Smart this, smart that and then dumb as fuck

I don't have Google stuff myself - have hive and it's nightmares, different smart TVs that are no longer getting updates etc

Surely there needs to be a law that smart devices must remain as useful for the average lifespan of whatever device from the past. So a TV should be maintained for 10yrs+, a thermostats 15yrs+, etc

If only we had an industry standard IoT protocol that was open source, inherently secure by design and vendor agnostic so we could avoid all this shit.

mqtt comes in pretty close to that...

Matter is also good, Apache-licensed and backed by Amazon, Google, Etc.

It's a bit more high-level and smart home oriented, the [1] Google developer docs are a good read, especially the "Matter primer" part.

I'd say MQTT is more of a communication protocol, and the "smart" part is server logic.

Matter has more smart-home specific things built into the protocol itself, which takes away a lot of complexity from the controller logic.

And Matter also has built-in support for bridges, which allows you to create a broker device between Matter and any other protocol.

It's neat and i hope it really takes off, especially big manufacturers supporting an open source protocol is a good start.

[1] https://developers.home.google.com/matter/overview

Indeed, connected != smart.

It could even be the opposite...

"Smart devices" are very smart,... for the vendor. They allow you to smartly control your customers.

hive and it's nightmares

I find Hive works fine provided you don't have a hub and use it simply as a wireless thermostat and local controller. In that configuration it should go on indefinitely.

Connecting it to the cloud is where it starts to go weird, particularly if you have the temerity to move house. But you don't have to do that (connect it to the cloud - you might not be able to avoid moving...).

Agree my British Gas Hive controller went out of support after 4 years, as they wanted to switch off servers and they wanted as stupid price to replace it with a model of the same features , told them to do one and used my brain and fingers !

The Veissmann remote controller I got with my current gas combi boiler works as a remote control system; this is basically the bottom level of usability that I would expect from such a thing.

The next level up would be some form of tie-in to my house internet link, to talk to (or be talked to) by an app on my phone. That way I could set up geo-fencing such that when I'm inside a set radius of the house the heating goes from base level heating to the higher "Master is at home" heating level. However to do this I would expect that this functionality would be maintained for the expected lifetime of the device, say about 20 years minimum.

Similarly for "smart" TVs, it would be best were the TV to be manufactured as a simple dumb TV with an add-on box simply plugged into the back of it via USB-C. That way when the smart bits need updating or fixing they can be simply removed from the dumb TV and a replacement unit swapped in. Sadly a set-up like this is expecting far too much from modern electronics suppliers.

It does assume your - mains connected - nest device runs for more than a couple of years before it fails in many interesting ways because the on-board battery no longer retains enough charge. And whilst it is theoretically possible to replace that battery rather than throw away the whole caboodle, good luck finding the right one even on fleabay.

Nest was a great, innovative company. Google has fracked it up from the first day they took over. I look forward to their eventual demise.

Agreed.

The EU have created right to repair legislation for "common household products" which passed last year and is bring rolled out over 2 years (longer warranties, obligations to provide parts at reasonable prices and diganostic software to third parties, etc etc).

They need to add an IoT clause for this which assumes a 20yr lifetime. Language to the effect "any controller which manages domestic or industrial building management services". Heating, HVAC, security, etc.

I've no moral objection to a thermostat having some smarts and being able to check weather forecasts, etc. But it needs to be locally hosted in-device and any loss of external connectivity just falls back to "standard" functionality. Which it sounds like Nest mostly will - albeit with the ominous "unpredictable behaviour" warning. There should be nothing f-ing unpredicatable about a non-smart thermostat. Timer clicks on, heating comes on. Simples.

But of course selling one device per household every 20 years isn't a shiny growth model that keeps vulture capitalists happy. Never mind that it's a perfectly sustainable business (see manufacturers of boilers. Unsexy, but keep the economy ticking over on new-builds and renovations). No no, the clever business boys insist you must have sustained growth. The idea of a business manufacturing a product and selling it for a profit is simply not realistic. Where's the recurring income?

"Surely there needs to be a law that smart devices must remain as useful for the average lifespan of whatever device from the past. So a TV should be maintained for 10yrs+, a thermostats 15yrs+, etc"

In this specific context (or indeed almost any Google device) that sounds simple and reasonable. In practice that means new laws, and new regulations - these are not going to be popular. They would be characterised by industry as an impediment to "innovation" and a barrier to growth, and they would put manufacturer's costs up (and thus end user prices). I can't see that any UK government will pass such laws for those reasons.

There would also be LOTS of complication to any such law as well - are you saying that the physical product needs to LAST that time? And/or that spares must be kept available for that time? Or that the product must be warrantied for that time? Think about the detail here - how will a maker prove the average lifespan of goods in service to any standard of legal proof? Not quite the same thing, but relevant to the debate is the effectiveness of safety recalls. Even where there's a lot of traceability (eg cars) the effectiveness of recalls is poor - around about a third of recalled vehicles get their defect fixed. With white goods subject to a very high profile safety recall and with regulator pressure, it's rare to see more than two thirds of products effective recalled. Lets not get into why that is the case, but just observe that producer knowledge of who has their products is often poor, and degrades quickly over time due to house moves, customer name changes, second hand sale, user replacement etc.

This is not the impediment you imagine. The EU already passed right-to-repair legislation for "common household devices" such as smartphones.

* Warranty guarantees are extended one further year

* Manufacturers must repair devices even after the warranty expires

* Manufacturers must provide spare parts and tools at reasonable cost

* Manufacturers cannot use "contractual clauses, hardware or software" to obstruct repairs (i.e. no parts-pairing)

* Independent repair firms must be allowed to use secondhand or 3D-printed parts

* Manufacturers cannot refuse to repair solely for economic reasons

* Manufacturers cannot refuse to repair a device because it was previously repaired by another company

In Europe, the Sale of Goods Act already offered protection against faulty goods even when the manufacturer's warranty had run out, and lasted 6 years form the date of purchase.

It would be perfectly possible to create a comparable law for embedded/industrial controllers for "building management services" that imposes a minimum 10 year warranty, repairability of parts such as batteries, requires full offline configuration of settings with online services purely augmenting those functions.

Many manufacturers of gas boilers warranty for 10-15 years (on the basis they only supply qualified fitters and assuming you have it serviced annually). Why shouldn't the controller be warrantied for a similar period?

Chucked from the nest.

Heating systems in Europe are unique and have a variety of hardware and software requirements

No, they're standardised. Older systems use 230VAC dry contact closures, newer ones use OpenTherm.

OpenTherm even has an Arduino library (though for the older one, not the 2008 update), and the licence fee (to use to logo and get certified) is far cheaper than HDMI. I see that Nest is a member, so they've already paid that.

I think I see the trouble though. Consumers expect thermostats to work for a couple of decades with no subscription fees. They're not going to buy a new one every couple of years.

I came here to say the same - OpenTherm and "traditional thermostat" are all that's needed, and OpenTherm is very easy to implement - though they would then have to work out how to scale the demand to a percentage (no more than basic school maths).

I can understand the old versions not supporting OpenTherm (no hardware), but it would cost virtually nothing to add it to a new product. I will happily consult to Google for a suitable fee...

Can't speak for European outside UK but the inputs aren't that complex for older equipment

Hot water tank thermostat - open/closed

Boiler - on/off

Three way valve - position 1/2/3

Two way valves on-off

UK has some interesting wiring to manage all these together with strictly mechanical switches but moving from that to individual relays should make it a doddle to implement

And you'll get better results if you report the actual temperature for the tank, and heating dT... because then you can run at a more efficient mode (and that applies to gas as well as well as resistive electrical and more modern options)

Just wait till you're forced to have some heat pump shenanigans to deal with.

Individual room thermostats for underfloor loops.

Feedback controls on loop actuators

Environmental controls for the pump itself

Thermostats on any remaining readiators.

Still have your zone valves running off some sort of timer

And solar panels/batteries tied into all that.

Then make it all work together off whatever 'smart' tariff is supposed to save you thruppence a day.

I do miss gas :-(

Older systems use 230VAC dry contact closures, newer ones use OpenTherm.

Am I right in thinking the US have a low-voltage (24V?) control system? If so, it may be that it's easier to sell retrofit devices to consumers there. I suspect the majority of people would not be keen to tinker with 230V wiring and I can't see many professional installers wanting the post-installation support issues of cloud-connected devices.

I personally don't think tinkering with 230V is a big deal. If you're not comfortable with that, you're also not comfortable replacing light fixtures or light switches.

I reckon you're always going to hire someone to do the work for you if that's the case.

And on the second part: over here it's quite common for installers to put down a cloud-enabled device (thermostats, security devices, doorbells, blinds, solar panels, etc.)

Usually they'll either just make the physical part work and leave the cloud setup up to you, or do the basic setup of making an account and coupling the devices.

Many manufacturers have facilities for installers to do this as well, allowing them to setup accounts for customers and adding new devices to existing accounts without needing credentials for example.

Yes, this is an emperor's new clothes moment for Big Tech. They promise the world, but their entire business model is based on their matt-black-and-chrome-crap wearing out quicker than a cheap bra.

They're not standardised at all.

Some homes will have a boiler that maintains a constant high temperature, followed by a shunt that mixes return water with hot water to feed out the appropriate temperature based on outside temp, and sometimes also an indoor sensor. Then, each radiator will have its own thermostatic, and every underfloor heating circuit will have its own valve.

The mixer valves are available in numerous sizes, and the actuators for residential applications are not standardized in the way they work or in their operating voltage. Moving up to commercial or industrial, the actuators are often a more standard 0-10V control, but not for residential.

There are about a dozen thermostat valve standards, and "smart" thermostats for radiators often come with about half a dozen adapters, with the inevitable outcome that the right one is missing.

Whatever primary heat source the boiler uses, there may be additional ones as well, such as solarthermal to complicate matters further. Often times there will also be backup electric cartridges in the boiler, which depending on the country will be 230V fed from s single phase, or 3-phase 400V. Sometimes neutral will be available, sometimes not. And don't get me started on Norway, it's the definition of special case when it comes to electricity.

Moving away from central heating, you might have electric underfloor heating which requires yet another model of thermostat, direct convective wall mount electric heaters, which delightfully have plug and play interface for thermostats straight on the heater these days, although nobody seems to actually make any except the OEM. Easy enough to hide a relay in a box somewhere though, although some of the original thermostats don't take kindly to external power cuts.. There are houses where primary heating is through air/air heat pumps, probably the only sensible way to control those is copy the infrared signals from their remotes.

Moving onward to passive house designs, the control of shades, windows, and ventilation becomes centerpoint, which introduces a whole new drove of interfaces to interact with.

Indeed, an alien technology of the likes the rest of the world has never seen and will never be able to master.

Oh, so like Apple when it had to relearn the concept of time zones for its iWtachamacallit ?

Not sure that's fair. There are several time zones in the US of A.....

There are several time zones in the US of A

There is Cupertino, and the others you are holding wrong.

There’s only one in Cupertino!

Their reasoning is an obvious lie. They are taking 2 existing products that work in Google Home and Nest apps and deliberately not making them work anymore.

Cheap as chips dumb thermostat does the job for me.

I'm sure some people may have use cases for *needing* to play around with their thermostat settings when miles away from home using an app

I do not have that use case.

You are not alone in this lack of ambition.

Indeed, my German house has no direct thermostats wherever, apart from those integral to the Fernwarme district hot water system; there are individual thermostats on each radiator, mostly set at zero for the rooms we rarely use.

Old-fashioned, I know, but it suits us.

Those radiator thermostat valves come in do many shapes and sizes, but there are "smart" thermostats available, should one be so inclined.

The oldschool radiator thermostats are fascinating technology. Inside they have a wax motor, that is, more or less a piston and cylinder filled with wax. When the air gets warm and the wax heats up, it expands, which makes it press down on a small needle sticking out from the valve, closing the valve progressively the warmer it gets. When it gets colder the wax shrinks and the valve opens more. If the system is otherwise tuned correctly, so that the circulating water has an appropriate temperature relative to outside temperature, the radiator thermostat performs the final fine tuning of room temperature, compensating for minor perturbances such as solar influx, human activity, or giving a boost after the window has been open.

When you twist it from 0 to 4, it adjusts how far away the wax motor is from the needle.

There must be a good way to portmanteau Google into something that reflects their enthusiasm for randomly deprecating things that work but they can't be bothered with any more.

After a certain point it becomes so transparent that you actively avoid their products.

I really regret getting talked into Nest by our plumbing/heating engineer when we had a new boiler install. Unfortunately we had to do this in anger as our boiler packed up about 3 weeks after moving in a couple of years ago and 2 weeks before Christmas so I really didn't have time to do any research. I looked at OpenTherm devices and found a really nice OpenTherm relay/logger to allow me to (pointlessly) scrape metrics and logs from the thermostat messaging but our heating engineer looked at me like I was speaking a foreign language and Nest was all that they would support.

Unfortunately we probably still have to keep the boiler for at least another 3-5 years before it is worth replacing but I would have loved to have gone with ASHP if the old boiler had broken down at a more convenient moment.

Anyway, all of our other home stuff is integrated and controlled by Home Assistant... presence detection using wifi devices via integration with the Unifi wireless controller, even the Amazon Blink cameras have a stable and feature-complete integration (even though auth/credential management of Blink is a joke). But our Nest thermostat for heating and water? Nope. It has been a couple of years since I checked but there was a time where you needed to dump some API credential and subscribe to the Google Developer API platform and even then the hot water schedule/boost was still hidden in a private API.

Nest offers family-approved and robust hardware when compared to the proprietary wall thermostats over the last 30 years... but in terms of software and integration with other platforms (the smart part) total garbage.

Um, no. It has no moving or wearing parts; anything like a battery should be easily replaceable. If not, it's not fit for purpose; money back, please!

This is not technical. This is political. Google sees Europe as a hostile business environment and is doing a "give me my ball back, I'm going home" in revenge.

Looking at age of stuff, thermostat and boiler were new 26 27 years ago when house was built.

TV 15 years old, last pre smart model

Getting worried about replacing, especially if we do not move, may get a heat pump.

As our boiler is a system boiler, and a long lasting model, it would be left in use, so winter would still be warm.

Yes I am considering hybrid heating.

However the one rule I do have is do not get involved with Google only environments such as the Lagia game streamer (if you have played against one you would understand)