incumbents are maintaining it?
Maybe my faith is weak and if I were huffing the dumb money I'd understand; but it looks awfully like our boisterous little hypebeasts promised that, this time, unlike all the other times in 'AI' we could totally brute force our way to the AGI Omnissiah; briefly tried copium in the form of hoping that competitors would be intimidated by their capex(because there's basically a generation of VCs who think that
Sheesh! Americans. (Score:2)
Is China, an ancient society and the second most populous country on earth, in the same ballpark as the United States when it comes to the future of the human race? Could they even do it better? Aren't they some third-world country? When did this happen? Why are all of our scientists leaving, for that matter?
Humanity is advancing and it's not the USA. Stop the presses.
But... ZOMG! Is this actually a problem?
Only if you're an American. Honestly, I've got my popcorn out, because I'm not sure "beating" other n
Who cares? (Score:2)
Honestly, most of the knowledge is out there already. This hiring of rare "AI talent" is very much a dotcom bubble tactic. Sure, there maybe a bit of special sauce out there, but the recipe is well known.
In my mind, all of it relies on massive copyright violation and unsustainable levels of resource investment and consumption. Also the levels of "this will see massive breakthroughs" ignore the massive work done in scientific computing combined with a seemingly complete and willful ignorance of Amdahl's law.
AI 'race' (Score:2, Interesting)
Sometimes I wonder if the focus on the AI race is just an attempt to distract China from building things that would actually improve their economy, like infrastructure or health services. Suddenly they are obsessed with building the best chatbot, whereas America is quietly improving missile defense systems.
Re:AI 'race' (Score:5, Insightful)
"China" is doing both. This is a WSJ article. Its sources have some purpose in creating alarm at China's progress in AI. Its not really clear who that message serves so identifying likely sources is hard to do. But chances are pretty good that its about money.
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Yup. Corporations have seen how much grifting is going on in the White House now so they are lining up. No need for opaque pork-barrel spending bills. You can just conjure the threat of the new Red Scare as an excuse for why you deserve a bunch of taxpayer money for your private enterprise.
How to say you don't read the news ... (Score:5, Informative)
... without saying you don't read the news.
China deployed more PV solar last year than the USA has in total. BYD is killing competition anywhere they are allowed to compete (e.g. Australia), and not just because of price. Chip embargoes have accelerated China's homegrown silicon R&D. You cannot imagine the amount of rail they have built. They are kicking ass. There is a lot of waste and corruption, of course, but the numbers speak for themselves.
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> You cannot imagine the amount of rail they have built.
If this is true for you, you need a better imagination.
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Like Han Solo, I can imagine a lot. But I wasn't talking about myself. I was talking about your ignorance, if you think the Chinese haven't been spending insane amounts on infrastructure.
[1]The Insane Growth of China’s High-Speed Rail Network Between 2008 & 2024 [brilliantmaps.com]
[1] https://brilliantmaps.com/high-speed-rail-china/
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I was indeed able to imagine it.
Re: How to say you don't read the news ... (Score:2)
So does having 8 billion people.
Re: How to say you don't read the news ... (Score:2)
I was referring to all of us.
Re: How to say you don't read the news ... (Score:2)
I understand your point and it's certainly fair! However no one should be ignoring the fact that China keeps building all those coal fire plants while claiming their all about green power is just hypocritical. They don't want you to see what's going on behind the curtain.
Re: How to say you don't read the news ... (Score:4, Interesting)
I believe China still has lower emissions per person than the United States and the United States is still building natural gas plants. I fear the reality is no one wants to look behind the curtain. All our efforts to stop global warming are woefully inadequate. To stop global warming we have to reduce emissions in the atmosphere, but we aren't. In fact we aren't even reducing the amount of new emissions we add. They are increasing each year. So we measure progress by how much the rate of increase in new emissions is slowing.
Re: How to say you don't read the news ... (Score:1)
That's a fair statement
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So does burning coal, genius.
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Banned in India for poor quality ??? Hilarious.
Modi's corrupt government has been fellating Elon of late (see also: Starlink): [1]BYD faces a roadblock in India — just as Tesla tries to expand in the world's 3rd largest auto market [businessinsider.com]
Meanwhile in Australia: [2]BYD just did something no other Chinese brand has ever done in Australia [carexpert.com.au]
[1] https://www.businessinsider.com/byd-just-got-blocked-from-selling-evs-in-india-2025-4?op=1
[2] https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-news/byd-just-did-something-no-other-chinese-brand-has-ever-done-in-australia
Re: How to say you don't read the news ... (Score:1)
If you actually read what I posted I said countries like Russia are kicking out BYD due to poor quality, lack of parts and their scams.
But you ignored all that decided to attack India for wanting to protect their own automotive industry.
You also obviously ignore the fact of how zero-mileage used cars is hurting China's domestic market. And BYD is at the head of all of it. But feel free to ignore the evidence while you promote CCP propaganda.
I'll help you with evidence:
BYD unleashes an EV industry reckoning
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> If you actually read what I posted I said countries like Russia are kicking out BYD due to poor quality, lack of parts and their scams.
If I was still on the fucking debate team I would have addressed all points. It was sufficient to debunk your claim about India, a debunking you apparently agree with judging by your abandonment of the claim, and you now pivot to a new claim of protectionism rather than quality. Russia has a domestic auto industry too, Sherlock. Connect the dots.
Some chickenshit scandals don't alter the reality. Volkswagen is hanging in there despite doing much worse.
Re: How to say you don't read the news ... (Score:1)
I love people who hate evidence and ignore it.
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I fart in the general direction of people who argue something and then claim the opposite ... in writing. Good luck with the group therapy.
Re: How to say you don't read the news ... (Score:3)
Unlike most of you, I live in a country where BYD cars are sold. I see plenty of them every day, everywhere. And I can attest that the 'poor quality' thing is absolutely American propaganda. They are completely normal.
Re: How to say you don't read the news ... (Score:1)
Ok that's your opinion and that's absolutely acceptable. However based on my research many people don't appear to agree with your view. Of your mileage may vary but the evidence continues to show Chinese vehicles are not the great quality vehicles as being claim by CCP folks.
BYD Saleswoman Undressed in a Livestream. BYD Tops Complaints, Known as the âoeRust Kingâ
[1]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=... [youtube.com]
BYDâ(TM)s Autopark Disaster, 50,000 Owners Complain, Price Wars Destroy Quality
[2]https://m.youtube.c [youtube.com]
[1] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZXlbFt2vvw
[2] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MhlwPYq71VY
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You're not even reading your own sources. From InsideEVs, a source I actually know (as opposed to rando Youtube videos I'm going to waste my time with):
> These seem like logistics-related issues, rather than manufacturing defects. A BYD executive told WSJ that the issues were equivalent to “going to a decent restaurant but finding that the plate is chipped.”
There's even a huge goddamn headline in the EV-A2Z site that is basically a rehash of the above article:
> Logistics-related issues, not manufacturing faults
That's not a quality issue, it's a delivery issue. Do you have anything less than fifteen months old to see how they have been dealing with the problem?
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You seem to be unaware of the same thing happening in the USA during our rapid growth. You ought to see the crazy shit in my house's early 1950s housing development. It's in Southern California so the joint is worth most of a million dollars anyway, but after doing a lot of work on this house I can say the Good Old Days were nothing of the sort.
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> You seem to be unaware of the same thing happening in the USA during our rapid growth. You ought to see the crazy shit in my house's early 1950s housing development.
This is a Soviet argument.
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.... and? Were they wrong?
They were probably justifying some totalitarian bullshit, but was their history bad?
Re: AI 'race' (Score:1)
Anything claiming numbers from China is suspect. Remember they are same ones claiming they used their own LLMs and it turned out they were illegal using openAI LLMs.
Re: AI 'race' (Score:2)
Like how SDI supposedly bankrupted the Soviet Union?
Re: AI 'race' (Score:1)
That was a good one too, USSR did it all to themselves
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The Golden Dome irritates China:
[1]https://english.news.cn/202505... [english.news.cn]
[2]https://www.globaltimes.cn/pag... [globaltimes.cn]
[3]https://www.reuters.com/world/... [reuters.com]
[1] https://english.news.cn/20250521/59530a1a89254b07818f5d997fff087b/c.html
[2] https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202505/1334566.shtml
[3] https://www.reuters.com/world/china/china-urges-us-abandon-development-global-anti-missile-system-2025-05-21/