ID is the solution, now lets find some problems. As for a solution to boats crossing illegally there is no need for an ID. Border enforcement would be the solution to that.

All the immigrants coming here was fixed by the imposition of UK Brexit Sovereignty Borders!!! (As sold to the gullible public by their betters!)

I expect this will go over as well as Maggies Poll Tax.

That ended well.

one thing that would help is safe routes to apply for asylum but they closed all of those. If you've failed an application you are much less likely to try and get in other ways and has much more legal heft to kick you out if you do try and illegally enter. But hey sensible ideas never a strong point of populist politicians abetted by a rubbish FPTP voting system...

"abetted by a rubbish FPTP voting system" - Hear, hear!

Careful what you wish for as that could result in a nice chunk of Reform MPs. At the moment FPTP is the only thing keeping them out of power.

> rubbish FPTP voting system

Ssh. The amount of brown-nosing going on at the moment, they'll make the change - to an electoral college (it worked for DT, it'll work for us) and we'll really be screwed.

@Darkedge

"one thing that would help is safe routes to apply for asylum but they closed all of those"

There is a safe route to claim asylum. If this is the first safe country you land in from your designated unsafe country then you can apply for asylum and we must accept. If you mean economic migration there are legal routes, as proven by various friends and neighbours from around the world.

"If you've failed an application you are much less likely to try and get in other ways and has much more legal heft to kick you out if you do try and illegally enter."

The right and legal heft to kick out illegals is not based on how accessible your entry system is. Those are two very detached aspects of handling immigration.

"But hey sensible ideas never a strong point of populist politicians abetted by a rubbish FPTP voting system..."

Sensible is achieved elsewhere. They enforce their border.

"Sensible is achieved elsewhere. They enforce their border."

Pray tell, where is this utopia of enforced borders, no identity rules and zero illegal immigration? It sounds most heavenly.

@ChodeMonkey

"Pray tell, where is this utopia of enforced borders, no identity rules and zero illegal immigration? It sounds most heavenly."

Interesting you say zero illegal immigration because you cannot discuss what was said. However Australia has been very successful at stopping illegal arrivals by small boat. The US has just given a fantastic demonstration of open border (Biden) vs border enforcement (Trump) with a stunning leap in numbers falling to stunning lows.

But Mme Junky. The nunber of arrivals by "small boats" is a drop in the ocean compared to the total number of illegal immigrants within our "enfirced borders" n'est pas ?

@ChodeMonkey

"But Mme Junky. The nunber of arrivals by "small boats" is a drop in the ocean compared to the total number of illegal immigrants within our "enfirced borders" n'est pas ?"

To help with your confusion-

Title or the article- "Privacy activists warn digital ID won’t stop small boats – but will enable mass surveillance"

From the article-

Rebecca Vincent, interim director of Big Brother Watch. "It will not stop small boat crossings, and it will not deter those intent on using non-legal means of entering the country from doing so. But digital ID will create a huge burden for the largely law-abiding 60 million people who already live here and insert the state into many aspects of our everyday lives."

For illegals in the country anyway an ID card will not help, and considering one of the primary problems the government is having is getting rid of these criminals the problem is not restricted to identifying them.

Your suggestion is that we ignore the masses of illegal immigrants who remain within our sovereign secured borders? For shame Madam! There are already too many of the hoi polloi. Illegal ones should be removed! Currently they circulate with impunity! This is nonsense! Why are you only worried about these few who arrive by dinghy?

@ChodeMonkey

"Your suggestion is that we ignore the masses of illegal immigrants who remain within our sovereign secured borders?"

If you believe that I suggest you go back to my comment, maybe get someone to help you read and understand it, and then come back with a response that makes sense to the conversation.

"Illegal ones should be removed!"

To help you I quote my comment you are replying to-

For illegals in the country anyway an ID card will not help, and considering one of the primary problems the government is having is getting rid of these criminals the problem is not restricted to identifying them.

I fail to see how people are going to be disincentivized to risk small boat crossing to get to the UK just because they will require digital ID to work once they get here.

Surely under the existing rules they cannot get legal work without a visa or national insurance number. And if they are they using someone else's visa or national insurance number to get work, how will a digital ID stop that happening?

HMRC should already be able to detect if one national insurance number or visa is being used to work multiple jobs and then an investigation launched if that looks suspicious activity. And if the people coming over are working cash in hand jobs then a lack of digital ID won't make an difference to that person.

Problem is that the UK has already become the USA in that respect where people are already working multiple jobs to get by....

Mostly it effectively removes any excuse employers have about the difficulty of checking right to work. That would have to be coupled to an enforcement operation, which involves officials on the ground and can't be replaced by some magic cheap AI.

"Mostly it effectively removes any excuse employers have about the difficulty of checking right to work"

Nope. An employer would need access to the National ID card database to validate the ID card and its holder. This will be complicated. And expensive - too expensive for jobs paying the minimum wage. I doubt a window cleaner (say) will walk around with a biometric scanner supplied by the likes of Crapita to check Nigel from Folkestone really is who he says he is.

> biometric scanner

They'll just have us tattooed with a QR code. You'll be frogmarched to the local supermarket to be IDed by the checkout machine.

Don't forget to to add a descriptive coloured triangle below the QR code for easy identification.

Employers have long since been able to ask for NI number (fairly necessary for tax purposes!) so although this is not a defacto "right to work", they can use that number to check up on the person (if the person does not bring in the needed supporting documentation).

So if someone has NI number but no other supporting docs, a few hoops for employer to go through in contacting govt agencies, but not exactly onerous...

I fail to see how people are going to be disincentivized to risk small boat crossing to get to the UK just because they will require digital ID to work once they get here.

They're not coming here to work. The Daily Heil says they're coming here for free council houses, all-expenses paid stays in five-star hotels, to rape our women and get brain transplants on the NHS.

ID cards will stop all of this. They'll fix the economy, solve the national debt and put that uppity Mr. Putin in his place too.

Surely under the existing rules they cannot get legal work without a visa or national insurance number. And if they are they using someone else's visa or national insurance number to get work, how will a digital ID stop that happening?

You do know there are plenty of employers who are more than happy to pay people in cash in hand: no income tax/NI or ID. No questions asked. And no paperwork.

Exactly. Remember the Chinese cockle-pickers who drowned some years ago. Do you think requiring you and I to have (and pay for, no doubt) ID cards would have stopped their gang-masters from smuggling them into the country, and exploiting them?

The people "working illegally" aren't the problem, it is the people who exploit the most vulnerable in society. It's not the people desperate enough to risk their lives on a dangerous channel crossing in an unsuitable vessel, it's the people who take their life savings and put them on those boats, it's the people who meet them when they get here and force them into modern slavery, it's the people who go after their family back home for more money for their "upkeep", or to punish if they manage to escape, and it's the billionaires who are stealing all of our money and using the people who are in this desperate situation in the first place as a distraction from this theft.

is probably about right irrespective of flavour: Tory, Tory lite or New Labour third way nongs; Entirely justified I should think.The residual 27% probably think Harold Macmillan (or Wilson) is doing a good job and wonder why there aren't as many sixpences in the pound these days.

Although the Daily Smells † ' assertion of the availability of " brain transplants on the NHS " would leave few excuses for the dribbling defectives that infest Westminster and Whitehall.

† [1]Truly appalling rag with an equally dismal past.

[1] https://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/index.html

Surely under the existing rules they cannot get legal work without a visa or national insurance number.

Indeed. But there is plenty of illegal work around. In Edinburgh, for example, it's driving private hire cars or electric mopeds for delivery companies. Sure, there may be someone who actually has leave to remain and a driving licence associated with the vehicle, but the chances that that's the person actually using it are pretty slim.

This isn't the first time Labour pushed for ID cards: They're just finding another excuse, and no, it won't tackle illegal migration at all.

All that'll happen is the Gov will track people, and a criminal network will form to clone or otherwise steal valid ID's. It's no different to how existing ID's are stolen, including NHS numbers or national insurance numbers, driving licenses, passport numbers etc, and those then get used by those who have no right to them.

Identity theft is a nightmare, and it's not solved by ID cards. And worse is this claim that ID cards will 'solve' anything at all, rather than it introduces more risk - and that's without the information gathering that'll happen. Oh, and the nasty suggestion that the plan is to introduce a social scoring system similar to China's.

So no, the people of the UK generally don't see this as a good thing, and Labour learned nothing from the last time they tried if they think they can fool anyone with the claim it'll do anything at all about illegal migration/small boat migration.

Yeah, but think of the gravy train for hardware and software to run all this snooping, the vendor flies are doubtless already buzzing round this turd. And I'm sure there is a queue of self important baronesses ready to help the US corporations to their fill.

Your focus is misguided.

It's the data fetishists inside the serionr CS that trot this out every time something comes up that's got the government-de-jour worried.

It was ID cards (and it's ever-so-slightly Draconian "National Identity Register" lets-not-call-it-a-database, but it will over cradle-to-grave surveillance) that flushed Labour down the sh**hole last time.

Stamers admiration of Tony Blair should have noted that about him. .

Until something really firm is done about these these data fetishists (who embody the very worst of the UK "Deep state") they will pop up over and over again.

Watch out for the sticky paws of (non-techy) types from GCHQ, HO, MI% &6.

When in doubt cherche-the-PPE graduate. They usually have the arrogance uber-confidence and complete ignorance of why what they want to do won't work to sell this to their "masters"

>It's the data fetishists inside the serionr CS that trot this out every time something comes up

Exactly right. Which is why the single most important thing that the next government must do is reform the CS. If they don't, they'll be in office but not in power, same as Lab are, and Con were.

This isn't the first time Labour pushed for ID cards

You have to remember that the Labour Party is basically made up of social workers, who believe that everything would be lovely if the working classes would just do as they are told. Mind you, that's also the fundamental belief of the Tories (without the social workers) and the SWP (with added fascism and rape), so it's really politicians who are the problem rather than any particular party.

to dig out my old, moth-eaten NO2ID t-shirts, print some more posters and window stickers and get ready for another fight.

ID cards are necessary to fight terrorism, so campaigning against ID cards is supporting terrorism and so NO2ID is a terrorist organization

They're necessary to prevent online child abuse images. Which means anyone opposing ID cards is a paedophile.

Same goes for drug dealers, money launderers, illegal migrants and anyone else who happens to be bogeyman-of-the-week.

Careful you don't go out on a pedallo, or the US military will take you out in totally justified strike.

@that one in the corner

"Careful you don't go out on a pedallo, or the US military will take you out in totally justified strike."

The pedallo packed with drugs?

The pedallo with its own secret island where it invites the powerful to stay.

Extrajudicial killing is still a criminal act, even if the person you killed is a criminal, or engaging in a criminal act themselves. If it's done on someone else's sovereign territory, without their permission, it's arguably also an act of war, and ergo a war crime under the Geneva Convention.

tl;dr; you can't just murder people you don't like, even if they are criminals.

@Elongated Muskrat

"Extrajudicial killing is still a criminal act, even if the person you killed is a criminal, or engaging in a criminal act themselves. If it's done on someone else's sovereign territory, without their permission, it's arguably also an act of war, and ergo a war crime under the Geneva Convention."

And yet it is debatable if the attack was illegal. That is why it is still under debate. Is it illegal to kill terrorists (Trump has designated them a terrorist gang)?

"tl;dr; you can't just murder people you don't like, even if they are criminals."

If they are designated terrorists it becomes more flexible, especially if they are taking action to attack the country. There is plenty to debate around it but the idea of a clear cut these bad guys should not be hurt is for the last administration.

So the Iranian navy sitting off Scotland sinking any boats carrying forbidden alcohol would be fine?

"If you want to overturn the you are on the side of . It is as simple as that."

1. Replace the content inside <> with whatever you wish

2. Treat people as guilty before they are proven so

3. Profit

But only criminals/illegal immigrants/people who walk on the cracks in the pavement will be required to carry ID cards so law abiding citizens won't be affected

You forgot those with an offensive wife, and those wearing a loud shirt between 9pm and 7am.

Anyway... papers please............... hmmm that photo doesn't look like you.... please wait while I call in the police to confirm your identity in the traditional police state way

1. Helicopter ride 50 miles out to sea.

2. Labour camp of your choice for the next 25 years.

3. Being thrown from a black car outside your house/work with 6 bullets in your head/body.

(Sorry Kermit et al)

It's not just who's coming in they can't track, but they also don't know exactly when properly documented people who had visas on entry left the country

All legislation of this type should have a mandatory lead-in phase of at least two years where all MPs and their staff are fully enrolled into the system and only if there are no problems or leaks identified in that period are they permitted to propose an extension to real people.

Perhaps once they have had every detail of their private lives exposed and cloned a few times they may begin to understand why people who have a clue are saying these are bad ideas...then again

Only if you also created a new "Community Policing" unit of black teenagers who were in charge of stop and searching MPs to check their ID - and occasionally accidentally shooting a few of them.

Off you go, boys. You are being conscripted to fight for a despotic regime. Keep the serfs fed with bullshit 'news' about what some celebrity is doing.

Your papers. (No please or sir. This is the British police thuggery in action).

> No please or sir

Now, now. Can't be having that. We'll still be polite: now, mind your step, this can be a bit slippy. Whoopsadaisy, up we get.

We are running out of spare capacity here.

Having blocked porn and failed at every policy, they may actually poll fewer votes than the Green party at the next election if they implement this BS.

Yes, it will not work very well, and often not at all. Yes, it will get hacked. Yes, they will lose all our info.

I think I'll go back to paper, mailing out offers. I suppose going back to pre-internet times might not be so bad. Might need a few more shops though. Come back WHSmith, and all the paper magazines we enjoyed.

...until they can RFID everyone at birth.

Again no.

Data fetishists might have allies within the govt, but data fetishists <> government.

These are the Aholes who saw 11/9/01 as an opportunity to stuff THE PATRIOT Act right down the the US legal system.

Where it's been lodged like a f**king tumour for the last 24 years.

It's the Power of Nightmares.