Europeans 'Less Hard-Working' Than Americans, Says Norway Oil Fund Boss (ft.com)
- Reference: 0173648614
- News link: https://news.slashdot.org/story/24/04/26/1543214/europeans-less-hard-working-than-americans-says-norway-oil-fund-boss
- Source link: https://www.ft.com/content/58fe78bb-1077-4d32-b048-7d69f9d18809
> Nicolai Tangen, chief executive of the $1.6tn fund, told the Financial Times it was "worrisome" that American companies [1]were outpacing their European rivals
[2]non paywalled link
on innovation and technology, leading to vast outperformance of US shares in the past decade. "There's a mindset issue in terms of acceptance of mistakes and risks. You go bust in America, you get another chance. In Europe, you're dead," he said, adding that there was also a difference in "the general level of ambition. We are not very ambitious. I should be careful about talking about work-life balance, but the Americans just work harder.">
> His views are significant as the oil fund is one of the largest single investors in the world, owning on average 1.5 per cent of every listed company globally and 2.5 per cent of every European equity. Its US holdings have increased in the past decade while its European ones have declined. US shares account for almost half of all its equities compared with 32 per cent in 2013. The leading European country -- the UK -- represented 15 per cent of its equity portfolio a decade ago but just 6 per cent last year.
[1] https://www.ft.com/content/58fe78bb-1077-4d32-b048-7d69f9d18809
[2] https://sherwood.news/world/nicolai-tangen-says-americans-just-work-harder/
except.. (Score:3)
Well,yeah, if $$$$ is your only criterion. Some of us value time off, lower stress, comfortable retirement, etc. over stock prices
Re: (Score:3)
> Well,yeah, if $$$$ is your only criterion. Some of us value time off, lower stress, comfortable retirement, etc. over stock prices
Funny, I found that as I got more $$$ over time, I had lower stress, funded my retirement....and could afford time off somewhere nice.
I could also afford a nice single family home where I didn't share walls with neighbors, and had a nice back yard for my large offset wood burning smoker (BBQ is a big hobby of mine)....my ceramic grill....etc.
I like that with $$ I can fund all
I find this completely believable. (Score:2)
Also, I'm jealous.
work-life balance (Score:2)
> I should be careful about talking about work-life balance, but ...
Be proud that an IT guy tells you: Get A Life.
That's a good thing. Seriously. Think about it! (Score:2, Insightful)
You could rewrite this headline as "Americans less hard working than the Chinese."
Do you as an American really want to work 100 hours a week, 7 days a week, and live on the company campus? No! We as Americans have decided that's a terrible existence and we want more leisure time to spend with out friends and family.
Europe has decided its even more important to them.
We should be working as a civilization to build the world of Star Trek, not a dystopia where we all work harder. For the religious we should
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
The European lifestyle of the last 50 years is not sustainable. Their retirement benefits were enabled by population growth, [1]which has ended [macrotrends.net].
So, something's gotta give. Could be any of the following:
Massive leaps in technology. (Mostly from America and it's 'horrible' work culture by the way).
Decreased standard of living - consuming less, retiring older. And maybe being less materialistic is fine, that's a value judgment
Mass immigration. Of course what changes that might have on the economy and lit
[1] https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/countries/eur/europe/population
Re: (Score:2)
> The 40 hour, 5 day work week is a totally arbitrary number made up long before you were born. Its time for that to change, and in the downward direction.
It took strikes and actual deaths to arrive at those numbers.
Re: That's a good thing. Seriously. Think about it (Score:2)
We already got 3d printers, and lab grown chicken, and beef. Just need lamb, fish, ice cream, and a way to add/remove subatomic particles to atoms, in order to be able to produce any material needed for whatever products needs to be printed out of thin air. Air is full of atoms anyway.
Mix and match (Score:4, Funny)
I liked working for an American unit of a German company because my boss was usually on vacation.
Cuts both ways though (Score:2)
> "You go bust in America, you get another chance. In Europe, you're dead,"
This may be true but at the same time in America it's sometimes too easy for people who went bust, deserved to go bust and who every sign of learning no lessons going bust once again to get way too many chances. How many tech startup failures have their people actually fail upwards? Far too many in my opinion.
Also it wasn't until 2009 (and is sometimes till true today) that "going bust" means you are one uninsured illness from being literally dead.
He is right in a certain broad sense though. So many of th
Multimillionaire complains ... (Score:5, Insightful)
Multimillionaire complains that he and other capitalists can't exploit everyone the same way that they can exploit Americans.
Despite self-delusion about "land of the free", freedom only belongs to the rich. Sure, slavery was abolished, but if you're too scared to leave your job or say "no" because you'll lose your house or healthcare? Is that freedom?
And its not like the American firms freely share the bounty of the reduced worker protections. Bonuses are a thing of the past and pay rises are a unicorn. No, bonuses are reserved for the "Upper Elite" and of course, Shareholders (as dividends or higher share prices).
So why not chill out, relax a bit? And say "Fuck it" once or twice. Or perhaps "Fuck you" to someone that needs it. You'll live longer and be happier for it.
Re: Multimillionaire complains ... (Score:2)
Slavery was not abolished at all. Section 1 of the 13th Amendment reads,
> Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States
Re: (Score:2)
There needs to be a way for the average American to become a shareholder so they can benefit from the business too.
There is. It's called buying stock in a company. No one says you have to buy 100 shares of a company in one shot. You can buy 1 or 2 each month and make sure to reinvest any dividends.
Re: (Score:2)
Most companies have employee share purchase programs where you get the shares and a steep discount.
Re: (Score:3)
You're assuming people have enough free cash to buy stocks. Greedflation is killing the middle class.
Re: (Score:2)
If you can afford to pay for those crappy, plastic nails or your Friday night beerfest, you can afford to buy stocks. It's all about priorities and personal responsibility
"Thanks, Americans!" (Score:2)
Sure, Americans pay taxes and inflated costs of goods to provide military security for Europe, drug development, technology development, etc. so they have more money for healthcare, arts, and leisure.
Everybody should need to work less as technology and productivity increases while maintaining the same standard of living, but nooooo, we can't have nice things.
Materialism plays a small part but GenZ has correctly realized that they can never live as well as their grandparents under this regime.
Boomers are hap
Re: (Score:2)
> I stopped buying my $5 daily Starbucks drink three years ago. I saved $5475. That will certainly help with the 20% down payment on a $500k "starter" home...
I'll sell you my house right now for only $275K.
5 minutes from downtown Pittsburgh. Built in 1913. 3 bedrooms, 2 1/4 bathrooms. 10,000 sf lot. Garage. Basement. Brand new roof (2023). Dedicated laundry room (basement). Security room (basement). Home gym with 3/4 bathroom (basement). Dedicated home office (converted front porch). Spacious covered deck (really nice, it makes the house) with stairs to yard. Large (maybe 15x15) shed in yard (good for workshop, etc.). I've been here since 2013 and have really
Translation (Score:2)
> "the general level of ambition. We are not very ambitious. I should be careful about talking about work-life balance, but the Americans just work harder." His views are significant as the oil fund is one of the largest single investors in the world, owning on average 1.5 per cent of every listed company globally and 2.5 per cent of every European equity. Its US holdings have increased in the past decade while its European ones have declined.
Translation: "Wahhhh!!! I want my EU investments to make better returns! Wahhhh!"
Clearly he's looking to be the next [1]Walmart-type asshole. [workdaymagazine.org]
[1] https://workdaymagazine.org/court-slams-walmarts-use-of-dead-peasant-insurance/
anecdote (Score:2)
Hardly proof of anything, but my experience with working with Europeans is that they tend to be very respectful of people's time and very productive. They produce quality outcomes with little wasted effort and woe betide anyone who tries to contact M. Hulot on his holiday.
Office Space (Score:2)
It's a problem of motivation, all right? Now if I work my ass off and Initech ships a few extra units, I don't see another dime, so where's the motivation?
Maybe they prefer it that way (Score:2)
...and the hardcore people who dislike all of the roadblocks to innovation move somewhere else
And in other news.... (Score:4, Funny)
"Europeans generally happier than Americans, studies show"
Re: (Score:2)
Those are not universal wants, you know.
Those are the product of a specific culture. Namely, "the American dream".
Yes. Because we paper over things less here (Score:3, Insightful)
and consequently there is a greater awareness that if you slack off in life, you may find yourself in a very uncomfortable situation very quickly.
The welfare state hides this from you. It promises to have your back if you fall, but implicit in that promise is that the welfare state will also have your back if you don't bother to try in the first place.
Yes, it is more cruel in its own way. But it is more honest. And the effect seems to be a net positive if measured along the cold hard axis of productivity and material wealth.
Hard-working or risk-taking? (Score:2)
Americans are "lazy" compared to Asians, at least in terms of hours worked. However, a lot of total hours worked is neither necessary not sufficient for business success. Being in the right place at the right time is both necessary and sufficient, coupled with sufficient competency in the right areas.
Oh, right (Score:2)
He would like to treat his workers the way we're treated here.
Why are there no secretaries in companies any more? Because they were all re-titled "administrative assistants", and labelled "management". Then, like the rest of us, they could be told "whatever it takes", and worked as many hours as management wanted, and they don't have to pay overtime.
Some moron above posted "they'll tell you how many hours a week you work".
%^&*(#$%^&*(#$%^&*)P$%^&*#$ You, personally, are a scum-sucking scab,
First you get the sugar, then you get the honey... (Score:2)
"You go bust in America, you get another chance. In Europe, you're dead."
By "you", he means "capitalists attempting to exploit the workers to make more than their share."
Interestingly, the exact opposite situation seems to obtain for the workers themselves. That is, if a worker goes bust in Europe, they get another chance. In America, they're dead. Possibly literally.
Reading these comments, I'm amused (Score:3)
Nothing new, but I always find it funny here how so many Americans and Europeans like to point out each others' shortcomings, convinced that it demonstrates the other group is living in a hellhole.
Smarter (Score:2)
the word you were looking for is "smarter". They smell your bullshit and they're not buying it.
As a kid I could be tricked into working *really* fucking hard for *really* low pay. Took a long time to grow out of that. My kid fell into it too, really pissed me off.
As an American you're taught from day 1 that your life isn't valuable and the only thing that makes it valuable is hard work.
work yourself to death for "the man" (Score:2)
That's just how corporations want it. Americans work themselves to death over fear of losing their jobs ~ overseas ~ while wages stagnate (when compared to inflation), benefits erode, taxes increase, comfortable retirement is a myth for most of America, while the oligarchs get richer and richer. The ruling donor class uses this wealth to buy off our electeds to pass laws for them to pull food from our mouths to line their pockets. And yet we continue the support them with our votes and villainize unions.
A Rich guy telling others to work harder. (Score:2)
A Rich guy telling others to work harder so he can make more money. Europe has a better life / work system than America,
Alors~ (Score:2)
Cette chose, ce n'est pas vrai!
Mais, oui, il ne peut pas le faire.
So what? (Score:2)
Some people want to enjoy their lives, rather than just work. They will have fewer things - so what?
Is this actual hours worked? (Score:2)
Most Americans "go to work" for the alloted time, but half of that is sitting on the toilet, browsing the web and talking with co-workers. I guess if you work for amazon then that isn't the case because they won't let you go to the bathroom for more then X amount of minutes so Jeff can get another yacht. So just the amount working doesn't count. I know eastern europeans (generally) work harder than Americans
My question is (Score:2)
What is this guy trying to sell to Americans?
I'm a Texan. I used to live in Norway. (Score:2)
I lived in Norway for about 14 months. I used to have a Norwegian girlfriend. I have a bunch of Norwegian pals I still go visit every couple years or so (sometimes they come to me). I converse with them over Signal a lot using monologues. So, we have 2-3 conversations a week. First, it's required to take more vacation time in Norway (5 weeks, I believe). I also notice my friends seem to have more leeway from their bosses to take time off.
One of my friends works for the state in one of the southern cities
Not a compliment to Americans (Score:2)
"I like wage slavery," says the oil tycoon who wants to treat labor as a cheap alternative to automation and human dignity.
Seems like turgid thinking. (Score:2)
He's moving some assets into US companies because they're innovative. Fair enough.
He thinks they're innovative because they've got more hustle. OK. That's almost circular.
He thinks they've got more hustle because Americans work longer hours. That doesn't follow at all.
Sometimes you work longer hours because the boss forces you to, and you are giving him as little for the time as possible. Sometimes you work longer hours because you're disorganized, bad at planning and managing your time. I've seen that
Tomeeto, tomaato (Score:2)
You say less hard working, I say harder to exploit for your gains.
Per-capita GDP (Score:2)
Interesting. The per-capita GDP of Norway is higher than that of the United States, according to [1]this [countryeconomy.com]. So maybe Americans' hard work doesn't pay off?
[1] https://countryeconomy.com/countries/compare/norway/usa?sc=XE34
Re: (Score:2)
If it works for them, are they wrong?
Less "Worked-Hard" (Score:5, Insightful)
There, FIFY.
It's illegal in Europe to work people like people are worked in the US. That's why Americans are worked so much harder than Europeans.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Indeed. Forcing somebody to work more than 10h/day and 50h/week counts as assault and can land you in prison in some countries in Europe.
He is right that the gap between the US and Europe gets larger though: The US is losing its middle-class and everybody is getting poorer and poorer (excluding the rich). The same does not happen in Europe.
Re:Less "Worked-Hard" (Score:5, Insightful)
The numbers do not support your assertions. The middle class in the US just doesn't live in cities anymore. And their makeup isn't what their cohort would have predicted 30 years ago. Trying to send everyone to college was a mistake. It created an oversupply of office workers and an under supply of blue collar workers. The problem is that when you miss on trying to get an office job, you don't fall into blue collar work. You fall into retail/service work that pays little more than minimum wage. So what is happening is that some lower class people took the place of middle class people because they have a trade and the college grads don't. This is why top down economic policies don't work well most of the time. Pushing things out of balance usually doesn't work because there is a reason the balance was where it was. Also, the average American makes 75% more than the average European. 30 years ago the average American and average European made the same amount. You really think that doesn't impact your quality of life? Seriously, I have to get used to a (very noticeable) lower standard of living when I go on vacation in Europe.
Re: (Score:2)
> Seriously, I have to get used to a (very noticeable) lower standard of living when I go on vacation in Europe.
Exactly! No SUVs and a lot of them without even cars. People have to take public transit or ride their bicycles.
No yard and tiny apartments.
Re:Less "Worked-Hard" (Score:4, Insightful)
And yet the happiness measures are stellar in the EU, and the underclasses in the US continue to be abused by health care costs, their transportation costs/insurance, insane housing values because the market is both usurious and bought up by corporate real estate, and the millionaire+ class has fudged the tax code so that only they win.
The EU has control of the destiny of tech because the US Congress is bought-off by the tech companies, and the economy has its lips to the shadow economics of the oil cartels, domestic and foreign.
In the US you have to work harder than hell because success mandates considering only economic terms. Quality of life is second, third, if it's even considered at all. Serfdom has been re-invented.
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
The EU has done a much better job on healthcare than the US for sure. Pretty much everywhere has done a better job on healthcare That doesn't mean the EU has done better when it comes to workplace regulation. And you can't use the overall happiness scored to support that assertion. Living somewhere with much better healthcare and somewhat lower workplace quality would still result in a much higher overall level of happiness. To do what you want, you would have to somehow try to control for the effects o
Re: (Score:2)
Can't tell where you work or live, and so I'll make the remark that you're wrong as a guess that you're an American. So am I, but have traveled to and have many colleagues in the EU.
Entrepreneurship isn't an end-all. Not all want to become a capitalist. Benign capitalism has become an oxymoron. It's all all about consumerism, At each turn, microservices suck the micropayments diluting what taxes take. I don't decry taxes-- we need them. Taxation vexes everyone.
The Norwegian Bankers want return on revenue.
Re: (Score:3)
Yes I live in the US but have also lived in Europe. I am not disagreeing with your conclusions (that you might have intuitively right). But even if your conclusion is correct, your statistical model to support it is wrong. You can't do a statistical analysis without accounting for confounding variables. The happiness in Europe might be partially a result of workplace regulation. It's a good hypothesis. But you can't look at higher happiness level and then take any difference between Europe and the US
Re: (Score:2)
Happiness is not the result of a statistical model. Statistics say, by survey, that the EU is overall happier, in some members, leading the freaking world.
The human condition is tough to assess, because there are seven billion+ opinions on any given day. For purposes of argument, let's say there are some general reasons that are stated in varying surveys. No one says any of the EU member happiness is total and 100% bliss. People squabble-- see opinions.
The generalizations, made by comparison, stick to the w
Re: (Score:2)
Yeah, because EU people have more important priorities than a huge car and/or a huge house. Quite the shocker...
Re: (Score:2)
Hmm I have a house, a garden (not a yard), a bicycle, no car and regularly use public transport.
Not really sure what the problem is.
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
This is the same kind of reasoning, i.e. "the natural order of things," that Jan Smuts used for his "holism" theory in order to justify apartheid in South Africa in the late 1940s. Yeah, that's after WWII & the holocaust shocked the world.
Or perhaps the USA should listen to corporations & do what the Somoza regime in Nicaragua did; keep 95% of the population illiterate so that they could be forced to work as farm labourers for corporations & wouldn't get any ideas about upward mobility, bette
Re: (Score:2)
> Also, the average American makes 75% more than the average European. 30 years ago the average American and average European made the same amount.
and ofc you will back that colorful statement with numbers.
> You really think that doesn't impact your quality of life? Seriously, I have to get used to a (very noticeable) lower standard of living when I go on vacation in Europe.
nonsense. where have you been on vacation lately, in ukraine? maybe you are not earning enough after all, or you are being cheap with your vacations just because?
by the way, all those "service/work that pays little more than minimum wage" which are the majority of the workforce in the us couldn't afford a flight to europe even if they had the free time to enjoy vacations to begin with, which they don't.
Re: (Score:2)
> Seriously, I have to get used to a (very noticeable) lower standard of living when I go on vacation in Europe.
You are joking, right?
Sure, there are some very well-off places in the United States. But there are also plenty of [1]awful, depressed places [bloomberg.com] with terrible standards of living in the United States.
The disparity in Europe is less. I've been to cities in seven European countries and in all of them, the standard of living seemed comparable to a reasonably-prosperous North American city.
[1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-02-26/maps-of-the-most-distressed-communities-in-the-u-s
Re: (Score:2)
> Indeed. Forcing somebody to work more than 10h/day and 50h/week counts as assault and can land you in prison in some countries in Europe.
Funny...that's not something I've ever run into my whole career.
There have been a very FEW long nighters here and there when we had to get something out the door, or maybe servers/database went off line....
But those were extremely rare occasions...which I could likely count on both hands all my life and still have fingers left.
No one holds a gun to your head to work ou
Re: (Score:3)
Ah, the infamous misquote of John Steinbeck springs to mind, "Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat, but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires."
Re: (Score:2)
> Just takes mostly determination.
> well whats your excuse then?
Not sure what you're on about...
I'm actually quite happy with my life so far....
Sure, everyone could ALWAYS use a bit more money, but right now, I really want for nothing, I live well, eat well, have disposable income to afford the toys, travels and hobbies I want....
How about you?
Re: (Score:2)
I think it's more of a monopoly problem in the US, all the tech companies siphon cash and it leaves the region. A few decades there were a lot of local businesses that would circulate the cash regionally, now it goes straight into a billionaires pocket. The worst is now the middle class can't afford to buy a house, because of stupid idiocy. All the while the national debt increases. But there won't be change because people prefer the status quo, and everytime people have a reason to change the government st
Re: (Score:2)
> The US is losing its middle-class and everybody is getting poorer and poorer (excluding the rich). The same does not happen in Europe.
Please state your source, I have no data, but my observation is that the middle class is disappearing in both the US and Europe at about the same rate.
Re: (Score:2)
You are probably thinking of the UK. That is not Europe anymore and never really was.
Re: (Score:2)
Nope, I was not thinking of the UK. (Which is still in Europe, BTW, just not in the European Union)
Re:Less "Worked-Hard" (Score:4, Funny)
>> Forcing somebody to work more than 10h/day and 50h/week
> Except there is no force. If you don't like the hours, choose a different job.
> The difference between America and Europe is that in America, people can decide for themselves how much of a life-work balance they want.
> In Europe, the government makes that decision for you.
Exactly. The job description states exactly how many full time hours you'll work.
It's simple as reading the job description!
Re: (Score:2)
You're going to trust they don't alter anything after you're hired?
Re: (Score:3)
I'm going to trust that I can alter it, too, by finding a different job at any time.
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Good luck. Hope you have enough put away that you don't need to worry about food, or medicine, or rent. You know, JUST in case there aren't as many jobs to choose from as you thought.
Re: (Score:2)
> Good luck. Hope you have enough put away that you don't need to worry about food, or medicine, or rent.
In fact, I do. Because I've worked diligently all my life, and save for retirement, instead of spending every penny on iPhones and avocado toast.
Re: (Score:2)
Say you put away enough to last six months with no income.
What happens if you can't find a new properly paying job for a year? Then what? Do you take whatever you can get once your funds dry up, so you can no longer put anything aside to try again?
Re: (Score:2)
Your entitlement and narcissism is off the charts. You should run for office.
Re: (Score:3)
> Are you stupid enough NOT TO?
Let me guess a few things about you, judging by your tone.
1. You've never had a medical or family emergency that put a significant dent in your savings.
2. You have enough disposable income to be able to afford to buy food in bulk.
3. Your job pays high enough for you to not rely upon high-interest sources of credit.
4. Your boss is not a low-level manager with authority to impose upon you unrealistic expectations of your schedule or hours worked.
5. Your parents never went to jail.
Re:Less "Worked-Hard" (Score:4, Funny)
Are you saying "Pray, they don't alter it any further..."?
Re: (Score:2)
> You're going to trust they don't alter anything after you're hired?
Given the legal climate in America - yes. Altering my existing job description without my knowledge could make me a very rich man.
Re: Less "Worked-Hard" (Score:2)
Sounds like you're not in a "right to work" state.
Like so much doublespeak, "right to work" means something different than it appears: "employees at mercy of employers".
Re: Less "Worked-Hard" (Score:2)
Most of my employers have known so little about how to do what I do that they don't know how to tell good from bad, and consider all employees plug-replaceable.
Re: Less "Worked-Hard" (Score:2)
If they really can't tell then either:
1) They're doomed as a business
2) You're overestimating your own ability
Re: Less "Worked-Hard" (Score:2)
Today I learned Nixon was president 15 years ago
Re: Less "Worked-Hard" (Score:2)
People keep saying that but the numbers disagree.
[1]https://fred.stlouisfed.org/se... [stlouisfed.org]
[1] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEPAINUSA672N
Re: (Score:3)
> Each year I am honing and adding to my skills, which increases my value, which increases the salary I demand.
In other words, wages don't keep up with inflation so you have to get a "raise" to keep up. Which doesn't help starting wages increase to match inflation for people entering the workforce.
Re:Less "Worked-Hard" (Score:5, Insightful)
> The difference between America and Europe is that in America, people can decide for themselves how much of a life-work balance they want.
> In Europe, the government makes that decision for you.
Oh no how terrible, the government says I have to be treated well no matter who I work for.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
It isn't that the government says you have to be treated well so much as the government tells the company and you what constitutes being treated well, generally without consulting either.
The term where I come from is "malice ridden do-gooder." The attitude is "I'll make you a better person even if it - literally - kills you."
It's one thing to say you can't be forced to work overtime. It's an entirely different thing to say you're not allowed to, even if you desperately want to .
Re: Less "Worked-Hard" (Score:2)
i imagine there is the same "opportunity" for europeans to participate in the free labor market as illegal immigrants have in the US.
specifically: paid peanuts with no benefits for hard menial labor. if you want to work without "da gummint" interfering, there are always options. i could use a new shirt anyway, and that's five cents that can go to an asian child.
Re: Less "Worked-Hard" (Score:3)
I don't know if this should be modded Funny, Insightful, Flame bait, or Troll. I mean, you are telling the truth.
Re: (Score:3)
> It isn't that the government says you have to be treated well so much as the government tells the company and you what constitutes being treated well, generally without consulting either.
it's called "social dialog", it's usually a negotiation between legislators, unions, industry associations and other institutions, and ofc the opposition. ofc it's far from a perfect dialogue, sometimes a government with absolute majority may even steamroll over it, but saying "generally without consulting" is just wrong, and this is exactly the reason why labor conditions and protections are much better in europe than in the us.
so people produce a bit less and work a bit less? cry me a river. they also hav
Re: (Score:2)
so, just to be clear, the fact that europeans live longer in general than americans, is that because of socialism, communism or tyranny? do you notice how ridiculous that sounds?
in fact, the u.s. in particular is at the bottom of the list in life expectancy in the world, maybe you guys could get a bit less obsessed with radical darwinism, chill a bit, adopt just a few socialist basic ideas and actually live longer, and if you have to believe statistics, happier lives.
unless you are rich and don't give a fuc
Re: (Score:2)
Hard and fast rules that don't allow for flexibility are bad. They force everything to the mediocre middle which is exactly the effect they guy in the article is calling out. Yes, it protects workers who don't want to work harder, but it also limits the ones who do. It prevents exploitation but it also prevent people who want to excel and go beyond. The system in America leaves it up to the worker. You can choose to not excel at anything and just coast through and be same as everyone around you or you can c
Re: (Score:2)
> Hard and fast rules that don't allow for flexibility are bad. They force everything to the mediocre middle which is exactly the effect they guy in the article is calling out. Yes, it protects workers who don't want to work harder, but it also limits the ones who do. It prevents exploitation but it also prevent people who want to excel and go beyond. The system in America leaves it up to the worker. You can choose to not excel at anything and just coast through and be same as everyone around you or you can choose to go well beyond and make yourself stick out to move up.
Or, you can go above and beyond and never be promoted because you provide so much extra value for free.
Re: (Score:2)
For most of history there's been more workers than jobs. Covid amplified things, between people retiring early, and/or, somewhere in the range of 1% (additional) of the population dying in a single year. These kinds of "worker leverage" situations only arise perhaps once in a generation.
Re: Less "Worked-Hard" (Score:2)
1%? that's the problem. those are rookie numbers!!! let's bring that number up for great worker justice! when life gives the proletariat lemons, they should make lemonade. the black death did wonders for worker pay!
Re: (Score:3)
> Except there is no force. If you don't like the hours, choose a different job.
Unless all jobs of type X use the exact same hours.
This reductio ad absurdum you use is stupid, no offense. "Choosing" another job is an exception, rather than the rule. In most cases, people get whatever jobs they can, rather than whatever jobs they choose.
Re: (Score:3)
Only in the sense that the mugger who says "your money or your life" has given you a choice. In many American job markets, it's muggers all the way down.
Re:Less "Worked-Hard" (Score:4, Insightful)
Except as labor standards drop, your choice is another job that does the same thing. About 17% of American workers don't have fixed hours or guaranteed workdays, which makes planning for work/life balance a farce, and the old standby of getting a second job to make ends meet is impossible.
73% of young Americans live paycheck to paycheck, 20% of whom have no savings at all and many of them have to spend 50% of their income on housing. This means they don't really have the ability to quit their job and look for another job where working conditions exceed the minimum legally allowable standards. Which is why legally enforced minimum standards are important. We need those young people to step up and start making babies.
Fertility rates have dropped in the US from roughly replacement (2.1 children/woman) to a catstrophically low 1.6. The US population would already be contracting were it not for immigration. Now a lot of this is social changes -- women choosing to delay childbearing to start a career. But consider South Korea, which has the lowest fertility rate in the world at 0.8. They're a much more conservative society than we are so it's not changes in attitudes that's driving that. The reason their fertility rate is so low is that they take people in their prime childbearing years and work them like dogs, in return for little prospect of economic security.
Don't you think if those young Koreans would quit their job and choose a higher paying job that gives them more leisure time if they could?
When I started working in the 1980s, getting your first job was like stepping onto an escalator that would carry you up to higher economic status. It's not like that now for the youngest generation of workers; it's more like stepping onto a treadmill. When we start to look to that generation to replenish the US population, our fertility rate is going to sink like a rock. The only way to keep the country running will be to open the immigration floodgates.
Re: Less "Worked-Hard" (Score:5, Insightful)
Of course there is force.
When your basic needs are tied to employment then you have to be employed to have them met.
Thanks to ongoing improvements in productivity, less work must be done by humans to provide for those needs than ever before, but the owning class has sucked up all of those improvements so that they can make ever more money instead.
If employers are allowed to run off with all those profits and make workers work longer and longer hours then there will be more and more unemployed people whose needs aren't being met. This can, does, will, and will continue to have negative effects on everyone but the ultra wealthy.
Therefore it is not in the best interests of The People to allow it to continue.
The government's job is to ensure the welfare of the people, and if it can't do that then it's worthless at best.
Restricting the number of hours an employer can require you to work is therefore in everyone's best interests, since even the wealthy will lose if the system collapses. They are simply too stupid to realize this.
Re: (Score:2)
Getting ahead because of hard work is shunned in the corporate world. It's all about who you know and who you are related to. If you try to start your own business, you might do ok, until the next government inspired recession hits, let's just raise those interest rates to "curb inflation" and kill the economy at the same time.
Re: (Score:2)
And this also shows why many in the US we are obese and less healthy. Many people have no time to eat healthy food. Only the very well off can. That is one of the reasons why many people in poor neighborhoods tend to be heaver and have a shorter life span.
Re: Less "Worked-Hard" (Score:2)
This is pretty much the same as every country that doesn't have a famine problem. There are plenty of fat people in less developed countries. Sugar in particular is very cheap in central and south America.
Re: (Score:3)
On average, the working week in the USA is on a par with poorer eastern European countries & some south American ones. See: [1]https://worldpopulationreview.... [worldpopul...review.com]
Meanwhile, other OECD countries are re-discovering the benefits of 32 hour working weeks; fewer hours, same or better productivity, & better lives.
Additionally, Norway's rate of child poverty is at 6.7% while the USA's is at 20.4%: [2]https://www.statista.com/stati... [statista.com] & Norway's productivity per capita ($100.3/h) is waaay higher than the
[1] https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/average-work-week-by-country
[2] https://www.statista.com/statistics/264424/child-poverty-in-oecd-countries/
Re:Less "Worked-Hard" (Score:5, Interesting)
Additionally, working hard doesn't necessarily mean being more productive either. For example, Norway's productivity per hour worked is estimated at $100.3 whereas the USA's is at $73.7. That's quite a big gap from anyone's perspective. I guess Norwegian workers are just better at it. In fact US workers are behind Ireland, Norway, Switzerland, Luxembourg, & Denmark in productivity. And guess which countries have better quality of life* ratings than the USA?
*Not to be confused with the materialistic, vacuous "standard of living" metric.
Re: (Score:2)
Perhaps that's *why* US workers need to put in more hours, so that they get the same total productivity out of a work week.
Re: (Score:2)
Yep, amazing what a month of guaranteed vacation and a good work life balance can do.