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  ARM Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life (Terry Pratchett, Jingo)

Chinese developers rebel against long working hours with crowdsourced tell-all on employers

(2021/10/18)


Chinese software developers have crowdsourced a spreadsheet that dishes the dirt on working conditions at hundreds of employers.

Dubbed WorkingTime, the protest aims to offer transparency regarding how many work hours are expected. Many organisations expect 72-hour working weeks - an arrangement dubbed "996" after the 9am to 9pm, six days a week culture in place at many Chinese companies.

The practice has sometimes been promoted by the rich and famous: Alibaba's Jack Ma [1]publicly stated that employees should actually want to work long hours and a job you love enough to spend that much time doing is a "blessing".

[2]

Chinese courts take a different view. A recent decision [3]found 996-style hours aren't permissible , as Chinese law caps overtime at 36 hours per month and requires compensation for the extra hours. But China is not a workers' paradise, and the practice persists because oversight is limited and independent labour unions are illegal in the Middle Kingdom.

[4]

[5]

The WorkingTime project aims to assist developers looking for work to understand what they're signing up for.

"The opacity of working hours in some companies, working time is a very important factor in choosing an offer," wrote a movement founder on Chinese Q&A site [6]Zhihu .

[7]

The spreadsheet in which workers record how many hours they work a week, job descriptions, breaks and other remarks strongly suggest that grueling hours remain at some workplaces. Others stick to a 40-ish hour working week and add perks like happy hours and subsidized housing.

[8]Fed up with 72-hour, six-day working weeks, IT workers emit cries for help via GitHub repo

[9]Alibaba fires manager accused of sexually assaulting colleague

[10]Forget everything you learned playing Lunar Lander: Chinese boffins reveal secrets of Chang'e 5 probe's touchdown

The anecdotes, visible on an openly accessible [11]spreadsheet associated with the project, provide a similar service for Chinese tech workers to web pages like Glassdoor – giving tips on company culture and requirements.

Some remarks include:

"I often go on business trips. I have been on business for half of a month. I leave work after 10 o'clock every night at the customer's site. I have to work overtime on weekends. The entire department has worked for two years except for the leaders."

"Feel free to ask for leave and lunch time, because it's the field work, whether you are in the company or not, and you can play games casually, regardless of the leader. If you drink too much, it's fine if you don't come."

"Mandatory to keep people on duty every night, compulsory all staff to work overtime every Saturday, no overtime pay, working hours over 10 hours."

"When the daily work cannot be completed, it is necessary to work overtime at home."

"The work pace is fast and the work content is highly saturated. Flexible commute, just do everything."

The WorkingTime project has gone viral, with the founders reporting over ten million views and thousands of entries as of last Tuesday. While the founders remain anonymous, contributors hail from a diverse subset of companies that includes some of China's big tech giants like Alibaba, Tencent, Huawei and Bytedance, as well as multinational companies such as SAP, Dyson, Intel and IBM.

According to the project's GitHub page, lawyers are [12]currently pitching in to sort out legal issues prior to making the project freely downloadable. However, a [13]summary table of data collated daily is already available in Chinese.

Unsurprisingly, the project has stirred some ire. The founders have asked that participants do not apply for editing permission, explaining that "due to malicious editing" such privileges will not be granted. ®

Get our [14]Tech Resources



[1] https://www.theregister.com/2021/08/30/can_china_wean_itself_off/

[2] https://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/jump?co=1&iu=/6978/reg_onprem/front&sz=300x50%7C300x100%7C300x250%7C300x251%7C300x252%7C300x600%7C300x601&tile=2&c=2YW1F60joBJr5kK5vAX7bXgAAAFY&t=ct%3Dns%26unitnum%3D2%26raptor%3Dcondor%26pos%3Dtop%26test%3D0

[3] https://www.theregister.com/2021/08/30/can_china_wean_itself_off/

[4] https://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/jump?co=1&iu=/6978/reg_onprem/front&sz=300x50%7C300x100%7C300x250%7C300x251%7C300x252%7C300x600%7C300x601&tile=4&c=44YW1F60joBJr5kK5vAX7bXgAAAFY&t=ct%3Dns%26unitnum%3D4%26raptor%3Dfalcon%26pos%3Dmid%26test%3D0

[5] https://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/jump?co=1&iu=/6978/reg_onprem/front&sz=300x50%7C300x100%7C300x250%7C300x251%7C300x252%7C300x600%7C300x601&tile=3&c=33YW1F60joBJr5kK5vAX7bXgAAAFY&t=ct%3Dns%26unitnum%3D3%26raptor%3Deagle%26pos%3Dmid%26test%3D0

[6] https://www.zhihu.com/question/491803439

[7] https://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/jump?co=1&iu=/6978/reg_onprem/front&sz=300x50%7C300x100%7C300x250%7C300x251%7C300x252%7C300x600%7C300x601&tile=4&c=44YW1F60joBJr5kK5vAX7bXgAAAFY&t=ct%3Dns%26unitnum%3D4%26raptor%3Dfalcon%26pos%3Dmid%26test%3D0

[8] https://www.theregister.com/2019/04/23/microsoft_github_china/

[9] https://www.theregister.com/2021/08/09/alibaba_fires_manager_alleged_sexual_assault/

[10] https://www.theregister.com/2021/10/15/sloshing_fuel_made_chinese_change5/

[11] https://docs.qq.com/sheet/DVmhnRG15TG1Tb2Js?tab=BB08J2

[12] https://github.com/WorkerLivesMatter/WorkingTime

[13] https://docs.qq.com/sheet/DVmhnRG15TG1Tb2Js?tab=BB08J2

[14] https://whitepapers.theregister.com/



But China is not a workers' paradise

IceC0ld

It is going to take a generation or three to get to the levels of 'freedom' we in the west take for granted

China wants it all, and until recently they had the chance to get there, but increased production, goes hand in hand with increased awareness, so making it harder for the CCP to keep things like what the west are doing FOR their workforce a secret, it WILL change, just don't expect to see anything really dramatic until this generation of leaders is dead and buried, and a newer, younger, more 'aware' leadership take their place, China is a massive market, all on its own, but it is NOT large enough to maintain anything like a market leading profile on that market alone.

They HAVE to sort out the conundrum of the disparity of the present, if they have any chance of being relevant in the future.

And yes, I AM aware we are not always the best example to point to, but we DO have some freedoms we take for granted, that China's workforce WILL desire / require

Re: But China is not a workers' paradise

Anonymous Coward

Totally agreed. decent minimum wage, 5 weeks annual paid leave, fully paid parental leave for both parents, unlimited sick leave, right to join the union of your choice, right to strike, universal health care, just like everyone gets in the West!

Oh wait, the US aren't part of the West, right? So sorry.

Also, seriously, every time the Chinese government raises minimum wages, Western companies aren't the last to complain about how it hit their benefits. So "the West" is hardly a uniformly benevolent actor.

Perhaps we could have a version of this for the west as well

Anonymous Coward

I've worked in more than one company where, er, the interviewer's idea of the number of hours worked in did not match the number of hours people really worked.

Re: Perhaps we could have a version of this for the west as well

You aint sin me, roit

Recently Goldman Sachs first year bankers were talking about an 80 hour per week cap. Not too much sympathy for bankers, but burn out is a problem in the West.

Not to mention junior doctors...

Re: Perhaps we could have a version of this for the west as well

Ordinary Donkey

Call centers.

In a UK call center, don't assume anything you hear before you finish your probation is true.

Re: Perhaps we could have a version of this for the west as well

Anonymous Coward

China's seeing a "lying flat" movement - somewhat similar to the burnout. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tang_ping

Re: Perhaps we could have a version of this for the west as well

H in The Hague

"Recently Goldman Sachs first year bankers were talking about an 80 hour per week cap."

If I was one of their customers I would now be looking for another service provider. Wouldn't fancy the idea of my account being handled by someone working stupid hours. There is a reason folk like lorry drivers have to stick to limited working hours!

"Not to mention junior doctors..."

Another reason to try and stick to a healthy lifestyle and reduce the risk you're going to need them :(

Re: Perhaps we could have a version of this for the west as well

jmch

"Not to mention junior doctors..."

I've never understood the reasoning behind making newly graduated doctors work 36-hour shifts and then get a day and a half off. What kind of care can a patient expect if they arrive at an emergency room and have to be treated by a doctor who's had no sleep in over 30 hours? If there really is a shortage of on-call doctors, at least work on a 12-hour-on 12-hour-off schedule for 3 days rather than 36-on 36-off!

Re: I've never understood the reasoning ...

Anonymous Coward

I really do not know, but I always assumed the reasoning was along the lines of "an overworked junior doctor is - on average - likely to give a better outcome than no doctor at all".

Re: Perhaps we could have a version of this for the west as well

lglethal

You are aware of GlassDoor right? It is mentioned in the article. It is basically this, but as a website.

As for Company and Interviewer disparities, well if you're lucky and going in as an engineer or someone with a similar level of experience and kudos, then you can call in the interviewer and your boss and explain that you signed up for what was sold, and either you will stick to what was sold or there needs to be a salary renegotiation.

Admittedly, if your a graduate, or someone low down the food chain, then your ability to bring this up might be limited, but you should still try to mention it as otherwise your just encouraging. There are usually laws against such behaviour in most sensible jurisdictions, so just mentioning it to HR, can get changes made as they begin shitting themselves about legal consequences.

Just sucking it up is rarely the right answer...

Re: Perhaps we could have a version of this for the west as well

DevOpsTimothyC

You are aware of GlassDoor right?

The problem with most of the common review sites is that they allow the businesses quite a degree of curation.

But I always fired into the nearest hill or, failing that, into blackness.
I meant no harm; I just liked the explosions. And I was careful never to
kill more than I could eat.
-- Raoul Duke