Will GM's Bet on Battery Tech Jumpstart the Transition to Electric Cars?
- Reference: 0177734333
- News link: https://hardware.slashdot.org/story/25/05/25/0618250/will-gms-bet-on-battery-tech-jumpstart-the-transition-to-electric-cars
- Source link:
At $33,600 the company's Chevy Equinox is one of the cheapest EVs in America (only $5,000 more than the gas-powered model). "But it also recently announced a novel type of battery that promises to be significantly cheaper, while still providing long range, due to be rolled out in 2028..."
> Like many of its competitors, GM has made huge investments in EV battery factories, and in production lines for the vehicles themselves, and it faces challenges in generating a return on investment in the short term... In the long run, however, GM's focus on creating a North American supply chain for batteries could prove savvy, says David Whiston, U.S. auto equities analyst at Morningstar. The company is investing [2]$625 million to mine lithium in Nevada . It is working on sourcing every material and every part in its batteries domestically, down to the copper and aluminum foils that go into its cells, says [battery and sustainability lead Kurt] Kelty...
>
> GM recently unveiled a new type of battery the company has been working on for a decade called lithium manganese-rich batteries, or LMR. These batteries combine the low cost of LFP batteries with the longer range of conventional, expensive lithium-ion batteries. What makes LMR batteries more affordable is that they use far less nickel, cobalt and other minerals that have become increasingly expensive. Instead, they use more manganese, a common element... The company's next initiative, says Kelty, is to further drive down the cost of its batteries by putting more of another common element, silicon, into them.
"If GM can continue to grow demand for its EVs, in a few years the rollout of its latest tech could give it a price and performance advantage..." the article points out.
> While the EV transition is happening [3]more slowly than projected in the U.S. , GM hiring Kelty is a bet that the country's current EV struggles are temporary, and that technologists like Kelty will help GM get past them. "When we reach cost parity with [internal combustion engine] vehicles, I think that's one big milestone," says Kelty. "When you get there, then you're really going to see the transition happen very quickly — and we're not that far away from it."
[1] https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/an-ex-tesla-engineer-is-turning-evs-into-affordable-family-cars/ar-AA1FnFpi
[2] https://www.wsj.com/business/autos/lithium-americas-says-gm-boosts-investment-168d1dc9
[3] https://www.wsj.com/business/autos/dealers-to-gm-we-want-hybrids-5387d2bf
In before ... (Score:2)
... the neophobes, Big Oil astroturfers, and assorted kooks who slag EVs for reasons every EV owner swears doesn't exist.
I'm sure the introduction of the automobile was much the same.
Re: (Score:2)
Here's my two big reasons, neither of which you list.
It drives great: super acceleration, super smooth, quiet, fast. Roomier inside than it would be if it were carrying around all the ICE baggage (for the same sized body shell).
Save money. Not from the feds, mine didn't qualify for that protectionist rebate. Charges up for $5-$10 a "tank" overnight in my garage. Don't have to spend any time at gas stations, unless on a roadtrip (in which case it costs the same as gas and takes a little longer, account
"Jumpstart"? (Score:2)
The move to EVs is well underway and gaining momentum: [1]https://tech.slashdot.org/stor... [slashdot.org] The dumb business move at this point would be to listen to the current Washington administration and stop investing in the technology - a sure way to cede the world market to BYD or other Chinese manufacturers, or to other multinational auto companies. I suppose with enough protectionism, the US could be the last holdout manufacturing gasoline cars for domestic consumption, but it's not even clear that would work with
[1] https://tech.slashdot.org/story/25/05/19/0149259/ev-sales-keep-growing-in-the-us-represent-20-of-global-car-sales-and-half-in-china
The EV1 GM? (Score:3)
That had a perfectly fine electric vehicle 30 years ago and shit canned it and crushed them?
Fuck em
Re: (Score:3)
> That had a perfectly fine electric vehicle 30 years ago and shit canned it and crushed them?
The EV1 was all bespoke, expensive to build, unprofitable to sell. It was a test project to see if the tech was viable against gassers yet, and it wasn't.
Re: (Score:2)
And then they bought the patent holder of NiMH* battery technology and essentially [1]killed off [wikipedia.org] the production of vehicle sized batteries.
Fool us once, shame on you. Fool us twice, shame on us. GM can just die in a fire.
*At the time, the front runner for EV use. Only later to be supplanted by Lithium chemistries.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_Conversion_Devices#Patent_encumbrance
Re: (Score:2)
> That had a perfectly fine electric vehicle 30 years ago and shit canned it and crushed them?
"Perfectly fine". You heard it here first boys. It was perfectly fine. Your EV range only needs to be 70miles and full of lead. That is perfectly fine even when it costs far more than the media car of the day. Forget the fact that GM made a $50k loss on each car made. It was "perfectly fine". I mean sure TopGear didn't feature the car, but The Fin Review did calling it "economically infeasible". Truly a work of perfection.
Calling the car that literally started the concept of range anxiety "perfectly fine" i
Don't forget the Chevy Volt... (Score:2)
The Volt was something that addressed the range anxiety issue in a decent manner, with a usable range extender. Charge it, take it to a gas station and fill it up... who cares. One could just use it as a regular car if one didn't have a dedicated charger, or an EV with one. Best of all worlds.
GM killed it.
The only thing similar are bespoke Edison retrofits and the RAMCharger, which isn't even in production yet (and weighs ~7500 pounds.) It would be nice to see more serial hybrids.
Probably the best solut
GM is toast (Score:2)
They will survive a short bit longer than Stellantis, but after that - it will be a quick death. The number of mistakes the leadership under Barra has made are too plentiful to name, but the most idiotic one by far has to be the removal of CarPlay/Android Auto.
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What are the specific metrics you are referring to when talking about diminishing returns for battery advances, and what source can you point to that demonstrates that this is more than a little fantasy burbling around in your head?
Because:
- In 2015, I got my first EV with a range of 90 miles (Renault Zoe)
- In 2018, I replaced it with a new Zoe, with a range of 186 miles
- In 2020, I replaced it with the third gen Zoe, with a range of 245 miles
- The price of those cars was constant, adjusting for inflation
-
Re: (Score:2)
Do you understand what “diminishing returns” actually means as a phrase? It means you would have to show that the yoy advances for a particular metric for batteries have been falling consistently over time. Which metric do you have in mind?
The real issue (Score:5, Informative)
The real issue is infrastructure. people who live in apartments canâ(TM)t charge their cars and there arenâ(TM)t enough charging stations at work for people to plug in there.
people donâ(TM)t have time to wait 30 minutes or an hour to charge their car. They just plain donâ(TM)t. unless there was charging at grocery stores or something, which there also isnâ(TM)t!
Add to this the fact that about half the United States lives in a place that has really cold weather in winter and loses mileage. Battery heaters be damned.
The people who try and hand wave away these issues in the comments are living in an ivory tower. They have no idea what the average American is struggling through. there is no transition to EVS without enormous infrastructure investment in America, and since that obviously wonâ(TM)t be happening anytime in the next four years, I guarantee you that these EV investments from car companies are going to be a bust.
Re: (Score:1)
Whoops, I didn't get in before you (see my post below), but good on ya for covering the Greatest Hits of EV Phobia.
Re: (Score:2)
I notice you make no attempt whatsoever to refute any of his claims.
And you never will.
(One of them has some pretty compelling evidence that it's . . . not the issue he claims, but I'll leave it you to fail to figure out which.)
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If you live in an area with seriously cold weather people will we using engine block heaters on their ICE vehicles anyhow. So there’s your outlets.
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Best I can figure, digging through some [1]National Household Travel Survey [ornl.gov] data, something like 20% of vehicles are owned by people who rent their homes. Unfortunately it's not straightforward to tease out apartment owners vs. home/condo renters but I feel it's safe to say that people who live in apartments make up less than 1/5th of all vehicle owners. This kinda makes sense since if you live in a city you 1) Have little to no space to store a personal vehicle, and 2) have easier access to work and commerce
[1] https://nhts.ornl.gov/
Re: (Score:2)
> "I feel it's safe to say that people who live in apartments make up less than 1/5th of all vehicle owners."
I think that estimate is too low, especially since condos are also often affected and also houses with no off-street parking.
So it is very much off if you limit it to urban residents. Way more than half probably live in a location where they cannot charge "at home" for whatever the reason might be.
Re: (Score:2)
> I think that estimate is too low, especially since condos are also often affected and also houses with no off-street parking.
The 20% already includes condos (and rented homes). I even said as much. So the number of apartment dwellers (that OP is explicitly talking about) is necessarily fewer than 20%.
> Way more than half probably live in a location where they cannot charge "at home"
I further think it's fair to say that not all those who live in rented houses or condos are unable to charge at home, s
Re: (Score:2)
> So it is very much off if you limit it to urban residents. Way more than half probably live in a location where they cannot charge "at home" for whatever the reason might be.
You are quite possibly correct.
83.3% of the U.S. lives in urban areas, so if 20% of the country can't charge at home, then if you assume 100% of the 16.7% can, at most 20/83.3 or 24% of urban dwellers who own EVs can't charge at home.
But this isn't a complete picture. Those numbers come from a survey of existing EV drivers , and don't include any of the people who bought non-EVs.
If we use California as a benchmark, where roughly 25% of people bought EVs, and if we assume that EV buying percentages are simil
Re: (Score:2)
> But to imply it's a major problem for mass EV adoption is stupid when we can have something like 80% when it's currently about 8%. Anyone seriously making this argument is either brainwashed by some dipshit podcaster/blogger or just looking for an excuse to pooh-pooh change.
> =Smidge=
It depends on what mass adoption means. If it means increasing EVs to 80% of all vehicles, that's perhaps doable. If it means 100%, that's likely problematic. The real problem is if gas cars are no longer available, the remaining 20% have a real transportation problem since mass transit is a poor solution for most Americans.
Re: (Score:3)
> If it means increasing EVs to 80% of all vehicles, that's perhaps doable. If it means 100%, that's likely problematic.
I don't see 100% adoption of EVs as a goal in itself. For me, EVs are one of the mechanisms for reducing pollution and helping the environment. From this point of view it would be great if we manage to get to 80% EV adoption. Heck, even 50% would be excellent, so I wouldn't be bothered at all if we can't get to 100%.
> The real problem is if gas cars are no longer available, the remaining 20% have a real transportation problem since mass transit is a poor solution for most Americans.
Note that there is a feedback mechanism at play. As ICE vehicles become more scarce, their support infrastructure (oil extraction, refineries, gas stations, but also skilled mechanics, spare par
Re: (Score:2)
> I don't see 100% adoption of EVs as a goal in itself.
You weren't one of the California legislators who voted to ban the sale of gasoline cars by 2035.
But there were plenty who were. They really believe that will happen.
Re: (Score:2)
Noone is talking about 100% conversion of the US auto fleet to EVs in the near future. Norway has been above 90% EV market share for new car sales for a few years now, and it’s only just passed 50% share for the whole fleet, because people (obviously) keep cars for many years, with a thriving second hard market. So we really don’t need to worry about the journey from 80% to 100% of the whole fleet in the US for at least a decade, more likely three. At which point, you could reasonably expect man
Re: (Score:2)
> Noone is talking about 100% conversion of the US auto fleet to EVs in the near future.
California is. The current law is a complete ban on sales of new IC vehicles by 2035.
They are talking about exactly that, and they don't give a damn how many people die because of it. (Because in California, without a car, you will not have a job, and homelessness reduces life expectancy by 20 years or more, and makes most wish it was even sooner.)
Re: The real issue (Score:2)
Banning sales of new ICE vehicles and converting the existing fleet are two different things.
Re: (Score:2)
EV sales have kept pace with the ACC II requirements. People are mostly choosing electric cars over ICE. The TCO of an electric car means that the $5000 more you pay for an equivalent EV ends up saving you money in reduced maintenance. Charging stations will lower their prices once there is enough competition that you can just drive down the street to the cheaper "pumps". This fine article is about GM lowering the cost of the batteries. BYD is producing cars in China that charge in 5 minutes (1000kW).
A
Re: (Score:2)
Are you not embarrassed to have replied so stupidly?
I literally pointed out the difference between new sales and conversion of the whole fleet, and you replied by focusing on new sales and let the point about the conversion of the entire fleet float straight over your head
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There are plenty of single family or town houses in dense urban areas that have limited or no off-street parking. Another issue is your electrical service. Older houses often have only 100A electrical service. Adding even a 30A charging circuit might not be possible without an expensive electrical service upgrade. And that's if you can get one. The utility can deny a service upgrade request if the service in your area is already near capacity. I'm very pro EV. I own one myself, and I think there are plenty
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In the worst case, there are workarounds for that, like smart clothes dryer circuit splitters.
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There's no workaround for the lack of generating capacity, and there's no workaround for lack of available power in a neighborhood. Because you're not talking about wiring one house for a charger, you're talking about wiring all of them. In an apartment complex with 200 units, they'd need about 1 1/2 megawatts coming in, in addition to current service. Single family neighborhoods aren't as bad, but there are a lot of them.
And bringing in those circuits means tearing up streets for months, at millions of dol
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So you're saying that the only way to solve the climate crisis is to use ICE engines with genuinely carbon-neutral fuels.
That's going to be about $20/gallon.
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> So you're saying that the only way to solve the climate crisis is to use ICE engines with genuinely carbon-neutral fuels.
> That's going to be about $20/gallon.
We are already at or near the point at which [1]biodiesel from algae need not be more expensive than petrodiesel [archive.org] even using very low technology. You can already buy "green diesel" for under $6/gallon, though it's not available in very many locations. Because it's basically normal diesel but made from bio sources, it doesn't have the drawbacks of biodiesel. You can mix 2-5% biodiesel into it in order to get the desired lubricity without causing any problems, as well.
After separating the lipids for making diesel
[1] https://web.archive.org/web/20250504045741/https://www.nrel.gov/docs/legosti/fy98/24190.pdf
Re: (Score:2)
With the house prices rising as they are, with all of the housing being bought up by hedge funds as it is, and with gen z never going to have enough money to buy homes... 100% of the cars are going to be owned by people who rent their homes, soon enough. And that's the best case scenario - since it's not obvious that gen z is going to be able to own cars even, maybe those will belong to hedge funds, too.
Re: (Score:2)
> Best I can figure, digging through some [1]National Household Travel Survey [ornl.gov] data, something like 20% of vehicles are owned by people who rent their homes.
It's over 40% in California, with one of the highest electricity prices in the US, and where most rentals are apartments or condos (which also don't have places to install chargers). And without California, EVs will never take over from IC. Ever.
> and 2) have easier access to work and commerce through mass transit or even walking.
Mass transit? In the US? Dude, that's some excellent dope you're smoking. Especially in areas where cars are currently the most common. People own cars because they can't use mass transit or walk to work.
EV owning as an apartment renter is definitely a hurdle,
I live
[1] https://nhts.ornl.gov/
Re: (Score:3)
> I live in a fairly small complex, with no enclosed parking . . . Pretty typical complex. It would cost at least a million dollars to install chargers for every parking space (and it has to be every parking space, because every tenant needs to charge every night).
I worked on a large open parking structure with 2% of the spaces having level 2 chargers and the electrical infrastructure to add chargers to another 18% of the spaces - including the up-sizing of the service to the building, the switchgear, transf
Re:The real issue - is buyers (Score:3)
Most people buy used cars so "adoption" really means adoption by people who buy new cars. I think price compared to a new ICE car is really the issue. Once AEV's are as cheap or cheaper than a comparable ICE vehicle sales will explode. I think GM is smart to focus on the real issue - cost.
I don't think infrastructure matters much. The fact that some people live in apartments that lack charging facilities will be solved when buying a used car requires having a way to charge it. Because people who need a car
Re: (Score:2)
While there's no question that charging at home is definitely a big benefit most of the problems you identify have been largely resolved in the last few years. The modern superchargers will add 200+ miles to the car in under 5 minutes, so you're in the same time frame as a gas-stop. The whole range anxiety and the idea that range in winter is a killer is less relevant when you have cars like the Lucid Gravity with a 450 (probably summer) range. You'll loose some, possibly quite a lot, but you'll still g
Re: (Score:2)
> While there's no question that charging at home is definitely a big benefit most of the problems you identify have been largely resolved in the last few years. The modern superchargers will add 200+ miles to the car in under 5 minutes, so you're in the same time frame as a gas-stop.
I also believe that superchargers are the only viable solution to a 100% EV solution for the future. However, we're not there yet. The fastest Tesla Superchargers only do 325kW, so in 5 minutes, that's 27 kWh, which at 4 miles/kWh is around 100 miles. The Chinese car makers are claiming far higher power delivery, but we don't have that in the US so far.
Remember also that these fast charges are only 80% of total battery capacity. So, the true range of all affected cars would be cut by 20%.
Re: (Score:2)
No question that higher wattage charges should be what's installed in any new infrastructure (although getting that amount of power is a challenge in some rural areas). Lucid claims 200 miles in 5 minutes, although this article says a little longer: [1]https://insideevs.com/news/567... [insideevs.com] even at 22 minutes for 300 miles you're still in the pee, coffee and hot-dog type timing. A little longer than gas, but on a road trip, you rarely stop for just gas.
The 80% rule is valid, but for a realistic trip, you're
[1] https://insideevs.com/news/567714/lucid-air-fast-charging-comparison/
Re: (Score:2)
Those concerns are all slowly being addressed and in time will become an even bigger joke than they are today. BEVs won't work for all people in all places today. Much like a compact sedan won't fit the needs for all people in all places.
My old condo was going to need $20k to install two common-use chargers 5 years ago, and the prospect died on the vine when I moved out. Three years later they installed (IIRC) 12 stations for residents that were interested for about the same $20k. I think they have done
Re: (Score:2)
> "there aren't enough charging stations at work for people to plug in there."
And it isn't even that there aren't enough. Many are crap. I wanted to know if the general negativity I was hearing was true. So I went to inspect the closest rapid charging station to me, it was "EV Go" at a WaWa. I did this YESTERDAY...
They have only two slots. Both were empty. Both had CSS and also ancient CHAdeMO cables. The first one I looked at said "CSS not available", even though the connector looked fine to me.
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Ok - EVs don't work for everyone in every place. We all know already.
Economics has shown time and again that when there's demand, the supply with catch up. My region of the US has a high EV adoption rate, level 2 (around 30 miles of charge/hour) and level 3 (DC fast charge) are quite common. Many larger companies have installed charge stations for their employees and more and more shopping centers have them as well.
If GM (or some other OEM) has a battery breakthrough in the next couple of years, ad
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In fairness, my local norcal safeway has numerous tesla charging stations, some of which are actually sometimes occupied. Of course, my local safeway also offers free online ordering and "curbside" pickup, so it only takes 5 minutes at most to do your grocery shopping, never leaving your car.
I just wonder who has $600 a month (Score:2, Troll)
To drop on a fucking car payment. Because that's what the average American is going to need to spend to walk away with one of these vehicles.
There's a reason why if you go to the carvana car loan calculator it defaults to $20,000. That's what most people can afford. Barely.
I'm not sure how things are going to play out. By the look of things we've got about 10 or 15 trillion dollars it's going to exit the economy in the next 4 years and it's never coming back. I'm not sure how we are going to be able
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Our entire transportation system is too expensive for the people we expect to use it.
You mean our entire capitalist system. FTFY.
Remember, it's Joe Biden's fault. Definitely not the orange baboon in charge destroying the economy.
Re: (Score:1)
You're a fucking nutjob.
Re: (Score:2)
Blue Kool-Aid and red Kool-Aid both [1]taste like almonds. [wikipedia.org].
Both parties (which both have billionaires at the highest levels) have spent the last century creating the world we live in. Pretending otherwise makes you part of the problem.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_derangement_syndrome
Re: (Score:1)
Both sides! Name one illegal immigrant billionaire actively running the government under a democrat.
Re: (Score:2)
> Both sides! Name one illegal immigrant billionaire actively running the government under a democrat.
Well there was Obama, he was born in Kenya...
Just kidding, but hey, there are real ways in which the Democrats have willfully contributed to getting us to where we are now. The largely overplayed Fairness Doctrine did little to nothing to keep the news honest, there were simple ways around it like just not covering certain stories. But the restriction on not being able to own multiple media outlets in a given market was wiped away by the TCA, signed into law by Bubba. It's responsible for much of the succes
I love this line of reasoning (Score:2)
The Democrats didn't stop the Republicans from doing all the evil things that the Republicans did so the Democrats are at fault...
Not that I'm a big fan of Bill the Clinton but that shit started under Reagan and yeah he signed the bill after Congress had enough votes to override his veto.
The problem with the Democrats is they are representatives. So if you convince the public to do something boneheaded and stupid the Democrats will just go along with it because they're Representatives not leaders.
Re: (Score:1)
Your entire post reads like it was ghostwritten by a fossil fuel lobbyist who got laid off in 2015 and has been angrily forwarding himself outdated policy memos ever since. Every argument here is a stale rerun of industry spin—completely out of sync with the current state of EV tech, infrastructure rollout, and market momentum. It’s like someone trying to win a debate about streaming by citing Blockbuster’s 2003 annual report—the same year they laughed Netflix out of the room.
> “The real issue is infrastructure.”
Oh good
Re: (Score:2)
"Major cities are already mandating EV-ready installs in new builds and funding curbside and shared charging. You’re describing a temporary rollout delay like it’s divine prophecy. Spoiler: it’s not."
Where the fuck is that power going to come from if the power plants aren't being built?
Curbside charging? Have you ever met a fucking meth addict before? That station will be GONE.
"There isn’t?! Are you high, or just deeply incurious? Walmart. Target. Kroger. Whole Foods. Safeway. Meijer
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> The people who try and hand wave away these issues in the comments are living in an ivory tower.
Correcting the record != handwaving.
1. I have an EV with several generation old charging tech, and I've never waited 30min to charge on a fast charger. Even that car is done in under 20, to say nothing of the actual state of the art today.
2. No where near half of the the USA live in an area cold enough for EVs to be a problem. A small portion do, that's for sure, but EVs do perfectly fine in freezing weather. Sure when it drops below freezing mine puts a little ice symbol on the dash to tell me battery rang
Re: (Score:2)
> people who live in apartments canâ(TM)t charge their cars
So don't buy an electric car if you're in an apartment that doesn't have chargers?
Americans have been poo poo'ing EVs since day one with rationalization after rationalization, and the result is that China is RAPIDLY taking over the automotive world.
Houses are the bigger issue (Score:2)
I think you left out houses. Not all of them have garages large enough to handle the number of family cars that need charging overnight. We have three ungaraged cars. The neighbors have five cars in their driveway. One coworker has ten kids. Everywhere I look from my window, there are cars stuck in the driveways. And it rains and snows here.
The result would be installing/maintaining multiple chargers, all over the driveways. Another coworker already had me repair his EV charger wire after he hit
Re: (Score:3)
As always, it depends.
> The real issue is infrastructure. people who live in apartments canâ(TM)t charge their cars
Location, location, location. Where I live many of the larger apartment complexes have chargers available. They are more likely L2 EVSEs, than fast DC chargers, but if you are home for the evening, they can do the job.
> and there arenâ(TM)t enough charging stations at work for people to plug in there.
It again depends (and it is a chicken/egg problem). Many local companies installed chargers before there was a higher demand, and many employees bought EVs, and now the company has to install new chargers (which takes time). I often walk past companies where there
Re: (Score:2)
Instead of waiting to charge, the owner has to think ahead and charge while it is parked. Almost every car in the world is parked far more than it is moving.
I get it, with the rise of ADHD they might not be able to think 30 minutes ahead.
Life in an apartment has always been one of sacrifices. Welcome to apartment life.
Those of use with an actual house have the space to charge their EV. Many homes even have an attached garage so needing to heat the battery in winter is a non-issue most of the time.
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Ah yes, the eternal struggle: how can the average American possibly survive in a world where their car doesn't magically refill in 3 seconds while they throw a Big Gulp in the trash?
Let’s unpack the apocalypse. No one can charge at home? Except for the 70% of U.S. households that can. No charging at work? Odd, because major employers and parking structures have been installing them for years, but I guess you only park at 7-Eleven. And no charging at grocery stores? I must’ve hallucinated the 15