Brazil Ended Daylight Saving Time. But It Might Bring It Back (msn.com)
- Reference: 0175826097
- News link: https://yro.slashdot.org/story/25/01/04/0530245/brazil-ended-daylight-saving-time-but-it-might-bring-it-back
- Source link: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/ar-AA1wU05A
And then "After several energy emergencies, and with the prospect of more to come as the effects of climate change intensify, the vanquished daylight saving time is suddenly looking a whole lot better than it once did to some in the Brazilian government."
> Authorities almost mandated the return of daylight saving — a portion of the calendar when clocks are turned forward to maximize seasonal daylight — late last year to conserve energy amid a historic drought that had threatened hydroelectric power generation and drove up light bills. The government is already laying the political groundwork to restore it as soon as this year...
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> Latin America's largest country is a global leader in green energy. An astounding 93 percent of its electricity comes from renewable sources, [3]according to Brazil's Electric Energy Commercialization Chamber, the majority of which is hydropower. This strength, however, has also left it vulnerable to global warming. As temperatures have warmed and punishing droughts have grown more frequent, the country's water reserves have dropped precariously low at times, jeopardizing its primary source of energy. In 2021, an extended drought depleted the country's water stores, driving up light bills by an estimated 20 percent, [4]according to the National Chamber of Electric Energy. Then came last year's drought, the worst in 70 years, and government officials started to look more seriously at daylight saving.
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> Alexandre Silveira [Brazil's mining and energy minister] [5]said that month that the decision to eliminate daylight saving had been extravagance Brazil could scarcely afford. "It was massively irresponsible, without any basis in science," the energy official said. "We're living in a period of denial in Brazil in all aspects." José Sidnei Colombo Martini, an electrical engineer at the University of São Paulo, told The Washington Post that decision to end daylight saving amounted to a "national bet on whether it is going to rain." And the bet is expected to become increasingly risky as the years pass. "Brazil has always had a massive amount of available water compared to other countries — storing 12 percent of the planet's surface — but this is being altered," said Suely Araújo, public policy coordinator at the Climate Observatory. Estimates show "we could have a 40 percent reduction in our water availability in Brazil's principal hydro regions by 2040. Brazil has entered a new reality... "
Should other countries end Daylight Saving Time? "People and governments all over the world are having the same debate," the article points out, "often coming to conflicting conclusions."
> Countries including [6]Azerbaijan , [7]Mexico and [8]Samoa have done away with daylight saving time. Meanwhile, [9]Jordan , [10]Namibia and [11]Turkey have gone the opposite direction, opting for permanent daylight saving time. And Russia, discovering there's no way to tell time that pleases everyone, first tried permanent daylight saving time, then scuttled it.
[1] https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/ar-AA1wU05A
[2] https://datafolha.folha.uol.com.br/avaliacao-de-governo/2024/10/40-reprovam-o-desempenho-do-governo-lula-pt-na-area-ambiental.shtml
[3] https://g1.globo.com/economia/noticia/2024/02/02/energia-limpa-brasil-bate-recorde-com-93percent-da-energia-gerada-em-2023-vindo-de-fontes-renovaveis-diz-ccee.ghtml
[4] https://www.gnpw.com.br/crise-energetica/crise-energetica-no-brasil-um-desafio-que-persiste-ate-2025/
[5] https://agenciabrasil.ebc.com.br/economia/noticia/2024-09/ons-recomenda-que-governo-volte-adotar-o-horario-de-verao
[6] https://time.is/time_zone_news/azerbaijan_cancels_daylight_saving_time
[7] https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2024/03/08/daylight-saving-time-debate-mexico-end/?itid=lk_inline_manual_12
[8] https://www.timeanddate.com/news/time/samoa-removes-dst.html
[9] https://www.thenationalnews.com/mena/2022/10/05/jordan-scraps-clocks-moving-to-winter-time/
[10] http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2018-04/03/c_137086167.htm
[11] https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/pros-cons-turkeys-permanent-daylight-saving-time-yi%C4%9Fit-karata%C5%9F-bnkxf/
Hyperbole much? (Score:5, Insightful)
> by 8 a.m., it feels like high noon
I'm pretty sure that Daylight Saving Time will only shift that to happen at 9 a.m., and that it is not really much more sensible to complain about 9 a.m. feeling like "high noon" than 8 a.m.
Re: Hyperbole much? (Score:2)
No. The circadian rhythm of the human body in Summer compared to Winter, and the difference is stronger for people living farther from the equator. For instance, people sleep shorter in the Summer time. If your daily routine does not adapt, e.g. not rising earlier in during the Summer, the human body tries to force the adaption by sending timing signals according to the experienced season. As in winter, the time between sunrise and noon is shorter, and you get up according to your winter rhythm, the body ex
Re: (Score:2)
But not having to start the day at 4am because the damn roosters crow, and all the farm animals got their start means not having to wake up at 3am. Besides, the math on energy savings by shifting it 1hr in the summer has been established for a very very long time. When the fall time shift went from the 2nd Sunday in October to the first Sunday in November, it was measured in millions of barrels of oil of savings for just the US alone. Thats just 14 hours. 14 hours of extended day saved millions of barrels o
Re: (Score:2)
> But not having to start the day at 4am because the damn roosters crow, and all the farm animals got their start means not having to wake up at 3am.
Then ... maybe TFA should use that as an argument? But I don't think it would be very convincing: a very small percentage of people are livestock farmers, many of them will be able to just go to bed earlier, and there are adverse effects from changing the timing of lights.
> Besides, the math on energy savings by shifting it 1hr in the summer has been established for a very very long time. When the fall time shift went from the 2nd Sunday in October to the first Sunday in November, it was measured in millions of barrels of oil of savings for just the US alone.
That doesn't seem to be true. [1]https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/arti... [mcgill.ca] points or that research is very mixed on the net effects of DST. For example, it says:
> A 2008 literature review found that simple estimates find a roughly 0.5% decrease in energy because of residential lighting reductions. However, it concludes that if gasoline consumption is considered, the energy-saving effects of DST disappear.
It also points out why some farmers would like "Standard Time" during summer, and that
[1] https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/history-environment-did-you-know/does-daylight-savings-time-actually-save-energy
Re: (Score:2)
I don't get why this is so hard for people. If YOU prefer to wake up and hour early or later depending on the time year to go with the daylight, then DO SO YOUSELF. Change your alarm clock setting don't force the entire world to go back and forth hour. We no longer need to change the time for energy savings, electronics need no longer be set to turn off base on a hardcoded time of day, you can set it to turn on/off on different times throughout the year, or even based on if its bright outside or not te
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> I don't get why this is so hard for people. If YOU prefer to wake up and hour early or later depending on the time year to go with the daylight, then DO SO YOUSELF.
You don't get it because you are completely dismissing the whole point of a common clock: society agreeing on what happens when.
You cannot always decide to just show up 1 hour earlier or later, e.g. if you have a job that require you to be present at a specific opening hour and the shop decides to keep the opening hour at 8 AM after the time change.
Also note that in some places opening hours might be regulated, meaning that even the shop owner might not be allowed to open 1 hour earlier or close 1 hour late
Making everyone happy (Score:3)
> "And Russia, discovering there's no way to tell time that pleases everyone"
This is the key takeaway. Very few of us have experienced always Standard [winter] Time or always Daylight Saving [summer] Time. The grass is always greener on some other side.
I hate time changes, so I would support ANY plan to stop it. Personally, I wish we were on permanent DST. Even with time changes, it is still dark when I go to work in the winter, but it is often dark when I get home. I would rather have more useful daylight near the end of the day in winter. Far more productive and less depressing.
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You never travel? Try doing a few WestPac’s and talk about time changes. Especially crossing the IDL. Clocks move forward 23hrs going westward. Think rolling clocks back an hour is weird; try losing an entire day.
A Plan to Avoid DST (Score:2)
> I hate time changes, so I would support ANY plan to stop it.
Here's your plan then: move to a country near the equator where there is no need for DST because the daylight remains roughly constant throughout the year and so there is literally no need for DST.
Re: (Score:2)
Hence the article.
Much of the their country lives between the Tropic of Capricorn and the Equator and some still want it.
Re: (Score:3)
I emigrated to Canada from a country that did not use DST. At first, I thought people were joking about changing clocks. I hate the twice-yearly change. Standard Time all year around is best, and that's what [1]sleep experts recommend [ontariotechu.ca].
[1] https://news.ontariotechu.ca/archives/2022/11/daylight-saving-time-vs-standard-time-should-we-stick-with-one-permanently.php
Solution (Score:2)
Set up quarter hour time zones rather than full hour. This will reduce the stress felt at the edges of timezones.
Brazil? (Score:2)
Brazil is in the tropics, it has no need to change the clocks for winter.
Re: (Score:3)
There's parts of Brazil that is as far to the south as Austin, Texas is to the north. I can assure you that Austin experiences seasonal changes. Austin might not see as dramatic of a seasonal change as cities further north, such as perhaps Chicago, but if DST makes sense for Texas then it makes sense for Brazil.
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DST doesn't make sense for Texas, though. Because DST doesn't make sense for anywhere.
Brazil is on the Equator, how did that even work? (Score:2)
Summer time makes sense where you have a summer, not around Equator, so you'd need to have places that do observe summer time and places that don't based on latitude (heck, maybe even some that do it on reverse being on the other hemisphere). That is beside having multiple time zones due to the longitude. How did this even work in the past?
Re: (Score:2)
Or we can just use UTC. Organizations can set their own hours however they want. It seems to work for the world's militaries and aeronautics. Oh, and it seems to work for (many) people using UNIX variants too. It's absolutely insane to screw with a constant(*) like time and conflate it with geography. (* - Yes, someone is going to make a relativity crack.)
Living in Arizona. Or North Carolina. Or Maine. (Score:2)
Living in Arizona (non-Navajo territory) I revel in the lack of Daylight Savings Time. Early sunset and late sunrise in the winter is not an issue for me, and hardly anyone else. Later summer nights and morning walks in the sun only impact me when it won't go below 90F in the night, well welcome to the desert.
But spending time in North Carolina taught me about the time zone impact. NC being a bit more west than Maine, my home at the time, sunrise was noticeably later. And it seemed that people started late
Science? (Score:2)
I thought there was scientific evidence that the switch to DST and back is NOT capable of saving significant amounts of energy – isn't that one of the most cited reasons for its abolition, beside what it does to people?
Re: (Score:2)
No, the scientific consensus about it is that it is inconclusive (aka some studies shows a benefit while others not). That said one meta-analysis of 44 studies from various countries showed a 0.34% decrease in energy consumption thanks to DST.
DST is not necessary (Score:1)
It is unnecessary to move time around for you to move around daylight, you can just wake uo earlier. Just like it is unnecessary to devalue your own currency to sell more of your product, you can just lower prices.
4:30 sunrise is early (Score:2)
âoeBut "In the heavily populated southeast, the sky begins to brighten at the unconscionable hour of 4:30 a.m. during the summer, and by 8 a.m., it feels like high noon..âoe
just switch the southeast to a different timezone, set the clocks back an hour so in the summer the sun comes up at 5:30, it dont mean you have to go back to seasonally changing the clocks again.
Re: (Score:2)
"at the unconscionable hour of 4:30 a.m."
Maybe "at the, IMHO, unconscionable hour of 4:30 a.m."
Conserving energy? How? (Score:2)
> Authorities almost mandated the return of daylight saving — a portion of the calendar when clocks are turned forward to maximize seasonal daylight — late last year to conserve energy amid a historic drought that had threatened hydroelectric power generation and drove up light bills.
DST doesn't change the number of daylight hours, it only shifts them earlier by one hour. How is that shift supposed to "save" energy?
In the US, lighting accounts for only about 4% of electricity usage. Air conditioning, over 50%, refrigeration, water heating, and appliances take the rest. Of those, the only one that would be affected by DST is some of the lighting.
I realize that Brazil isn't as air-conditioned as the US, but it's quickly gaining ground. The point is, electricity use for lighting is a small
Daylight does not change (Score:1)
Set 12PM to be when the sun is roughly at its apex in the sky, and quit fucking around.
A novel idea (Score:2)
I have a novel idea. In fact, it's a choice between two different schemes, but they boil down to the same thing. Deal wit hthe Earth's seasonal variations like people have done since prehistory. The alternative is to just use UTC on everything and figure things out that way.
Brazil is close to the equator, so WTF? (Score:2)
Brazil is close to the equator. Even at the furthest tip from the equator, the latitude is about 33.66 degrees South, so sunrise and sunset times there only vary over a total of about two hours. And for parts of Brazil closer to the equator, the variation is even less than this. In Sao Paulo, the variation is only about 90 minutes total.
Why don't they just stick to standard time?
Noon (Score:2)
Noon is the hour closest to when the sun is highest in the sky. Start there.
Having The State force everybody to make their clocks lie is the most hamfisted way to deal with changing seasons.
When I need to go to a store I look online to see what their hours are today. Y'all, Home Depot has hours that change with the seasons so unless you are going around lunchtime don't assume anything. I learned the hard way that they aren't open at 6am in July. At least they weren't fifteen years ago. I would check today
Permanent DST Not Possible (Score:2)
Try it, and in 10 years, schools, then businesses, will have shifted their operating times to preclude morning darkness for commuters for work or school, with commensurate time taken out of the evening, again.
What results is getting home from work with darkness just an hour or two later, or not if you have a long commute. For long commutes, you arrive home in the dark. Big disadvantage that any outdoor work or play gets moved to the weekend where you could otherwise have done some other work or play. Th
Same in the U.S. (Score:3, Insightful)
Those who fail to remember history are doomed to repeat it.
In 1973 President Richard Nixon signed a law putting the U.S. on permanent (year-round) "Daylight Saving Time". It was repealed one year later because there were so many complaints. Since then a few states have tried permanent DST and the result has been the same.
Every year, people complain about switching to/from DST. And every time permanent DST is implemented they complain about THAT.
People are stupid and need to STFU.
Examples of Global Agreement. (Score:1)
> Those who fail to remember history are doomed to repeat it. In 1973 President Richard Nixon signed a law putting the U.S. on permanent (year-round) "Daylight Saving Time". It was repealed one year later because there were so many complaints. Since then a few states have tried permanent DST and the result has been the same. Every year, people complain about switching to/from DST. And every time permanent DST is implemented they complain about THAT. People are stupid and need to STFU.
An entire planet decided long ago and agreed on a global scale that it is indeed the year 2025. Regardless of who your God is.
How many military forces on Earth recognize Greenwich, England as THE time zone to synchronize global operations to? You think they don’t get the job done regardless of where the sun is in the sky?
I wonder how many people living in Alaska during the (perpetual daylight) summer are laughing at Brazil’s early daytime complaint. I wonder how many clickbait bullshit compl
Re: (Score:1, Offtopic)
> I wonder how many people living in Alaska during the (perpetual daylight) summer are laughing at Brazilâ(TM)s early daytime complaint.
It's only inside the Arctic Circle that there is 24 hours of daylight in the summer. Even so in the parts of Alaska outside of the Arctic Circle there's summers where the sun rises at 3AM and sets at 9PM, then in the winter it's sunrise at 9AM with sunset at 3PM. Well, I guess that isn't quite right because Alaska observes DST, so it's sunrise at 8AM with sunset at 2PM? It's something like that. How is that an improvement?
> An entire planet decided long ago and agreed on a global scale that it is indeed the year 2025. Regardless of who your God is.
What gets people tied up in knots is if this is 2025 AD or 2025 CE . I'm with Dr.
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Oh I wish I had mod points right now. +1
Re: (Score:2)
> Even so in the parts of Alaska outside of the Arctic Circle there's summers where the sun rises at 3AM and sets at 9PM, then in the winter it's sunrise at 9AM with sunset at 3PM.
In Fairbanks at the winter solstice the sun rises at 10:58 and sets at about 14:40.
At the summer solstice it's 02:57 and 00:47. Even though the sun officially sets year round it never really gets dark between mid April and mid August because the night periods never leave the twilight stage.
No need for DST in the Tropics (Score:2)
> I wonder how many people living in Alaska during the (perpetual daylight) summer are laughing at Brazil’s early daytime complaint.
I do not live in Alaska but Canada at a latitude only a little below Alaska and frankly I am left wondering why on Earth Brazill would want DST at all because it is on the equator and almost all of the country is in the tropics. Daylight savings times is only needed in northern and southern latitudes to deal with the significant changes in daylight between the seasons - currently here sunrise is around 8am and sunset about 4pm. In the summer, with DST, it is dark only from ~10pm to 6am but without DST that
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
States tried a year-round daylight saving time? I recall this being illegal.
Perhaps I'm mistaken but I remember reading somewhere that states had the option to choose either year-round standard time or follow the federal daylight saving time schedule. I'm guessing this is to prevent any time zone border difference to exceed one hour. If a state in one time zone chose permanent standard time, and the neighboring state chose permanent daylight saving time, then crossing that border always means a two hour
Re: (Score:2)
I suspect you misremember. For example, Arizona's choice works only because they're on the west side of their otherwise-assigned time zone -- an "always Standard Time" state on the east side oof a time zone would be two hours earlier than their neighbors to the east during summer.
Re: (Score:2)
> I suspect you misremember. For example, Arizona's choice works only because they're on the west side of their otherwise-assigned time zone -- an "always Standard Time" state on the east side oof a time zone would be two hours earlier than their neighbors to the east during summer.
That makes sense but then with the law on choosing only DST or standard time this two hour difference exists only for the summer months than through the entire year. Allow states to choose permanent DST as well as permanent standard time, on top of being on a time zone border then could this not create a year round three hour time difference on a border? Maybe not, I haven't had enough coffee yet to math this early in the morning.
Whatever the case it seems clear to me that the federal government wanted to
Re: (Score:2)
> "Perhaps I'm mistaken but I remember reading somewhere that states had the option to choose either year-round standard time or follow the federal daylight saving time schedule"
You are correct. Currently in the USA, States can choose to follow time changes twice a year (honor DST) or to stay on Standard Time year round. There is no option to stay on DST year-round.
There was an effort, several times, primarily led by Florida (and supported by other States) to try and force standardization on ST with no
Re: (Score:1)
> Every year, people complain about switching to/from DST. And every time permanent DST is implemented they complain about THAT.
You're ignoring the obvious and probably most popular solution, namely doing away with it altogether.
Re: (Score:3)
> "Those who fail to remember history are doomed to repeat it. " [...] " People are stupid and need to STFU."
Remembering and experiencing things are different, and things change.
> "Every year, people complain about switching to/from DST. And every time permanent DST is implemented they complain about THAT."
The *only* time that has been "implemented" in modern American history was in 1972 for two years. I am guessing 90+% of those on Slashdot were not even alive then or were so young, they wouldn't reme
Re: (Score:1)
There is another way, which seems to gain traction now and then around Massachusetts. To wit—it would be comparatively simple to put New England on year round Atlantic Time. Compact area, and a north-south border with the rest of the country.