California Has 48% More EV Chargers Than Gas Nozzles (electrek.co)
- Reference: 0176869397
- News link: https://hardware.slashdot.org/story/25/03/31/0335254/california-has-48-more-ev-chargers-than-gas-nozzles
- Source link: https://electrek.co/2025/03/21/california-50-percent-more-ev-chargers-than-gas-nozzles/
But what about chargers? It turns out that California now has 48% more public and "shared" private EV chargers than the number of gasoline nozzles. (California has 178,000 public and "shared" private EV chargers, versus about 120,000 gas nozzles.) And beyond that public network, there's more than 700,000 Level 2 chargers installed in single-family California homes, according to the California Energy Commission.
Of the 178,000 public/"shared" private chargers, "Over 162,000 are Level 2 chargers," according to [2]an announcement from the governor's office , while nearly 17,000 are fast chargers. (A chart shows a 41% jump in 2024 — though the EV news site Electrek notes that of the 73,537 chargers added in 2024, nearly 38,000 are newly installed, while the other 35,554 were already plugged in before 2024 but just recently identified.)
> California [3]approved a $1.4 billion investment plan in December to expand zero-emission transportation infrastructure. The plan funds projects like the Fast Charge California Project, which has earmarked $55 million of funding to install DC fast chargers at businesses and publicly accessible locations.
[1] https://www.energy.ca.gov/news/2025-01/californias-zev-momentum-rolls-2025
[2] https://www.gov.ca.gov/2025/03/20/california-now-has-48-more-ev-chargers-than-gasoline-nozzles-in-the-state/
[3] https://www.energy.ca.gov/news/2024-12/cec-approves-14-billion-plan-expand-zero-emission-transportation-infrastructure
Plus a bonus (Score:5, Informative)
I don't know the actual percentage, but many EV owners also have their own private charging station at home (not shared) so they may not frequently use public charging stations at all. I don't think I've used a public charger more than maybe 10-12 times in the last 5 years. Some of those folks may even use "renewable energy" to supply those electrons (I don't).
Best,
Re: (Score:3)
Quick lookup suggests that [1]about 44% [census.gov] (based on an owner-occupied rate of 55.8%) of California residents rent their living space and likely have limited or no access to charge at home.
=Smidge=
[1] https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/CA/RHI725223
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And of the remainer, a significant portion have no off-street parking, or it's in use as storage (like garages in cities.)
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And the one third that can have access to private charging asks why everyone else isn't just like them. The haves are entitled, whether it's the third that have garages, the wealthy landowners that can vote, or the top one percent that now controls our politics and media. It's one thing to understand the problem, it's another to do anything about it.
The haves are interested in society being driven toward less and less access to home ownership and, at the same time, are not interesting in solving access to
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> Everything devolves into politics and the grievances of the proletariat.
Everything is related to politics, and our economic system which was designed to transfer wealth upwards. The nation was designed by landed white men who wanted to preserve their privilege; mission accomplished.
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> You can feel free to transfer your wealth upward by purchasing petrol instead.
As I cannot charge on-street, and I cannot charge off-street, and I cannot charge at work, and I cannot charge at work, and I cannot reasonably take the bus, I have no other choice. And as this situation was deliberately created by a conspiracy of oil, car, rubber, and other industrial corporations, I don't feel particularly guilty about it. As long as you various ass clowns are in denial about it, there's nothing to be done anyway.
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This is such a garbage argument (in the US at least.) Anyone can open a SEP IRA and many can get into a Roth or 401k. You can invest after tax dollars in also. Pick investments wisely. That rich corp could be working for you.
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Does the summary not state
> And beyond that public network, there's more than 700,000 Level 2 chargers installed in single-family California homes, according to the California Energy Commission
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It's actually easier for rentals than for home-owners; California can simply require new rental licenses require access to an EV charger. Right now you can find tons of rentals in California that come with an EV (https://www.apartments.com/bay-area-ca/ev-charging/), requiring access would make it easier for those renting to own an EV.
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I had no problem accessing a charger when I rented. Do American rentals come with BYO solar panels / generator?
But in any case given how EVs in California still make up less than 5% it's clear that access to home charging isn't the limiting factor.
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That was literally in the summary. Didn't even have to RTFA.
"there's more than 700,000 Level 2 chargers installed in single-family California homes"
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That doesn't capture them all. You don't need an L2 charger at all. You can plug it into a 120V or 240v outlet and use the charging cable that used to come with all Teslas (now I think it's a few hundred bucks). A standard 4-prong 240V outlet (normally used for electric stoves and electric clothes dryers) and charge at a rate of about 30 miles of range per hour. That's actually what I use. Even if the battery is completely flat, you can plug in when you get home from work and it's fully charged in the
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Sure, but the important point is, that's one charger per vehicle. How many vehicles share a gas pump nozzle?
Hotcakes make up less than 10% of breakfast sales (Score:2)
Fully-electric vehicles (BEVs) were 8.1% of all U.S. light vehicle sales in 2024.
if charging only took 48% longer than refueling (Score:2)
otoh, lots of people charge at home. I guess, those numbers are not well suited for a comparison.
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That may be, but the decision to buy an expensive electrical vehicle also depends on the range and the question if you can use it for a return trip if you go on a holiday. So even if you mainly charge at home, you probably want a good infrastructure.
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Renting a gas burner for the occasional long trip is also an option.
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> Renting a gas burner for the occasional long trip is also an option.
So, why would I want to spend more $$ for a vehicle that is so much more inconvenient than my ICE?
I mean, with my ICE...I don't have to rent a vehicle for anything, it does everything and fits ever use case I want for a private vehicle.
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> how many long trips a year do you take. how many do you think the average driver takes per year. how long do you think the median commute is
Doesn't matter.
I don't want to spend extra money niche vehicle that is less convenient than I currently own with ICE.
I don't have the money for a specialty vehicle in addition to my fully functional multipurpose vehicle.
If I had spare cash and wanted a specialty vehicle...I'd likely buy and restore an old CJ7 Jeep to something I could go off-roading with...for fun,
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> So, why would I want to spend more $$ for a vehicle that is so much more inconvenient than my ICE?
What makes you say spend more money? With the various grants available along with the fuck-all cost of electricity, and virtually zero maintenance you can own a car, and rent a car, and still break even.
Also what makes ICE more convenient? To me inconvenience is having to detour to a fuel station to fill up a gas guzzler compared to my EV which I get into every morning with a full battery.
Re: if charging only took 48% longer than refuelin (Score:2)
Renting a vehicle is expensive. When I go on vacation I visit two cities so last year I flew to city 1 and picked up a rental and drove it to city 2 and dropped it off and flew home. Last year there were SUVs for 50/day. Not anymore! Even economy vehicles this year are 200/day. It is literally cheaper for me to fly from city 1 to city 2. Fortunately we can borrow a car in each city. My point is that I would never want to have to rely on renting a vehicle for making a trip anywhere.
Re: I can hear the mental gymnastics now (Score:3)
Once again, most of the EVs in Norway are used near the coast where it hardly goes below zero. Also the citizens are basically paid with oil money to put up with an EV (so how green is it really?)
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Doesn't like 80% of Norway live "near the coast" and all of Norway lives on a higher latitude than all of the USA?
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"Also the citizens are basically paid with oil money..."
Right, because people who do better than you cannot possibly be better than you. Norway could not possibly have a good approach if it weren't for their corrupt polluting ways that they hide from virtuous Americans, right? Unlike American greatness, Norwegians could not possibly survive without destroying the planet while pretending they don't.
"so how green is it really?"
Greener than you, and more respectable.
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Is it greener than me? First of all, I'm Canadian and up until a short while ago I was contributing to carbon tax. I thought it was a good idea and I am sad that they ended it for political reasons... wasn't my decision. Secondly I work from home. Thirdly, one would need to calculate how much oil they sell per EV to make that high rate possible, under the assumption that the oil is being burned by someone somewhere. I don't really consider them 'better' than me, so I have no reason to make them sound w
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> Once again, most of the EVs in Norway are used near the coast where it hardly goes below zero. Also the citizens are basically paid with oil money to put up with an EV (so how green is it really?)
It is true that Norway floats on an ocean of oil which has made them rich. However, taking a look at a charger map of Norway and seeing lots and lots of charging stations all over inland Norway tells me that you are spreading a bunch of FUD when you claim EVs in Norway are only used near the coast. Also, most modern EVs now have batteries with thermal management for optimal charging and battery life, so you are dispensing form a big pile of FUD on that count as well.
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Or maybe they put the infrastructure everywhere because they know that is what is required for the adoption of EVs. Doesn't necessarily mean that many people use them there. I would say more people use them where population is higher, which is on the coast.
Use time (Score:2)
Each nozzle is used by a single person for a few minutes, while a charging station needs to be used for a much longer time. This is an apples to oranges comparison, typical for ideology-motivated messages.
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And the VAST majority of EV cars aren't using ANY of those public chargers because most people charge at home. Yes, my car is often plugged in and charging for 4-5 hours at a time ... because it is in my driveway, plugged into my own Level 2 charger.
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"And the VAST majority of EV cars aren't using ANY of those public chargers because most people charge at home."
Ignoring your mixing of "cars" and "people" in this poorly considered claim, "the VAST majority" use public chargers. Usage by any individual is not a binary, either none or total, it's a mix. Otherwise there would never have been a need for fast chargers to begin with.
The most successful use of an EV is when there is little to no long distance usage. That way (only) slow charging is needed. L
Private chargers (Score:2)
I read TFA, and articles it references, but can't find the definition of "shared" private EV chargers nor a breakdown of how many of those 178k chargers are private. Considering "gas nozzles" are public, comparing them to some unknown number of "shared private" chargers, that potentially only a few people might be allowed to use each, is kind of misleading.
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> I read TFA, and articles it references, but can't find the definition of "shared" private EV chargers nor a breakdown of how many of those 178k chargers are private. Considering "gas nozzles" are public, comparing them to some unknown number of "shared private" chargers, that potentially only a few people might be allowed to use each, is kind of misleading.
I might be misunderstanding your post...
The summary included this detail: "And beyond that public network, there's more than 700,000 Level 2 chargers installed in single-family California homes, according to the California Energy Commission."
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A shared private charger would be one provided by an employer apartment building, hotel or similar. Those are useful to those who have access to them, and reduce the load on public chargers, but that means the general public gets less benefit from them than from public chargers. In that sense it's helpful to know how many of the 178k chargers are private vs public.
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>> I read TFA, and articles it references, but can't find the definition of "shared" private EV chargers nor a breakdown of how many of those 178k chargers are private. Considering "gas nozzles" are public, comparing them to some unknown number of "shared private" chargers, that potentially only a few people might be allowed to use each, is kind of misleading.
> I might be misunderstanding your post... The summary included this detail: "And beyond that public network, there's more than 700,000 Level 2 chargers installed in single-family California homes, according to the California Energy Commission."
In my neck of the woods these 'shared private' EV chargers are usually bought by groups of citizens, like every house in a cul-de-sac, or an entire stairway in an apartment building or something like that and then shared between the contributing residents which works well because most people here don't see what powers your car as an integral part of their political identity. The municipality/government will incentivize this by enabling such operators to charge at residential tariffs rather than the much hig
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They are stating that the "public network" count includes private chargers, but they are shared by more than 1 person in some way. IE a business may have a charging station that can be used by some specific employees (and this is probably the greatest contributor to that "public" count). There might be an apartment building with 2 or 3 units, that has a charger that can only be used by the tenants at that apartment. Or potentially a homeowner has a charger that they share with their immediate neighbor. Tho
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> I read TFA, and articles it references, but can't find the definition of "shared" private EV chargers nor a breakdown of how many of those 178k chargers are private. Considering "gas nozzles" are public, comparing them to some unknown number of "shared private" chargers, that potentially only a few people might be allowed to use each, is kind of misleading.
Level 2 “charger” for EV don’t really exist, it’s all onboard the vehicle. It’s an EVSE, all it does is communicate with the car to be sure the vehicle charging system does not overload the local wiring. It’s basically a tiny communication module that’s incredibly simple and a contactor. Part of the reason they can command such high prices is people don’t know it’s just a switch and a $0.20 computer
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Shared Private EV chargers are ones that can be used by multiple people, but not the general public at large. Think those on private company parking lots and the like.
It is still a bit of an apples-to-oranges though because the usage cases are clearly vastly different, as are the times you need to be connected to the nozzle/charger for in order to top up. If you have an ICE you are highly unlikely to have a nozzle at home, but for all we know all 700,000 of those home chargers stated in TFS are all tha
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"I read TFA, and articles it references, but can't find the definition of "shared" private EV chargers nor a breakdown of how many of those 178k chargers are private."
Because the distinction is not important. The article contrasts "public or shared private EV chargers" with "at-home chargers" so the first category is chargers used by more than end user while the second is the rest. "Private" in this context simply means not accessible to the general public while "shared" means more than one user. If you s
Bullshit numbers (Score:2)
The article plays fast and loose with statistics to show that EVs are on the rise. They spin 75% of the people buying ICE cars as progress. It would help to see abolute numbers. such as "X % of the population owns an electric car" or "there are 0.4 chargers per car". but no, all inflated bullshit numbers with falsified statistics. Way to go!
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How do you know the statistics are falsified? Where do you get the real statistics?
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> The article plays fast and loose with statistics to show that EVs are on the rise. They spin 75% of the people buying ICE cars as progress.
The EV market saw charging 150% more for their solution as “progress” too. Go figure the end result of that was pricing your product right out of 75% of the market. That’s not spin. That’s just simple no-shit math.
Leave the government in charge of deploying EV chargers, and they’ll hook them up about as fast as government taxpayer broadband internet programs have connected houses. Which is to say we’ll run out of fucking oil before that happens.
But most of the cars are still ICE... (Score:1)
...so shouldn't there still be more gas nozzles than chargers?
Re:But most of the cars are still ICE... (Score:4, Insightful)
Only if they get used for comparable durations.
In my experience, filling up an ICE car's fuel tank takes about 5 minutes. An EV fast charger needs 30+ minutes, and a level 2 charger needs multiple hours. From TFS, about 10% of public/shared-private chargers are fast chargers and the other are level 2. If we take 4 hours as a typical level 2 charging time, that means the expected occupancy time for a public/shared-private charger is about 220 minutes -- 44 times as long as for a gasoline nozzle. So if you have 50% ICE and 50% EV, you need about 40 times as many EV chargers as gasoline pumps.
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> you need about 40 times as many EV chargers as gasoline pumps
100% of ICE car owners require a public gas pump. Your conclusion assumes 100% of EV charging will happen at public chargers which is not true.
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There are already privately limited-access chargers in the mix here. Some large fraction of the 40-times-as-many chargers will be privately owned or at people's homes -- but you still need that kind of ratio in order to have similar capacities.
As the fraction of at-home chargers goes up, the 40x ratio will go up by some (tiny) amount because the fraction of fast chargers will decrease. It will probably go up by more because restricted-access chargers are not useful to the general public, so utilization go
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No. It takes longer to charge an EV then it does to fill up an ICE car. The nozzles can service 5-25X more cars then the EV chargers.
This is incorrect (Score:1)
Zero emissions? Are 100% of the chargers hooked up to renewables or do they just run a 30% loss to heat/resistance connection to a CO2-emitting power plant? Also, how many of them work? Also, they're using a relative percentages to misrepresent the number in an estimation.
This misleading bullshit sounds an awful lot like China where when you can't get the results you want, you just lie about it for image.
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Many areas of the state of California ARE zero-emissions, and the entire state has had periods where the only source of power was renewables. We are quickly working towards that being the case all the time, not just intermittently. Even when fossil-fuels are involved, it is natural gas plants that are considered very low carbon emissions, not coal-fired monstrosities.
So you kind of need them (Score:2)
Even with fast charging it takes an hour to get 180 mi. With a gas powered car I can put 180 mi worth of fuel in my vehicle in 5 minutes. So I'm not hanging out at a charger hogging the infrastructure I'm in and out.
And this is purely anecdotal but they seem to break down a lot more often than a gas pump. I'm always hearing the people complaining about broken EV chargers and during winter it becomes a major issue but when I see a broken gas pump that seems extremely unusual to me.
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Very old cars can take an hour to get 180 miles, newer ones with very fast charging can do that in 10 minutes. There is also battery swap which takes under 4 minutes.
Someone will now claim that they need to do 12 hours non-stop at 85 MPH, but I'm not going to even contemplate enabling that kind of recklessness.
Re: So you kind of need them (Score:2)
That's a bit ridiculous, but 8 hours with 2x15 minute breaks and a half hour break is not uncommon.
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That's easily doable in modern, affordable EVs in Europe, such as the new MGS5.
Re: So you kind of need them (Score:2)
Ok cool but am I paying even more for the vehicle for the privilege of doing it or do they cost the same as an average EV? I'm not a big fan of "long range" being an expensive option.
Re: So you kind of need them (Score:2)
Also, how available will the chargers be... Will a 15 minute charge involve waiting for someone charging for 45 minutes? Generally you drive up to a gas pump with no wait.
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That's a bit ridiculous, but 8 hours with 2x15 minute breaks and a half hour break is not uncommon.
Common, reckless and deeply antisocial.
Driving that much with inadequate breaks increases collision rates. Fine I guess if you wrap your car around a tree and it's just you, but if you hit someone else you are making someone else pay for your poor decisions.
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If chargers didn't have to be certified for accurate measure, and be networked, and manage the safety of charging at 800V and 400A, they would not "break down" so often, but one of the basic safety requirements of any device is that any single fault must require failure to a known safe state, and "off" is the safest known safe state.
The same requirements used to exist for gas pumps, but after billions in oil company lobbying, "spilling gas all over the damn place" became an acceptable "known safe state," an
They need more chargers for a basic reason (Score:1)
48% more chargers than gas pumps is not surprising. 5 minutes to fill a gas tank, 30 minutes to get a decent charge. I am surprised the difference is not larger, but CA likely needs more generation capacity to get the numbers up where they need to be.
Only Level 3 Matters (Score:2)
First of all, nobody gives a shit about level 2 chargers, and we should just ignore level 1 completely since they are so slow. They're destination chargers and you should have at least one for every EV on the road. Touting these as viable public charging only causes confusion and distrust among the general public regarding EVs.
Level 3 is what everyone cares about, and that's what needs some level of parity with fuel pumps. Lack of level 3 charging is what leaves people with EVs stranded, and stranded E
Lies, damn statistics, and lies (Score:2)
There are not nearly enough high speed chargers where they are needed for distance travel. The ones that are there don't work half the time, but the system will lie to you about that. You'll find yourself in a long line waiting for the one charger that works, or hunting for something else.
Chicken vs. Egg (Score:3)
This is really what will enable the mass adoption of EVs. Yes, the back-end and power generation needs to keep up, but that is a comparatively straightforward problem compared to getting a large enough network of chargers to cover the last mile problem.
Now if they can get the number of offline or damaged charging points addressed, we'll be cooking.
Re:Chicken vs. Egg (Score:4, Insightful)
The absolute number of chargers vs gas nozzles doesn't matter, you're gonna need *way* more chargers to break even.
What you have to really ask is: for a 10,000 mile trip, how many charger-minutes do you need if your car is EV, versus how many nozzle-minutes do you need if your comparable car is ICE?
A traditional gas station services many cars and trucks quickly, and the cars that run low on the open road are often able to keep driving far enough to find a random gas station with minimal total downtime.
Conversely, electric charging is slow and is not space efficient, since cars have to park during that time. When counting chargers, you also have to discount all the chargers that are privately owned and attached to a house, because they are effectively inaccessible to a random car whose battery is running low on the open road. Private chargers only help the owner's car, and only if the owner is able to drive home whenever required.
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And just when I thought there was nowhere else for you guys to move the goal posts...
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Seriously? I'd call it "aligning the goal posts with reality". Nothing they said was wrong. I wonder what the stats are on numbers of cars serviced in a day for gas pumps and chargers and how they compare.
I would love to see EVs take over the world, but ICEs are entrenched for good reasons. Personally, I'd like to see standardized batteries of common sizes and shapes that can be swapped out for charged ones quickly.
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> And just when I thought there was nowhere else for you guys to move the goal posts...
Not moving the goal posts at all. The article is making an inaccurate comparison.
The purpose of a charger or gas pump is to refill a car with energy.
A single gas pump can fully recharge about 12 cars/hour.
A single level-2 charger can fully recharge one car in 8-10 hours.
Even where there are high-speed electric chargers the charging speed often drops when multiple cars are being charged concurrently. This is not the case with a gas station. Pointing out that these devices have different capabilities is no
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> What you have to really ask is: for a 10,000 mile trip, how many charger-minutes do you need if your car is EV, versus how many nozzle-minutes do you need if your comparable car is ICE?
Why do you think this is relevant to wide-scale adoption of EVs? How many people are taking 10,000 mile trips on the regular? No, for most people, the range of your average EV is ample for a day's use.
Relevance (Score:3)
> Why do you think this is relevant to wide-scale adoption of EVs? How many people are taking 10,000 mile trips on the regular?
It's relevant because while an EV is fine for everyday, about town use most of us do, on ocassion, like to drive to the mountains to go hiking, drive to a neighbouring city to do something or go on a family holiday and we need our vehicle to be able to accommodate that use.
It may not be something we do everyday but it is someting we do several times a year and that's the main reason we did not look at EVs the last time we bought a car. Yes I know it is possible to careful plan a trip around charging sta
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With an EV, it depends how I drive my vehicle. If I drive 50 miles every day for 200 days out of the year and I have a home charger, I will occupy a public charger for approximately 0 minutes. I will spend approximately 0 minutes filling up my car over the course of the year.
If I drive 25 miles every day for 200 days out of the year and take 10 road trips each at 500 miles round trip (with only my home charger at the beginning and end of the round trip) then I will have to find a public charger for ~250 mi
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"Who wants an EV when they can't even drive to the moon, and back?"
Re: Chicken vs. Egg (Score:2)
Strawman.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
> What you have to really ask is: for a 10,000 mile trip, how many charger-minutes do you need if your car is EV, versus how many nozzle-minutes do you need if your comparable car is ICE?
Ignoring the "10,000 mile trip" silliness, that's not a relevant question. On long trips, the limiting factor is biological, not fuel. If you charge while you eat, etc., what you find is that you very rarely end up waiting for the car, at all. If anything, I think I spend less time "fueling" my EV than I do my ICEV, because while pumping gas only takes a few minutes, it's a few minutes you can't do anything else. Well, I guess some people start the pump then walk into the store for snacks or bathroom whi
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Anecdotal reports indicate that typical recharging any 'long-range' EV after a trip segment of 200 miles or so, about 4 hours, will usually take between 3 and 4 meal-hours.
Nope, the assertion that recharging your EV is nowhere as efficient, or swift, as refueling your petrol vehicle, is is true. Planning to stop for a meal when you recharge your EV is to plan on a break, a meal, an extended loiter wherever you are, and another break since time has elapsed since you initially stopped.
My last trip from Arizon
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No one charges to 100% on a road trip unless they really have to due to badly spaced chargers. That 80-100% charge will take you longer than going from 10-80%. Also, Tesla is actually a little behind the times with their charging speeds. My car, for example, has an 800V battery and can accept up to 350kW due to the reduced current requirement for a charge time of under 20m for 20-80% in good conditions. So you are way better off stopping for 20m to charge every 200mi, than stopping for an hour every 300
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> Ignoring the "10,000 mile trip" silliness, that's not a relevant question. On long trips, the limiting factor is biological, not fuel. If you charge while you eat, etc., what you find is that you very rarely end up waiting for the car, at all. If anything, I think I spend less time "fueling" my EV than I do my ICEV, because while pumping gas only takes a few minutes, it's a few minutes you can't do anything else. Well, I guess some people start the pump then walk into the store for snacks or bathroom while it's pumping but that seems pretty irresponsible.
I've seen some EV charging stations around me and none of them have amenities that allow for addressing biological needs. Maybe I'm seeing charging spots that are out of the norm but I've seen plenty of complaints online about shitty experiences at public EV chargers. One example that stuck in my mind was a guy talking about plugging in his EV to charge then having to take a somewhat dangerous path to a Starbucks or something for a coffee and snack. It made me wonder just how difficult it would have been
Re: (Score:2)
Been roadtripping in a Tesla since [1]getting my Model 3 in 2018 [x.com]. Back then the Superchargers maxed out at 120 kW and during roadtrips to Wisconsin (from Houston) some of the stops would require the slow* 100% charge to reach the next Supercharger. On occasion I'd be prompted to drive slower to extended range, such as between Little Rock Arkansas and Miner Missouri ( [2]example of that prompt [x.com] from a 2019 trip).
Now the newer (2019+) [3]V3 Superchargers [tesla.com] max out a 250 kW, plus those older 120 chargers were software up
[1] https://x.com/SpiceWare/status/1001906063304806401
[2] https://x.com/SpiceWare/status/1303073699847864321
[3] https://www.tesla.com/blog/introducing-v3-Supercharging
Re: (Score:2)
Everything you said is true for an individual, but misses the point the parent was making regarding the total number of charging stations needed.
If an EV needs to charge 20 minutes every 200 miles, and an ICE vehicle needs to pump gas for 5 minutes every 200 miles, then you will need 4 times the number of public level 3 chargers as gas pumps to serve the same number of cars. In fact if roadtripping EVs are mostly charging at normal meal breaks, then you will need even more chargers, since use will be more c
Re: (Score:2)
> The absolute number of chargers vs gas nozzles doesn't matter, you're gonna need *way* more chargers to break even.
> What you have to really ask is: for a 10,000 mile trip, how many charger-minutes do you need if your car is EV, versus how many nozzle-minutes do you need if your comparable car is ICE?
> A traditional gas station services many cars and trucks quickly, and the cars that run low on the open road are often able to keep driving far enough to find a random gas station with minimal total downtime.
> Conversely, electric charging is slow and is not space efficient, since cars have to park during that time. When counting chargers, you also have to discount all the chargers that are privately owned and attached to a house, because they are effectively inaccessible to a random car whose battery is running low on the open road. Private chargers only help the owner's car, and only if the owner is able to drive home whenever required.
This is true. Gas nozzles are overprovisioned (in most cases except in wilderness areas), while even with more electric public chargers, the chargers are underprovisioned. The only reason the EV charging system sort of works is the at-home chargers combined with the relatively small number of EVs. If all cars were EVs, the charging system would fail, both in cities and on highways.
The problem is charging time. Until charging times equal gas fueling times, the queuing models show that lines will be long.
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> BYD says their new 1 MW charger can add 250 miles in 5 minutes. Imagine a Costco charging station with many such chargers. The electric feed into that charging station would be the equivalent of a data center, and these stations would need to be as ubiquitous as today's gas stations. We're already fretting about the electricity needs of data centers, even though that problem pales in comparison to the EV. However, to be fair, data centers need their power 24/7, while EV charger usage is spiky during peak hours. Nonetheless, because of that spikiness, the chargers need to be overprovisioned.
I can recall watching a video in high school about hydrogen as a fuel. (And high school for me was more years ago than I care to admit.) In the video there was a point about how there would be a need to increase the number of wires to cities to make up for the added electricity draw to produce the hydrogen, as opposed to the pipes already in place for fossil fuels. Electric cars would produce a similar concern.
As I recall (and I might be recalling incorrectly) there was a push by the Biden administration
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> for a 10,000 mile trip, how many charger-minutes do you need if your car is EV, versus how many nozzle-minutes do you need if your comparable car is ICE?
Already missed the point. The majority of people filling their gas cars are doing so because in many small trips has resulted in their vehicle being empty and needing to be filled. That is a problem that is largely non-existent for EVs, especially in America which has an incredibly high suburban living rate with off-street parking.
As a comparison I used to refill my car one a week.
Now I use a public charger only when I take those "10,000 mile trips", which was twice last year. I still drive the same distanc
Re: Chicken vs. Egg (Score:2)
You may have all the time in the world to spend it lollygagging around charging stations, but it'd like to be the one getting to where I want to go as quickly as possible. I don't get very much vacation time.
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> What you have to really ask is: for a 10,000 mile trip, how many charger-minutes do you need if your car is EV, versus how many nozzle-minutes do you need if your comparable car is ICE?
You won't need a 10,000 mile trip to make your case. I can recall having to drive a 2-1/2 ton truck halfway across a Midwestern state, and making a 15 minute stop for diesel fuel and to inhale a sandwich. I won't say which state I was driving across as I prefer to keep where I live ambiguous but pick a state in the Midwest USA, cut the distance across it in half, and you'll have a good idea on how far I had to drive and how much time I needed for a refueling stop to get there.
> A traditional gas station services many cars and trucks quickly, and the cars that run low on the open road are often able to keep driving far enough to find a random gas station with minimal total downtime.
That reminds me of another ex
Driving from Alaska to Brazil [Re:Chicken vs. Egg] (Score:3)
> The absolute number of chargers vs gas nozzles doesn't matter, you're gonna need *way* more chargers to break even.
No you don't. Most people with EVs charge them overnight; they don't use public chargers at all on a day to day basis. All people with gasoline cars, on the other hand, fuel them at public fueling stations ("gas stations").
> What you have to really ask is: for a 10,000 mile trip,
The number of people who take 10,000 mile trips is so tiny that it is completely negligible. The average in the US is 40 miles per day.
> ...
> When counting chargers, you also have to discount all the chargers that are privately owned and attached to a house,
publicly accessible chargers.
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EV charging is far more space efficient. You can fit 60 EV chargers on the footprint of a typical 6 nozzle gas station. Not to mention it is a far simpler construction project since it doesn't involve putting large toxic fuel tanks in the ground that will poison that real estate for many years after it is taken out of commission.
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On the other hand you also get to subtract out all the cars that get to charge at home or while parked at a shared L2 charger. While gasoline pumps need to be used by everyone who drives an ICE to refuel, fast chargers are only needed by those on road trips who are driving outside their normal range.
This means you don't need to replace each gas pump with 4-5 DC fast chargers as would be suggested by just taking the ration of EV charge time to ICE refuel time would suggest. You just need to add enough to s
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> This is really what will enable the mass adoption of EVs. Yes, the back-end and power generation needs to keep up, but that is a comparatively straightforward problem compared to getting a large enough network of chargers to cover the last mile problem.
> Now if they can get the number of offline or damaged charging points addressed, we'll be cooking.
True, how quickly the EV exterminates ICE is mostly a question of how quickly infrastructure expands. In Europe and China this is just a matter of planning and funding, same probably in California, parts of the US East Coast and other 'blue' regions of the US, although from what I understand the planning part can be lengthy in California. In large portions of Red America they'll likely cling onto ICE and oil but that just gives us a nice retro theme park to visit where we can see live demonstrations of stin
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Aside from CA....most of the US just isn't that interested in EVs at this time.
Hybrids garner a bit more attention than EVs...
But for the most part I don't see widespread adoption in the US of EVs.
For many, it just isn't practical....I mean, if charing at home isn't an option for you, an EV is a real PITA. And these days....if you're driving the most popular and widespread EV on the market in the US....you stand a chance of some looney burning your car or threating you with violence while you're driving
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> And these days....if you're driving the most popular and widespread EV on the market in the US....you stand a chance of some looney burning your car or threating you with violence while you're driving it.
Yeah Elon sure burned his base. You used to see smug look on all the Tesla drivers. Now they try to avoid eye contact lol
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Sort of. Availability certainly needs to be there, but charging speed is the major hold up. I know improvements have been made but you're still looking at 30 minutes or so to get a useable charge on an EV. A gas vehicle can go from empty to full in about 3 minutes.
That's not only a matter of convenience for the consumer, but also each pump has a faster turnover time before its ready to serve another customer (eg in 30 minutes an electrical charger can serve 1 customer whereas a gas pump can serve about 1
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It depends. Assuming most people who drive an EV have access to some kind of asynchronous L2 charging - either at home, at work, shared charger in their apartment complex, or while parked and shopping, then the only people who need fast chargers are those who are on a long trip and need to recharge on the go. As long as the percentage of those people on the highway is only 10%, you can get away with replacing gas pumps 1:1 with DC fast chargers despite the 10x worse throughput, because there will be far f